3-1 Louis
4-0 Tunney
Modern Day "All-Time Heavyweight" Tournament
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I would like to comment about the two matches.
I know everybody is writing UD for Ali and all in his match with Tunney, but I do seem to recall in the 70's Howard Cosell asked Ali what Heavyweights would have given him the most trouble, out of the former champions. He named that Tunney, other than Walcott and Charles, would have given him the most trouble---that and Ali wouldn't comment on Marciano, and said straight forwardly that if he was in the bare-knuckle era he wouldn't have boxed because the great John L. Sullivan would have hurt him and "made me not so pretty".
Myself, at his best, Tunney prolly would only get a SD loss against Ali, but nonetheless he would lose to Ali---but I don't think it would be the easy fight everyone says that it would be.
As far as Tyson/Louis goes, I do believe Joe has the ability to beat Tyson, but then again, Louis never fought a body-punching artist like Tyson, with the exception of Rocky Marciano, with that kind of hand-speed and ferocity. Plus Joe had an iffy chin---possibly the only factor here would be mental and possibly an edge in hand-speed to Louis.
If Joe could survive the first few rounds, he could do it, but like I said with the Foreman fight, it's a huge WHAT IF?
*************************************************************
Scores are still 3-1 Louis, 4-0 Ali
I know everybody is writing UD for Ali and all in his match with Tunney, but I do seem to recall in the 70's Howard Cosell asked Ali what Heavyweights would have given him the most trouble, out of the former champions. He named that Tunney, other than Walcott and Charles, would have given him the most trouble---that and Ali wouldn't comment on Marciano, and said straight forwardly that if he was in the bare-knuckle era he wouldn't have boxed because the great John L. Sullivan would have hurt him and "made me not so pretty".
Myself, at his best, Tunney prolly would only get a SD loss against Ali, but nonetheless he would lose to Ali---but I don't think it would be the easy fight everyone says that it would be.
As far as Tyson/Louis goes, I do believe Joe has the ability to beat Tyson, but then again, Louis never fought a body-punching artist like Tyson, with the exception of Rocky Marciano, with that kind of hand-speed and ferocity. Plus Joe had an iffy chin---possibly the only factor here would be mental and possibly an edge in hand-speed to Louis.
If Joe could survive the first few rounds, he could do it, but like I said with the Foreman fight, it's a huge WHAT IF?
*************************************************************
Scores are still 3-1 Louis, 4-0 Ali
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
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sockdolager
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1455
- Joined: 17 Jun 2005, 08:57
Sorry IrishRufusMurphy, I would just like to take this opportunity to interrupt this intriguing competition for a few seconds...
I started a similar "Dream Heavyweight Tournament" roughly the same time as you, (well actually nearly a month before yours. Mine started on Thursday June 22nd. + Yours started on Thursday 13th July).
You have an interesting alternative format from my tournament and I've noticed that you've commented a few times about how downgraded Murray Worener's supercomputer ("The old NCR315") was compared to today's standards...
Although I would like to comment on you choice of boxers:
THE BRAWLERS/PUNCHERS
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Max Baer
Joe Louis
James J. Jefferies
John L. Sullivan
Ingemar Johansson
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson
***I would agree with most of the picks, but I myself would put Joe Louis into the other category, and replace him with Max Schmeling...***
THE BOXERS/TACTICIANS
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Muhammad Ali
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes
James J. Corbett
Max Schmeling
Jack Johnson
Jack Sharkey
***I would agree with most of this picks as well but I feel that there might be space there for Evander Holyfield or Floyd Patterson somewhere...***
BTW, Why did Joe Frazier and Michael Spinks get a bye into the 2nd round?
Surely you could've taken out one of the weaker BRAWLERS, eg. Ingemar Johannson and replaced him with "Smokin" Joe...
As for Michael Spinks, I would palce any of the named BOXERS as better than him so how come he enters in the 2nd round? I wouldn't even consider him good enough for this 20 man tournament...
I started a similar "Dream Heavyweight Tournament" roughly the same time as you, (well actually nearly a month before yours. Mine started on Thursday June 22nd. + Yours started on Thursday 13th July).
You have an interesting alternative format from my tournament and I've noticed that you've commented a few times about how downgraded Murray Worener's supercomputer ("The old NCR315") was compared to today's standards...
Although I would like to comment on you choice of boxers:
THE BRAWLERS/PUNCHERS
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Max Baer
Joe Louis
James J. Jefferies
John L. Sullivan
Ingemar Johansson
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson
***I would agree with most of the picks, but I myself would put Joe Louis into the other category, and replace him with Max Schmeling...***
THE BOXERS/TACTICIANS
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Muhammad Ali
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes
James J. Corbett
Max Schmeling
Jack Johnson
Jack Sharkey
***I would agree with most of this picks as well but I feel that there might be space there for Evander Holyfield or Floyd Patterson somewhere...***
BTW, Why did Joe Frazier and Michael Spinks get a bye into the 2nd round?
Surely you could've taken out one of the weaker BRAWLERS, eg. Ingemar Johannson and replaced him with "Smokin" Joe...
As for Michael Spinks, I would palce any of the named BOXERS as better than him so how come he enters in the 2nd round? I wouldn't even consider him good enough for this 20 man tournament...
Last edited by Crease on 19 Jul 2006, 11:23, edited 2 times in total.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
That looks like Roger Ebert!Decagon wrote:So was the guy Rain Man was about:
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/sport ... shrunk.jpg=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... -Peek1.jpg
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
ok....................lol
5-1 Louis
6-0 Ali
As far as Louis being in the boxer/tactician group as you suggested, I disagree, Louis did have great skill yes, but he was the all-time ranked puncher by RING magazine, so thus I place him in the brawler/puncher category.
As for Frazier and Spinks being added into the 2nd round, the number of fighters was uneven, so I threw in Frazier (which I should have done in the first place, I just forgot) and threw in Spinks---not that they got a bye on the tournament, just tried to make it even.
And I didn't say Woroner's NCR-315 computer was no good, though it is true by today's standards it's a rather weak piece of machinery---all I said was the TITLE BOUT BOXING computer game, couldn't be as worse off as what the NCR-315 was. Plus this tournament also uses peoples votes to determine someone to move on, but if the votes are too close, I use the computer in a two out of three.
But at the same time, as you nick pick my tournament, I could comment on how Woroner's tournament excluded the likes of Ezzard Charles and other deserving ATG fighters, yet had Jess Willard on there as one of the best champions.
My tournament is only different in a few aspects, that I do have the best of the old, and the best of the modern day----and using a computer simulator in some matches, much like Woroner's tournament he done in 1967.
BUT..........back to the tournament. 8)
Scores are 5-1 Louis and 6-0 Ali
5-1 Louis
6-0 Ali
As far as Louis being in the boxer/tactician group as you suggested, I disagree, Louis did have great skill yes, but he was the all-time ranked puncher by RING magazine, so thus I place him in the brawler/puncher category.
As for Frazier and Spinks being added into the 2nd round, the number of fighters was uneven, so I threw in Frazier (which I should have done in the first place, I just forgot) and threw in Spinks---not that they got a bye on the tournament, just tried to make it even.
And I didn't say Woroner's NCR-315 computer was no good, though it is true by today's standards it's a rather weak piece of machinery---all I said was the TITLE BOUT BOXING computer game, couldn't be as worse off as what the NCR-315 was. Plus this tournament also uses peoples votes to determine someone to move on, but if the votes are too close, I use the computer in a two out of three.
But at the same time, as you nick pick my tournament, I could comment on how Woroner's tournament excluded the likes of Ezzard Charles and other deserving ATG fighters, yet had Jess Willard on there as one of the best champions.
My tournament is only different in a few aspects, that I do have the best of the old, and the best of the modern day----and using a computer simulator in some matches, much like Woroner's tournament he done in 1967.
BUT..........back to the tournament. 8)
Scores are 5-1 Louis and 6-0 Ali
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jezzamundo
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3127
- Joined: 16 Jun 2004, 13:11
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I reckon the final two matches will commence, the votes are more than one-sided enough to not bring the computer into play. The following matches will be:
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes
This is interesting enough, as these fighters have faced eachother, though the formers were passed their best abilities. Holmes was Ali's sparring partner for a number of years, and after Ali vacated his WBA title in 1978 Holmes gained general recognition as the Heavyweight champion. Ali returned in 1980 to face Holmes, but his reflexes were visibly deteriorated and the match was so one-sided that it had to be stopped in the 11th. Whether or not this would be how a prime vs prime Holmes/Ali contest would be, one thing is for certain, Holmes knew how Ali was inside and out, and his jab was arguably greater.
The Ali of the 60's would have out-pointed Holmes. The Ali of the 70's was slower but tough and still hand great hand speed---Larry was the king of the late 70's to mid 80's, 20 successful title defenses, his jab second to none, his speed tremendous---a prime Holmes could very well have edged Ali on points.
***********************************************************
When Marciano faced Louis, The Brown Bomber was ranked #1 and had previously signed on to face Ezzard Charles but The Cincinnatti Cobra opted to face Jersey Joe Walcott again---Louis, though not with the hand speed of old, still had tremendous power and his experience as a fighter more than made up for the difference.
Marciano was deemed crude and green but with tremendous power in either hand, though he was in all reality, deceptively harder to hit than people realised. Some can argue that Marciano was at his peak this very year when he faced Louis, but nevertheless he beat Louis for the shot at Walcott, who had beaten Charles for the championship.
Louis was stopped in the 8th round, after the first seven were close. Joe would later go to say that he felt even at his best he could not beat Marciano, who was the most ferocious pressure fighter he ever faced; ironically Joe admitted that styles like Marciano's was his weakness.
Charles, Walcott both said that Marciano hit harder with one punch than Louis could in combinations. Marciano had tremendous stamina and was extremely tough and determined to destroy his opponent, no matter how much punishment he took; Louis was possibly the best puncher from the waist up, his hand speed was fast, his defense was good, and his power is without question, though his chin is arguable---as such men as Buddy Baer, Tony Galento, Max Schmeling, James Braddock, dropped him. Schmeling and Braddock were not known for their kayo prowess, and Galento had no skills but to brawl, while Baer built his career on wins over questionable opposition.
But one thing is for certain, both Marciano and Louis knew how to climb off the floor to win.
***********************************************************
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Judging by how their actual fight went, as well as Joe Louis' statment that he could never beat Marciano---in all fairness Joe was not at his best, so throw in the fast hands and reflexes and we have one helluva fight.
It would go far into the later rounds, with Marciano being dropped in the middle rounds, but keeps the pressure on Louis. Louis is ahead on the score cards, but is visibly tiring. In the 13th round Marciano is relentless and floors Louis, but Joe regains his footing. Marciano senses his opponent is hurt and attacks Louis, but Louis will not go down so easily. He is giving it all he has, as is Marciano---in the 14th it's more of the same, neither man willing to give up. Both men are visibly drained from the bashing. Going into the 15th Marciano attempts one last major barrage of punches, Louis fires back, but Marciano lands first, Joe left himself open for a huge right hand. He hits the canvas. Louis barely beats the count, his legs wobbly---he manages to stay on his feet, and continues to defend himself. Marciano cracks another huge right hand, the Susie Q, and Louis goes down for the count! It's over, Marciano wins by KO in the 15th and final round!
Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes- MD15
Larry Holmes had beaten Ken Norton. He survived Shavers twice. Outside of that, he did not face fighters of the elite. The 80's was a dry era with such men as Evangelista, LeDoux, Coetzee, Ocassio being the top contenders. Had Larry Holmes been in the 70's he possibly would have beaten many of the top men like Bugner, Lyle, but arguably would have failed against Frazier and Foreman, and maybe even a prime Norton (he was on the downside in 1978). Ali always managed to find some way to win, whether it be by skill alone or by psychology or even improvising new tactics as the rounds went on. His hand speed at his best was super-natural and moved around like a Middleweight. He lacked power, but he made up for it in lightning fast combinations and great endurance. He was very tough. Holmes on the other hand, like Foreman, had great longetivity, as to where Ali lacked in that aspect.
It would be close, with Holmes having to bring the fight to Ali, using all his skills to dodge 'The Greatest' punches, as well as landing his long jab and handing out his share of quick combinations. Ali's hand speed is bad enough for Holmes to contend with, but the foot speed, the head movement, is what Holmes could not cope with. It would be close throughout the fight, Holmes usual lack of "killer attitude" is not evident in this fight, as he is willing to bring the pain to Ali---for he is not a bit psyched out by his idol's tactics. A quick paced fight, action packed from round to round, Ali scores home a decison against Holmes!
***********************************************************
I think this would be interesting as to how this round will determine the greatness of the final round in this tournament. If Louis and Ali wins, we can finally see if Ali's rants of how "Old Joe Louis couldn't whip me" be fact or fiction. If Marciano and Holmes wins, we will see if Holmes statement that "Marciano couldn't carry my jock strap" be correct or not. Or, as with the original computer fight, Marciano could take on Muhammad Ali once again, this time in our day and age, the "rematch of the computer fight". Or it could be the interesting match-up between Holmes and Louis---styles make fights!
Either way, this is a tournament that can't possibly lose, when it comes to making an awesome MAIN EVENT!
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes
This is interesting enough, as these fighters have faced eachother, though the formers were passed their best abilities. Holmes was Ali's sparring partner for a number of years, and after Ali vacated his WBA title in 1978 Holmes gained general recognition as the Heavyweight champion. Ali returned in 1980 to face Holmes, but his reflexes were visibly deteriorated and the match was so one-sided that it had to be stopped in the 11th. Whether or not this would be how a prime vs prime Holmes/Ali contest would be, one thing is for certain, Holmes knew how Ali was inside and out, and his jab was arguably greater.
The Ali of the 60's would have out-pointed Holmes. The Ali of the 70's was slower but tough and still hand great hand speed---Larry was the king of the late 70's to mid 80's, 20 successful title defenses, his jab second to none, his speed tremendous---a prime Holmes could very well have edged Ali on points.
***********************************************************
When Marciano faced Louis, The Brown Bomber was ranked #1 and had previously signed on to face Ezzard Charles but The Cincinnatti Cobra opted to face Jersey Joe Walcott again---Louis, though not with the hand speed of old, still had tremendous power and his experience as a fighter more than made up for the difference.
Marciano was deemed crude and green but with tremendous power in either hand, though he was in all reality, deceptively harder to hit than people realised. Some can argue that Marciano was at his peak this very year when he faced Louis, but nevertheless he beat Louis for the shot at Walcott, who had beaten Charles for the championship.
Louis was stopped in the 8th round, after the first seven were close. Joe would later go to say that he felt even at his best he could not beat Marciano, who was the most ferocious pressure fighter he ever faced; ironically Joe admitted that styles like Marciano's was his weakness.
Charles, Walcott both said that Marciano hit harder with one punch than Louis could in combinations. Marciano had tremendous stamina and was extremely tough and determined to destroy his opponent, no matter how much punishment he took; Louis was possibly the best puncher from the waist up, his hand speed was fast, his defense was good, and his power is without question, though his chin is arguable---as such men as Buddy Baer, Tony Galento, Max Schmeling, James Braddock, dropped him. Schmeling and Braddock were not known for their kayo prowess, and Galento had no skills but to brawl, while Baer built his career on wins over questionable opposition.
But one thing is for certain, both Marciano and Louis knew how to climb off the floor to win.
***********************************************************
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Judging by how their actual fight went, as well as Joe Louis' statment that he could never beat Marciano---in all fairness Joe was not at his best, so throw in the fast hands and reflexes and we have one helluva fight.
It would go far into the later rounds, with Marciano being dropped in the middle rounds, but keeps the pressure on Louis. Louis is ahead on the score cards, but is visibly tiring. In the 13th round Marciano is relentless and floors Louis, but Joe regains his footing. Marciano senses his opponent is hurt and attacks Louis, but Louis will not go down so easily. He is giving it all he has, as is Marciano---in the 14th it's more of the same, neither man willing to give up. Both men are visibly drained from the bashing. Going into the 15th Marciano attempts one last major barrage of punches, Louis fires back, but Marciano lands first, Joe left himself open for a huge right hand. He hits the canvas. Louis barely beats the count, his legs wobbly---he manages to stay on his feet, and continues to defend himself. Marciano cracks another huge right hand, the Susie Q, and Louis goes down for the count! It's over, Marciano wins by KO in the 15th and final round!
Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes- MD15
Larry Holmes had beaten Ken Norton. He survived Shavers twice. Outside of that, he did not face fighters of the elite. The 80's was a dry era with such men as Evangelista, LeDoux, Coetzee, Ocassio being the top contenders. Had Larry Holmes been in the 70's he possibly would have beaten many of the top men like Bugner, Lyle, but arguably would have failed against Frazier and Foreman, and maybe even a prime Norton (he was on the downside in 1978). Ali always managed to find some way to win, whether it be by skill alone or by psychology or even improvising new tactics as the rounds went on. His hand speed at his best was super-natural and moved around like a Middleweight. He lacked power, but he made up for it in lightning fast combinations and great endurance. He was very tough. Holmes on the other hand, like Foreman, had great longetivity, as to where Ali lacked in that aspect.
It would be close, with Holmes having to bring the fight to Ali, using all his skills to dodge 'The Greatest' punches, as well as landing his long jab and handing out his share of quick combinations. Ali's hand speed is bad enough for Holmes to contend with, but the foot speed, the head movement, is what Holmes could not cope with. It would be close throughout the fight, Holmes usual lack of "killer attitude" is not evident in this fight, as he is willing to bring the pain to Ali---for he is not a bit psyched out by his idol's tactics. A quick paced fight, action packed from round to round, Ali scores home a decison against Holmes!
***********************************************************
I think this would be interesting as to how this round will determine the greatness of the final round in this tournament. If Louis and Ali wins, we can finally see if Ali's rants of how "Old Joe Louis couldn't whip me" be fact or fiction. If Marciano and Holmes wins, we will see if Holmes statement that "Marciano couldn't carry my jock strap" be correct or not. Or, as with the original computer fight, Marciano could take on Muhammad Ali once again, this time in our day and age, the "rematch of the computer fight". Or it could be the interesting match-up between Holmes and Louis---styles make fights!
Either way, this is a tournament that can't possibly lose, when it comes to making an awesome MAIN EVENT!
Like any computer simulation if you play it enough then all eventualities are possible. In real/fantasy life if Ali fought Frank Bruno 1000 times I'm sure Bruno would win 1.Decagon wrote:Actually, Ali didn't say that Tunney would trouble him; he said that out of the early guys, Tunney was the only fighter who had a "modern style." You have to remember that Muhammad Ali wasn't some sort of Albert Einstein; he judged every fighter in that segment (save Rocky Marciano, who had just died) based simply on how much footwork he used. Tunney used footwork in the footage Ali saw, so Ali gave props to Tunney. Walcott used footwork in the footage Ali saw, so Ali gave props to Walcott. Charles used footwork in the footage that Ali saw, so Ali gave props to Charles.IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I would like to comment about the two matches.
I know everybody is writing UD for Ali and all in his match with Tunney, but I do seem to recall in the 70's Howard Cosell asked Ali what Heavyweights would have given him the most trouble, out of the former champions. He named that Tunney, other than Walcott and Charles, would have given him the most trouble---that and Ali wouldn't comment on Marciano, and said straight forwardly that if he was in the bare-knuckle era he wouldn't have boxed because the great John L. Sullivan would have hurt him and "made me not so pretty."
Also, the professional wrestler in Muhammad Ali wanted to continue the Rocky Marciano legend. In the computer tournament, Ali "lost" to Rocky Marciano, and Ali, being an old pro wrestling fan, abided by that decision.
The result of the original fight was agreed upon before hand.
IrishRufusMurphy said,
"I didn't say Woroner's NCR-315 computer was no good, though it is true by today's standards it's a rather weak piece of machinery---all I said was the TITLE BOUT BOXING computer game, couldn't be as worse off as what the NCR-315 was. Plus this tournament also uses peoples votes to determine someone to move on, but if the votes are too close, I use the computer in a two out of three.
My tournament is only different in a few aspects, that I do have the best of the old, and the best of the modern day----and using a computer simulator in some matches, much like Woroner's tournament he done in 1967.".....
HMMMMMM. SO, what exactly is this game, TITLE BOUT BOXING?
Is it like a console computer game, eg. Playstation 2, X BOX.
OR
Is it for the Personal Computer...?
In either case how do you feed the game/machine/computer information on all the boxers...
'Cause I know for a matter of fact, that you can't feed video footage to a console game like PS2 or X BOX...
"I didn't say Woroner's NCR-315 computer was no good, though it is true by today's standards it's a rather weak piece of machinery---all I said was the TITLE BOUT BOXING computer game, couldn't be as worse off as what the NCR-315 was. Plus this tournament also uses peoples votes to determine someone to move on, but if the votes are too close, I use the computer in a two out of three.
My tournament is only different in a few aspects, that I do have the best of the old, and the best of the modern day----and using a computer simulator in some matches, much like Woroner's tournament he done in 1967.".....
HMMMMMM. SO, what exactly is this game, TITLE BOUT BOXING?
Is it like a console computer game, eg. Playstation 2, X BOX.
OR
Is it for the Personal Computer...?
In either case how do you feed the game/machine/computer information on all the boxers...
'Cause I know for a matter of fact, that you can't feed video footage to a console game like PS2 or X BOX...
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
If it was agreed upon before hand why did Ali bitch then? Why did he say so many negative things about it? If he was so against the decision, why did he agree to do it? Even Angelo Dundee said that it was the accurate result of the computer, that nobody set it up, that it was not predetermined.
For one Ali contradicts himself throughout time, first he said it was a biased decision made by a computer in Alabama, that a man in Mississippi must have been running the machine, then he said he chose the ending, then he said it was predetermined, said it was a Hollywood Fake...yet he said nothing but praise about Marciano's abilities. It's either one way or no way.
Ali is someone I don't really give much credit to when it comes to truth. I recall ages ago he said that Jack Johnson was the greatest, yet he proclaimed himself so many times as the best of all time---then he told Joe Louis' son at his father's funeral that Joe Louis was the greatest there ever was. Now he says Lennox Lewis is---and I also recall him saying how Marciano could have beaten virtually any man in the history of the ring.
Yes TITLE BOUT BOXING isn't as high-tech as the NCR-315 at least when it comes to being able to feed film into a computer simulated game, and I can't really say so for PS2 or any other game console, but I don't think anyone in this forum has an NCR-315 computer either, so this was the next best thing that I could think of atm.
Crease, I know you're prolly pissed off at me for making a similar tournament to yours and all, but can we all just vote and give opinions on the fighters, rather than how I set this tournament up, if you would all be so kind to do so?
So far...
Marciano 1-0 and Ali 1-0
Keep voting pplz, if you please.
For one Ali contradicts himself throughout time, first he said it was a biased decision made by a computer in Alabama, that a man in Mississippi must have been running the machine, then he said he chose the ending, then he said it was predetermined, said it was a Hollywood Fake...yet he said nothing but praise about Marciano's abilities. It's either one way or no way.
Ali is someone I don't really give much credit to when it comes to truth. I recall ages ago he said that Jack Johnson was the greatest, yet he proclaimed himself so many times as the best of all time---then he told Joe Louis' son at his father's funeral that Joe Louis was the greatest there ever was. Now he says Lennox Lewis is---and I also recall him saying how Marciano could have beaten virtually any man in the history of the ring.
Yes TITLE BOUT BOXING isn't as high-tech as the NCR-315 at least when it comes to being able to feed film into a computer simulated game, and I can't really say so for PS2 or any other game console, but I don't think anyone in this forum has an NCR-315 computer either, so this was the next best thing that I could think of atm.
Crease, I know you're prolly pissed off at me for making a similar tournament to yours and all, but can we all just vote and give opinions on the fighters, rather than how I set this tournament up, if you would all be so kind to do so?
So far...
Marciano 1-0 and Ali 1-0
Keep voting pplz, if you please.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
lol....true, but really that's all fighters, deep down inside every single last one of them thinks they are the greatest, or they can't be beat or they could beat this person or that person.
When you get down to it, it's all about who was really the dominate ones in their time. You can only rank someone by eras in the end with less argument. Sure you could review film after film and say Ali was faster than Corbett, and that Frazier was alot like Marciano---but until someone builds a time machine or can build a computer that can test someone's heart and desire, as well as everything else, we will never know.
This is just mental junk food guys lol it's nice to debate and all and wonder what if, but this is all that it is: mental junk-food.
************************************************************
Scores are still.....1-0 Marciano and 1-0 Ali
for any of those who wish to vote, please do so, and for those who wish to argue, please hold ur arguments until after the tournament.
When you get down to it, it's all about who was really the dominate ones in their time. You can only rank someone by eras in the end with less argument. Sure you could review film after film and say Ali was faster than Corbett, and that Frazier was alot like Marciano---but until someone builds a time machine or can build a computer that can test someone's heart and desire, as well as everything else, we will never know.
This is just mental junk food guys lol it's nice to debate and all and wonder what if, but this is all that it is: mental junk-food.
************************************************************
Scores are still.....1-0 Marciano and 1-0 Ali
for any of those who wish to vote, please do so, and for those who wish to argue, please hold ur arguments until after the tournament.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Irish
Ali, was the greatest self publicist boxing has ever known... He would never publicly admit to losing a fight in reality or fantasy. Many endings were filmed... Marciano only agreed to it because he was going to be the 'official' winner, even though in many black communities a copy of Ali winning was shown. This is all down in many of the Marciano biographies and is not anything new.
After Rocky's death his family were worried that the 'official' ending would be changed as there was still money to be made out of Ali. Apparently Ali reassured them that he would not interfere.
Simulations are great fun but they all depend on how the fighters are rated. My boxer cards were constantly being changed as a kid as I crossed out Farzier's power from 10/10 to 9/10 or I changed someone else's defence etc... The computer game, from what I've seen, is more sophisticated but still it relies on someone else's ratings who may or may not have a better perception fo these fighters than me, you or this board as a whole.
As much as I enjoy reading this thread, and thank you for starting it, the original computer tournament was a scam, an enjoyable, entertaining one, but nevertheless a scam. They could hardly have Jeffries fighting Dempsey on video, could they? It amazingly worked out perfectly... Ali, still young and controversial, representing the uppity youth of the day, and Rocky, stilll young enough (with a toupee) to look believable, representing the parents' generation. Throw in the less volatile but still manifest race angle and you have classic encounter that is filmable, viable and which reaches out to everyone. It's more akin to a carefully scripted film than a compuer simulation.
I think Ali wins a close decision. Maybe clsoer than many expect. It was often smaller guys who gave Ali the most trouble but I expect him to win a UD 15 round decision.
Ali, was the greatest self publicist boxing has ever known... He would never publicly admit to losing a fight in reality or fantasy. Many endings were filmed... Marciano only agreed to it because he was going to be the 'official' winner, even though in many black communities a copy of Ali winning was shown. This is all down in many of the Marciano biographies and is not anything new.
After Rocky's death his family were worried that the 'official' ending would be changed as there was still money to be made out of Ali. Apparently Ali reassured them that he would not interfere.
Simulations are great fun but they all depend on how the fighters are rated. My boxer cards were constantly being changed as a kid as I crossed out Farzier's power from 10/10 to 9/10 or I changed someone else's defence etc... The computer game, from what I've seen, is more sophisticated but still it relies on someone else's ratings who may or may not have a better perception fo these fighters than me, you or this board as a whole.
As much as I enjoy reading this thread, and thank you for starting it, the original computer tournament was a scam, an enjoyable, entertaining one, but nevertheless a scam. They could hardly have Jeffries fighting Dempsey on video, could they? It amazingly worked out perfectly... Ali, still young and controversial, representing the uppity youth of the day, and Rocky, stilll young enough (with a toupee) to look believable, representing the parents' generation. Throw in the less volatile but still manifest race angle and you have classic encounter that is filmable, viable and which reaches out to everyone. It's more akin to a carefully scripted film than a compuer simulation.
I think Ali wins a close decision. Maybe clsoer than many expect. It was often smaller guys who gave Ali the most trouble but I expect him to win a UD 15 round decision.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
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sockdolager
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1455
- Joined: 17 Jun 2005, 08:57
Didnt Ali call Joe Fraizer the greatest next to him after their 3rd fight?The Great John L wrote:And HW who actually WAS the greatest -- Muhammad Ali!!Decagon wrote:Fighters that Muhammad Ali called "The Greatest":Fighter that Muhammad Ali believed was "The Greatest":
- Jack Johnson
- Joe Louis
- Rocky Marciano
- Muhammad Ali
- Mike Tyson
- Evander Holyfield
- Lennox Lewis
- Muhammad Ali
On the contrary
IrishRufusMurhpy said,
"Yes TITLE BOUT BOXING isn't as high-tech as the NCR-315 at least when it comes to being able to feed film into a computer simulated game, and I can't really say so for PS2 or any other game console, but I don't think anyone in this forum has an NCR-315 computer either, so this was the next best thing that I could think of atm."....
So, is TITLE BOXING BOXING a ps2 or X BOX game? (If it is, I'll have to buy it, it sounds fun...lol. What Heavyweight boxers are all in it BTW.)
IrishRufusMurphy also said,
"Crease, I know you're prolly pissed off at me for making a similar tournament to yours and all, but can we all just vote and give opinions on the fighters, rather than how I set this tournament up, if you would all be so kind to do so?"...
On the contrary IrishRufusMurphy, I've actually got a lot of time for you and your opinions...(Your one of only about a dozen along with myself who believe that Marciano would defeat Louis, prime-vs-prime). And I'm not pissed off that you've created a sister tournament to my own, I'm just making enquiries into how your tournament is structured...
In my own tournament, it goes by the amount of votes that the boxers receive from BOXREC members, whereas you actually claimed to play out the boxers in a sumulated fight...
Understand where I'm coming from???
"Yes TITLE BOUT BOXING isn't as high-tech as the NCR-315 at least when it comes to being able to feed film into a computer simulated game, and I can't really say so for PS2 or any other game console, but I don't think anyone in this forum has an NCR-315 computer either, so this was the next best thing that I could think of atm."....
So, is TITLE BOXING BOXING a ps2 or X BOX game? (If it is, I'll have to buy it, it sounds fun...lol. What Heavyweight boxers are all in it BTW.)
IrishRufusMurphy also said,
"Crease, I know you're prolly pissed off at me for making a similar tournament to yours and all, but can we all just vote and give opinions on the fighters, rather than how I set this tournament up, if you would all be so kind to do so?"...
On the contrary IrishRufusMurphy, I've actually got a lot of time for you and your opinions...(Your one of only about a dozen along with myself who believe that Marciano would defeat Louis, prime-vs-prime). And I'm not pissed off that you've created a sister tournament to my own, I'm just making enquiries into how your tournament is structured...
In my own tournament, it goes by the amount of votes that the boxers receive from BOXREC members, whereas you actually claimed to play out the boxers in a sumulated fight...
Understand where I'm coming from???
BTW, yep Sockdollanger...
Ali did say that "'Smokin Joe Frazier is the next greatest" to himself...
Now, compare that to what he said even before their first fight...
"Howard you should've asked 'Smokin Joe, what hath he been smokin? That boy even dreamed he'd whip me, he better wake up an apologise"...
Hardly complimentary, is he?
Ali did say that "'Smokin Joe Frazier is the next greatest" to himself...
Now, compare that to what he said even before their first fight...
"Howard you should've asked 'Smokin Joe, what hath he been smokin? That boy even dreamed he'd whip me, he better wake up an apologise"...
Hardly complimentary, is he?
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
The Title Bout Boxing game, was originally a card game that had fighters from other eras ranked, and also ranked on an ATG list. It was made into a computer game, with over 3,600 fighters from different weight classes past and present.
When I tired the game out a few years before, when Foreman said he would face either of the Klitschko's when he said he'd come back at age 55, I put into the computer that Foreman had been inactive but trained hard and a few other details, and the computer said Foreman would win by 12th round KO after he himself had been dropped two or three times in the fight. It was rather interesting, as it gave a round for round call of the "fight". BoxRec.com also is apart of the game as it gives the complete records of each fighter, so that gives help to determine who would win.
I do think Woroner's tournament was set-up in ways, leaving out such fighters as Ezzard Charles, yet had less than memorable Jess Willard in it, and most of the black fighters lost to the white ones. But that's why I set this tournament up as having brawlers vs brawlers and stylists vs stylists, so it be best of the two styles end up facing eachother in the end.
Course everybody has to remember, there were seven possible endings to the Marciano-Ali computer fight, some of which Ali won and some Marciano won. But I think the two prints that they did release, were as accurate to the truth as any other could have been. Marciano, in my opinion, could only beat Ali by knockout and the other film released to the UK, having Ali win on cuts is the only way I could invision Ali ever stopping the Rock.
Either way it would be a highly contested fight, and wouldn't be the cake-walk many would think it would be. If Ali in 1969 could say a 45 year old Marciano hit really hard and was hard to hit, and that Ali could only imagine what Marciano would have been in his prime---that just shows me that the fight, if it ever could have been done in a prime vs prime basis, would have been extremely close.
I would like to see someone do it again, but this time with the most powerful computers and film specialists and all from today. Having people see how many punches Marciano threw and connected, measure how fast he threw his punches, estimate how powerful he hit---as the same with Ali. Have the computer figure out who would win, and have the computer and the best analysts and designers use footage from all their fights, where they fought in similar situations and styles and splice them together to make a simulated fight of the two men facing off.
***********************************************************
I am guessing, since Crease was the only one to say he believed Marciano would have dominated a prime Joe Louis, that makes the numbers on that particular match-up 2-0 in the Rock's favor.
Ezzard commented that he believed Ali would beat Marciano, or least that is what I believe he meant, but since we are not having Marciano-Ali, we are having Louis-Marciano, that vote simmers out.
So far...
2-0 Marciano
1-0 Ali (Crease didn't give opinion on Ali-Holmes)
Keep voting pplz
When I tired the game out a few years before, when Foreman said he would face either of the Klitschko's when he said he'd come back at age 55, I put into the computer that Foreman had been inactive but trained hard and a few other details, and the computer said Foreman would win by 12th round KO after he himself had been dropped two or three times in the fight. It was rather interesting, as it gave a round for round call of the "fight". BoxRec.com also is apart of the game as it gives the complete records of each fighter, so that gives help to determine who would win.
I do think Woroner's tournament was set-up in ways, leaving out such fighters as Ezzard Charles, yet had less than memorable Jess Willard in it, and most of the black fighters lost to the white ones. But that's why I set this tournament up as having brawlers vs brawlers and stylists vs stylists, so it be best of the two styles end up facing eachother in the end.
Course everybody has to remember, there were seven possible endings to the Marciano-Ali computer fight, some of which Ali won and some Marciano won. But I think the two prints that they did release, were as accurate to the truth as any other could have been. Marciano, in my opinion, could only beat Ali by knockout and the other film released to the UK, having Ali win on cuts is the only way I could invision Ali ever stopping the Rock.
Either way it would be a highly contested fight, and wouldn't be the cake-walk many would think it would be. If Ali in 1969 could say a 45 year old Marciano hit really hard and was hard to hit, and that Ali could only imagine what Marciano would have been in his prime---that just shows me that the fight, if it ever could have been done in a prime vs prime basis, would have been extremely close.
I would like to see someone do it again, but this time with the most powerful computers and film specialists and all from today. Having people see how many punches Marciano threw and connected, measure how fast he threw his punches, estimate how powerful he hit---as the same with Ali. Have the computer figure out who would win, and have the computer and the best analysts and designers use footage from all their fights, where they fought in similar situations and styles and splice them together to make a simulated fight of the two men facing off.
***********************************************************
I am guessing, since Crease was the only one to say he believed Marciano would have dominated a prime Joe Louis, that makes the numbers on that particular match-up 2-0 in the Rock's favor.
Ezzard commented that he believed Ali would beat Marciano, or least that is what I believe he meant, but since we are not having Marciano-Ali, we are having Louis-Marciano, that vote simmers out.
So far...
2-0 Marciano
1-0 Ali (Crease didn't give opinion on Ali-Holmes)
Keep voting pplz
My aplogies, IrishRufusMurphy,
I predict that;
Marciano vs Louis... Marciano wins KO round 5. (A prime Louis woul'dve come for Marciano and that only fits into Rcokys style of fighting)...
Ali vs Holmes... I can only see Ali winning in either a late KO or on a points decision.
So (you still haven't answered my question) what console/compauter is TITLE BOUT BOXING for? eg. PS2, X-BOX, PC?
I predict that;
Marciano vs Louis... Marciano wins KO round 5. (A prime Louis woul'dve come for Marciano and that only fits into Rcokys style of fighting)...
Ali vs Holmes... I can only see Ali winning in either a late KO or on a points decision.
So (you still haven't answered my question) what console/compauter is TITLE BOUT BOXING for? eg. PS2, X-BOX, PC?