Prime Floyd Patterson VS Prime Jimmy Ellis

[Scypion]

OK, the obvious answer here is Patterson. Still, this seems like a good match up to me. I am talking about the late 1950's Patterson vs, a Jimmy Ellis around 1967. I know that a 33 year old Floyd did beat a 28 year old Jimmy Ellis even though Ellis did get the decision. Patterson fought differently during the first few years that he held the title.

One thing, Patterson often was knocked down early in those late 50's bouts by guys like Roy Harris and even Pete Rademacher. He later got more careful, especially after his first Johansson fight. Not saying that Patterson got better as he got older, but he was a little different kind of fighter. He hit harder and usually knocked out his opponents in his younger years. Later on, Floyd would more often settle for decisions.

So, I believe that there is a good chance that Ellis would have knocked down Floyd early in a prime Ellis vs. a 50's Patterson bout. What would have happened after that? I believe that Floyd gets up and wins a decision and maybe even knocks down Ellis a time or two. Ellis had a great chin, so I think he goes the distance with a young Floyd. Still, I think that Patterson wins despite being knocked down early.

[Scypion]

So, what do you think would have happened if a prime Ellis fought a prime Patterson? I take it you would pick Patterson. KO or decision?

[DrDuke]

In their actual fight Floyd arguably won, so prime Patterson would KO Ellis.

[Scypion]

But Ellis was in his prime when he fought Patterson in 1968. That period was the peak of Jimmy's physical abilities as an athlete and a fighter. Never before or after was Ellis as good as he was during the 1967-68 years. That's when he beat Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, and Jerry Quarry.

Ellis' prime might have lasted longer if he did not fight Joe Frazier in 1970 and Muhammad Ali in 1971. He did beat George Chuvalo in 1971. I doubt if he could have ever beaten Frazier, even if they fought in 1967 or 1968. Outside of George Foreman and Ali, nobody else could beat Frazier either.

Ellis wasted nearly 4 years by starting his pro career fighting in the middleweight division, even though he was over 6 feet tall. With better handling, I believe that Jimmy could have been brought along better, more like Floyd Patterson was, and fighting light heavyweight instead of middleweight. If he was started out like that, maybe Jimmy would have stayed light heavyweight until he could have gotten a title shot in that division.

BTW, Jimmy Ellis did not get stopped until he fought Joe Frazier in 1970. Ellis turned pro in 1961. He had a good chin.

[Scypion]

So, what do you think would have happened if a prime Ellis fought a prime Patterson? I take it you would pick Patterson. KO or decision?

Your original title for this thread neglected to state that you were talking about a prime Patterson. The original wording said "Patterson against a prime Ellis." I guess you made a typo?

But now that you've changed the title, I see what you're talking about. The prime Floyd - the guy who fought in the late 1950s - vs a prime Ellis, who peaked in 1967-68.

To be honest, I don't know what to say. But I am aware that Ellis had a lot of trouble with the aging Patterson in 1968. Lots of observers believe that Floyd actually won. I guess the question is, did Ellis have an off-night against Patterson? Or did Jimmy fight up to the best of his abilities in that bout?

For what it's worth, I do agree that a prime Patterson probably would have beaten the version of Ellis that fought Floyd in 1968.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought that the original title of this thread was Prime Floyd Patterson VS Prime Jimmy Ellis.

I believe that Patterson won their fight in 1968 too. Patterson was 33 in 1968, but as he got older, he became very clever. He would often surprise opponents with punches that seemed to come out of nowhere. He hit harder and more often when he was younger, but he seemed to make up for some of it with his experience and expertise. Floyd even beat Oscar Bonavena when he was 37.

Patterson fought a wonderful fight against Ellis in 1968 and it is a shame that he did not get the decision and the WBA title. I think that it hurt Ellis too because it did not help his popularity. Also, he did not get another title fight until he fought Frazier, and I don't believe that fight did Ellis much good either. I think that Jimmy would have been better off in the long run if Floyd had gotten the decision.

I believe that a prime Patterson beats a prime Ellis by decision, but Floyd was a slow starter and may have been knocked down in the early rounds, but Patterson would win anyway. I would say by KO, but Jimmy had a pretty good chin.

[scorpio83]

Prime Patterson would get the better of prime Ellis with quicker jabs and combinations on the body and head to take a decision in a close fight.

[Scypion]

Prime Patterson would get the better of prime Ellis with quicker jabs and combinations on the body and head to take a decision in a close fight.

I pretty much agree with you. I do think that there is a good chance that Ellis could have knocked down Patterson in the early rounds, but Floyd would have probably won anyway.

On an all time list of heavyweights, I would have Jimmy Ellis just below Patterson. In fact, I believe that Jimmy could have beaten anyone that Floyd beat. Possible exceptions could have been Ingemar Johansson and Archie Moore. If Ellis was aware of Johnasson's big right, then I think he beats Ingemar. As for Moore, I think that Ellis could have beaten Archie on the night that Patterson beat him. A few years earlier, maybe a different story.

Patterson and Ellis both would have also been great light heavyweights, IMHO.

[Ambling Alp II]

I am pretty much on the same page as you and scorpio83.
Would give Patterson the edge if he was in his prime, he was a little past it by the Ellis fight.
I do think that if Ellis fought Johansson three, times, he would have lost at least once. Ellis may have lost to Machen. Strictly going on what actually happened, Patterson should be rated higher; however Ellis was probably better than a lot of people think.

[Scypion]

I am pretty much on the same page as you and scorpio83.
Would give Patterson the edge if he was in his prime, he was a little past it by the Ellis fight.
I do think that if Ellis fought Johansson three, times, he would have lost at least once. Ellis may have lost to Machen. Strictly going on what actually happened, Patterson should be rated higher; however Ellis was probably better than a lot of people think.

I think that both Patterson and Ellis were underrated. As for Machen, I wish that he fought Patterson during the 50's. Not Eddie's fault. Cus D'Amato did not want Patterson to fight Machen. Something about his involvement with the corrupt IBC. Patterson and Machen would have been a great fight during the late 50's. I think that prime Machen vs prime Ellis would have been an interesting match up. There is a couple of new threads someone could start.

BTW, with a little better luck, I believe that Jimmy Ellis could have won an Olympic Gold Medal in the 1960 Olympics. Ellis lost a close decision in the finals of the 1960 Olympic Trials to Wilbert McClure, who happened to be the best middle division amateur boxer of that time. McClure won the National AAU Championship in both 1959 and 1960. He also won the Pan American Games Championship. Wilbert won a bunch of other things as well including an Olympic Gold Medal in 1960.

McClure also beat Eddie Crook in the 1960 light middleweight Olympic Trials. Crook went on to win a gold medal in the 1960 Olympics in the middleweight division. I believe that Jimmy Ellis could have also won the gold in the 1960 Olympics if he could have gotten by McClure.

[Scypion]

I believe that Jimmy Ellis could have beaten Eddie Machen if he fought Eddie when Patterson fought him. If he fought Machen in Eddie's prime in the 50's, maybe a different story. Maybe also a different story if Floyd Patterson fought Machen during the 50's as well. Maybe.

As for Ingemar, he might have knocked out Ellis in their first bout as he did with Patterson and Machen. If there was a second and/or third fight between Ellis and Johansson, then who knows what would have happened. A lot depends on how aware Jimmy was of Ingemar's big right hand.