Who's the UK's Best Ever Super Middle

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:29

Podmore_Birmingham wrote:That’s an excellent point Stu, but the reason I’d have Woodhall ahead of Catley is that he performed with more consistency than 'The Cat' who lost in his first defence against Thobela.

Catley performed well against Beyer and against Eric Lucas the first time around, but Richie made a couple of defenses of the title against decent fighters. But Catley would be excellent one minute and getting knocked out by a former lightweight the next fight - Thobela.

I was a big fan of both men (more so Richie, born in Birmingham and all that!), but Richie gets the nod from me.

I wouldn’t quibble with Catley being ahead of Woodhall on anyone else’s list. It’s subjective, of course.

Tom Podmore.

Fair comment on Catley... the Theobela loss was a bad one. However, not sure Woodhall was Mr Consistent when he had the belt. In most peoples opinion he also lost the title in his first "successful" defence and even suffered a KD against one of the poorest ex world champions in history in Nardiello - then he lost to Beyer.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:32

James,

Collins was apparently sparked by Eastman but that occured when prior to launching a comeback. He had announced his return, think even had a date with TBA planned. Got sparked by Eastman in sparring and scrapped the plans.

Although Collins denied he got sparked - he claims he blackouted during sparring but not due to a punch.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:34

didn't collins retire first of all with some sort of tendon injury. Collins had one hell of a chin, I remember Eubank exploding some bombs on his chin in their fights.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:40

In all truth, there would have been no Collins - as we know him best for taking down the (ageing) best of England - if Eubank had finished him. In their 1st fight Chris had his down heavily and on the verge of a KO. But Eubank had that mental block, that loss of killer instinct after the 2nd Watson fight. Similar thing happened with Thompson. Thompson was a goner, yet Eubank let him surivive too

Collins was a beast. But he could be crude and undisciplined.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:42

You know, I'd completely forgotten that he had Collins down. I want to see the Thompson fight again, because with hindsight, Thompson often used to play possum to sucker people in, and that may be what he did there. Thompson is a canny bastard despite looking like such a clumsy big lug.

Podmore_Birmingham · Post by **Podmore_Birmingham** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:45

On the subject of Eubank-Thompson, it was eight-years ago today that Thompson stopped Eubank, in what would be Eubanks final fight.

Tom Podmore.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 18 Jul 2006, 08:05

jamesmcdonnell wrote:You know, I'd completely forgotten that he had Collins down. I want to see the Thompson fight again, because with hindsight, Thompson often used to play possum to sucker people in, and that may be what he did there. Thompson is a canny bastard despite looking like such a clumsy big lug.

I don't know if it was possom or not, definately had a tremendous recovery rate (Naseem had this also).

I just don't think you can act up the glazzy eye look. Although Eubank didn't have him in as much trouble (although was winning) in the rematch. He did hurt him, but not to the same degree.

fried bread · Post by **fried bread** » 18 Jul 2006, 09:04

anyone seen thompson take a REAL beating?

ie the type of cruel battering with no hope of rallying back

see his fight with Yawe Davis

he looked like he was going to die

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Jul 2006, 09:11

Ezra Sellers gave him a right old shoeing too, though not without taking his lumps himself. This is why I say Haye's power is overrated, Thompson has taken some sound beatings in his career when he was in his prime, yet at 40 he took everything Haye could throw at him for 2 1/2 rounds.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 18 Jul 2006, 09:12

At the time I thought that Sellers knockout was career over. Brutal!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Jul 2006, 09:15

The last shot he hit Thompson with, he looked like he'd killed him, absolutely stone cold punch. Now, THAT'S punchpower.

fried bread · Post by **fried bread** » 18 Jul 2006, 09:17

mad fight, Sellers-Thompson. It was almost a replay of Sellers vs Alex Stewart, another incrdibly wild jackinabox tear up

anyone see Thompson get stopped by Crawford Ashley's jab? T got jabbed in the eye & gave up

some amazing turnarounds though, in his career. best one was the win over Akim Tafer. dramatic

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 18 Jul 2006, 10:53

Thompson had apalling balance which I think often made him appear more hurt than he was. But he was without doubt one of the toughest fighters ever to come from these shores. He took some almighty batterings and still kept coming!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Jul 2006, 10:59

Yes, over the years the balance has got worse, lending credence to the opinion that he is getting beaten up, when in fact, he is often lurching around riding the effects off of shots. When I rewatched his fight with Rothman recently, I was surprised to see that he really wasn't badly hurt at all when he landed that final shot, he was just suckering Rothman in.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 18 Jul 2006, 11:10

Where have you gone Joe Calzagheo?
A nation turns it's lonely eyes on you...
( Woo woo woo )
What’s that you say, Mrs. Robinson
‘Joltin Joe’ has left and gone away?
(Hey hey hey – hey hey hey)

With apologies to the Yankee Clipper

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 18 Jul 2006, 11:20

MightyWarrior wrote:Where have you gone Joe Calzagheo?
A nation turns it's lonely eyes on you...
( Woo woo woo )
What’s that you say, Mrs. Robinson
‘Joltin Joe’ has left and gone away?
(Hey hey hey – hey hey hey)

With apologies to the Yankee Clipper

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Jul 2006, 11:38

MightyWarrior wrote:Where have you gone Joe Calzagheo?
A nation turns it's lonely eyes on you...
( Woo woo woo )
What’s that you say, Mrs. Robinson
‘Joltin Joe’ has left and gone away?
(Hey hey hey – hey hey hey)

With apologies to the Yankee Clipper

Very good.....

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 18 Jul 2006, 11:57

This is moving away from the initial point of this post, but I have to get James Cook's name mentioned.

No, I don't rate him in the top 4 but the way he quietly conducted himself and took all the fights no one else wanted be it at home or abroad speaks volumes for him. Finally got the success he deserved in the last stage of his career winning the British and EBU titles (the win over Piere-Frank Winterstein being a career best for me).

If you get a moment just look through his career record and marvel at the hard path he took. It's a testament to how good Cook was to finish with a winning record. Never a fashionable boxer, he did have his share of setbacks, back like the true pro he was always put them behind him and just get on with the job in hand.

I think this underrated boxer with a deadly uppercut and dignified manner could certainly be considered the best of the next tier of Supermiddles.

states · Post by **states** » 18 Jul 2006, 16:45

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Ezra Sellers gave him a right old shoeing too, though not without taking his lumps himself. This is why I say Haye's power is overrated, Thompson has taken some sound beatings in his career when he was in his prime, yet at 40 he took everything Haye could throw at him for 2 1/2 rounds.

Haye's power is wildly overrated. Sure, he can punch, but you'd expect anyone weighing over 14 stone to crack a bit. How many world-class fighters has Haye beaten at cruiserweight? Gurov is about the only one who could have been described as such, and even then, he was basically a shaky-chinned European level operator. Yes, he's stopping people, but he's hardly laying people out with one shot, which is what you'd expect of a serious puncher. As James says, the likes of Sellers, and even Thompson himself are examples of real punchers.

Haye is talented, very much so, but I just don't see him as the beast of a puncher that he's meant to be. Which worries me, because I'm pretty sure he's fallen in love with his power already, even though he has plenty of ability all round. Maybe he should look at some Hamed tapes......

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 18 Jul 2006, 18:44

Haye was voted the hardest hitter P4P, ahead of Tszyu and Pacquiao

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 25&start=0

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 19 Jul 2006, 01:22

lvlarc_uk wrote:Haye was voted the hardest hitter P4P, ahead of Tszyu and Pacquiao

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 25&start=0

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 20 Jul 2006, 09:08

Joe Calzaghe is Britain's best ever SM.

He would have beaten Benn & Eubank no problem.

southace · Post by **southace** » 21 Jul 2006, 15:09

1 Calzaghe
2 Eubank
3 Watson
4 Benn

An obvious point but Calzaghe has been at the weight for his whole championship career where as the others made their name in the middleweight division before stepping up.
Watson never won at the weight so can't rate him the best but he proved he was superior throughout both his fights with Eubank with only Chris' massive heart pulling him through. Eubank earns his spot above him for those wins alone.
I would give Watson the best chance of beating Calzaghe. Joe is very comfortable setting the pace of his fights and can control any current fighter at his weight but Watson was clever and very tough. He possessed a high guard defence which Joe would find difficult to penetrate and land cleanly against. Particularly if he was pre-occupied with Watson's fine jab. Michael had good power, and although essentially a counter puncher he could set a high workrate too. He had good foot movement. and would be able to stand in front of Joe at times, knowing that he would get a chance to land his own shots. Watson had a 'hit me i'll hit you back' mentality and he would make sure that he was at least holding his own in exchanges. Joe would certainly be caught with shots when opening up with his own. Watson fought that way against Mike McCallum who had nothing but respect for the Londoner after finishing him off in their Middleweight title fight. Think the later rounds would prove crucial. Watson would be very much in the fight and Calzaghe would have to fight hard from rounds 10 - 12. Joe's natural weight advantage could tell here as McCallum's class did with Watson but i would like to think Michael would be able to hold out and nick a decision. . . neutral promoters / judges / referee taken for granted by the way.
Do have to say that Joe's reign has been pretty mediocre for the exceptional fighter he is. Hopefully he'll define his entry into the records by fighting some of the better names out there. One standout win since beating Eubank isn't enough to do that.
Benn's power would have proven futile against Calzaghe as, with Eubank and Watson, Joe has a strong chin.

WayoftheCass · Post by **WayoftheCass** » 21 Jul 2006, 19:52

I can't believe that Benn isn't being mentioned higher than 3rd. I thought he beat Eubank in their rematch. His fight with Watson occurred at Middle when Nigel was still wet behind the ears. He beat a much higher level of opponent than any of the other guys mentioned. Lets forget he beat McClellan (which I still think is the best win ever recorded by a British fighter all be it in rather tragic circumstances). He was a wild brawler at Middle but as a super-middle he became a box puncher. He outboxed Henry Wharton all night, outboxed and then overpowered Nicky Piper, stopped and outboxed Mauro Galvano in 2 fights and I thought outboxed and outfought Eubank in their rematch. He should have quit after he beat McClellan. Apparently he hung around for Roy Jones but I read that Jones thought Benn was too high risk compared to other options at the time and too wild. I don't think that Benn would have beaten Roy but obviously Jones himself saw something there he didn't like.
Even in his wild middleweight days he still recorded great wins over Anthony Logan,Robbie Sims, Dan Sherry was blown away after giving Eubank big problems and losing a technical decision, Doug DeWitt and Iran Barkley.
His last 2 fights with Collins have tarnished his rep. That wasn't the real Benn. McClellan may have been beat but he undoubtedly finished Benn as a major force. He hardly showed up for the Malinga rematch.
I agree that Watson was a better middle but on the whole and certainly at super middle that just doesn't stand up.
Collins never beat any fighter at their peak. Eubank was running down to the end and Benn only took it for the money. Most people knew it was ill advised at the time and he looked a shell of himself in both fights.
Calzaghe I think has recorded the most dominant win in a major fight against a big name foreigner in the UK. But not the biggest. McClellan was a sheer monster. H was the most feared fighter in the sport and most people thought he might kill Benn. And when he showed up he actually lived up to the hype its just that Benn was awesome and defied belief.
If Calzaghe bests a Hopkins, Tarver, Johnson(if he's still got something to offer), Winky Wright or Jermain Taylor then for me he maybe just eclipses Benn's achievments.
People are also saying how Kalamby, McCallum and Graham would have done this and that if they had met Eubank or Benn. But those guys were never any kind of forces at Super-Middle. Their best days were at Light Middle and Middle.
For me 'The Dark Destroyer' is Number 1.....for now.