BoxRec's Forum HW Top 15 ranking - Joyce vs Takam

[joshj909]

What are the rules of these rankings when it comes to inactivity?
How long is someone inactive for before being removed?

We've only removed Miller (Ban) and Povetkin (retirement) so far from my knowledge.

Our current top 15 have all fought in the past 12 months haven't they?

[tiny_acres]

What are the rules of these rankings when it comes to inactivity?
How long is someone inactive for before being removed?

We've only removed Miller (Ban) and Povetkin (retirement) so far from my knowledge.

Our current top 15 have all fought in the past 12 months haven't they?

When and if Fury and Wilder face off in October it will be just shy of 20 months

[margaret thatcher]

all along, the stalling and 'covid' that have delayed fury-wilder was just a ploy to get AJ into the number 1 spot via inactivity

[joshj909]

What are the rules of these rankings when it comes to inactivity?
How long is someone inactive for before being removed?

We've only removed Miller (Ban) and Povetkin (retirement) so far from my knowledge.

Our current top 15 have all fought in the past 12 months haven't they?

When and if Fury and Wilder face off in October it will be just shy of 20 months

That's true. Atleast they've got something booked so hopefully shouldn't cause a problem in the long run.

[aicheligad]

What are the rules of these rankings when it comes to inactivity?
How long is someone inactive for before being removed?

At first, it was 12 months (unless someone had a scheduled fight), now it's 18 months. Fury and Wilder fought last time 17 months ago, but they have a scheduled fight. The rest fought in the last 12 months.

[aicheligad]

It's Olympics time, let's see how fighters from our top 15 did in the olympic tournaments:

Tyson Fury - never participated

Anthony Joshua - 2012, SHW, gold medal

Deontay Wilder - 2008, HW, bronze medal

Dillian Whyte - never participated

Oleksandr Usyk - 2008, HW, quarterfinals, 2012, HW, gold medal

Andy Ruiz - never participated

Michael Hunter - 2012, HW, first round

Joseph Parker - never participated

Joe Joyce - 2016, SHW, silver medal

Kubrat Pulev - 2008, SHW, first round

Luis Ortiz - never participated

Dereck Chisora - never participated

Otto Wallin - never participated

Oscar Rivas - 2008, SHW, quarterfinals

Tony Yoka - 2012, SHW, first round, 2016, SHW, gold medal

[DrDuke]

It's Olympics time, let's see how fighters from our top 15 did in the olympic tournaments:

A minimal edge towards the former Olympians. Plus, 2004 SHW Gold medalist Povetkin has been out of the list recently.

[aicheligad]

It's Olympics time, let's see how fighters from our top 15 did in the olympic tournaments:

A minimal edge towards the former Olympians. Plus, 2004 SHW Gold medalist Povetkin has been out of the list recently.

Yes, you are right, he should be mentioned

[aicheligad]

Who defeated our fighters:

Deontay Wilder lost to Clemente Russo (1:7)

Oleksandr Usyk lost to Clemente Russo (4:7)

Michael Hunter lost to Artur Beterbiev (10:10+)

Joe Joyce lost to Tony Yoka (1:2)

Kubrat Pulev lost to Oscar Rivas (5:11)

Oscar Rivas lost to Roberto Cammarelle (5:9)

Tony Yoka lost to Simon Kean (16-16+)

[Finkel]

Joyce to #7
Whilst not overly enamoured with the stoppage. Takam couldn't put a dent in Joyce with his best shots, so even if he had survived the round the stoppage wasn't long off coming.

Plus, I really don't like the level of Hunter's most recent and next opponent.

But I can't put him above Ruiz Jr. as I felt Ruiz bar a few scares against Arreola dominated much of the fight. In contrast Takam was very competitive with Joyce until the finish (and likely up on the cards).

Joyce to #7
Takam remains unranked

[margaret thatcher]

if ruiz-arreola ended in the 6th, as joyce-takam did, the score shouldve been 47-47 even


no doubt joyce wouldve taken over takam and won wide on the cards if the fight went 12 like ruiz-arreola did

[Finkel]

Not really, some had Takam winning every round before the stoppage.
Arreola won 2 rounds total

Let's say Takam was allowed to continue, it's easy to call it a 10-8 for Joyce.
He would still be behind on the cards at the end of the 6th.
Whereas Ruiz Jr. was ahead by the half way point (for me anyway) 47-46

Edit:
Though I agree Joyce would have likely taken over and won wide on that cards.

But let's be fair, both Joyce and Ruiz Jr. underperformed. Ruiz Jr. I believe held position in our rankings. So moving Joyce up 2 positions to #7 is already being generous. I personally can't put Joyce above Ruiz Jr. on the back of that performance against Takam

[margaret thatcher]

joyce defo lost the first 2, then won round 3 and made a case in the 4th and 5th.

and ruiz clearly lost round 2 10-8 an then round 3, so 47-47

i guess i hardly see ruiz, who was hurt multiple times and dropped on his ass, doing better than joyce did through the same number of rounds. i also think takam is better than chis. joyces fight was close on the cards at the end and ruiz's wasnt because ruiz went a bunch of extra rounds and had time to build a lead, which joyce wouldve done too if he didnt stop takam so quickly

[Finkel]

I agree. And, I also gave Joyce the 3rd.

You are correct on the 47-47 @ the end of the 5th for Ruiz Jr. v Arreola. I had in my head potential scores at end of the 6th:
I meant 57-56, not 47-46.
Sorry it is early morning here. I was wondering why you had it a draw, haha.

Anyway, so:
End of 5th:
Ruiz 47-47 Arreola
Joyce 46-49 Takam
End of 6th:
Ruiz 57-56 Arreola
Joyce 56-57 Takam (giving a 10-8 for the 6th)

Urgh, I need a cup of coffee.

(Edit: sorry, didn't see your last paragraph)
That's a fair comment. And whilst I agree Ruiz Jr was definitely hurt, I think people are overselling how well Arreola did based on rounds 2 and 3. Whereas Takam was actually winning the fight.

I guess for me, it's like me disagreeing with TBRB when they ranked Wilder the #1 heavyweight after losing every round to Ortiz because he got the KO.

Joyce

Omg I just put sugar in my coffee machine

Joyce hasn't really shone in these step up fights, so I think it is still fair to rank Ruiz Jr. higher who has shown a higher level recently. But I understand some people prefer to rank on other criteria such as potential H2H

[candyslim]

Joyce and Hunter change places. Parker remains at 8.

If rules deny Hunter being demoted (as opposed to losing his place) then I'd just move Joyce to 7.

[Heretic]

My vote. No change.

I think that Parer is still the More proven fighter. Chisora is better win than takam. Hunter is bit too high for My liking but i guess we Will get chance to remedy that soon.

[aicheligad]

The voting is over.

Joyce goes to #7, Takam remains unranked.

Current ranking:

1. Tyson Fury - 30(21) 0 1 - next fight: 09.10.2021 vs Deontay Wilder - 42(41) 1(1) 1 - (#3)

2. Anthony Joshua - 24(22) 1(1) 0 - next fight: 25.09.2021 vs Oleksandr Usyk - 18(13) 0 0 - (#5)

3. Deontay Wilder - 42(41) 1(1) 1 - next fight: 24.07.2021 vs Tyson Fury - 30(21) 0 1 - (#1)

4. Dillian Whyte - 28(19) 2(2) 0 - next fight: TBA

5. Oleksandr Usyk - 18(13) 0 0 - next fight: 25.09.2021 vs Anthony Joshua - 24(22) 1(1) 0 - (#2)

6. Andy Ruiz Jr - 34(22) 2(0) 0 - next fight: TBA

7. Joe Joyce - 13(12) 0 0 - next fight: TBA

8. Michael Hunter - 19(13) 1(0) 1 - next fight: 14.08.2021 vs Mike Wilson - 21(10) 1(0) 0 - (unranked, inactive)

9. Joseph Parker - 29(21) 2(0) 0 - next fight: TBA

10. Kubrat Pulev - 28(14) 2(2) 0 - next fight: TBA

11. Luis Ortiz - 32(27) 2(2) 0 - next fight: TBA

12. Dereck Chisora - 32(23) 11(3) 0 - next fight: TBA

13. Otto Wallin - 22(14) 1(0) 0 - next fight: TBA

14. Óscar Rivas - 27(19) 1(0) 0 - next fight: TBA

15. Tony Yoka - 10(8) 0 0 - next fight: TBA

[margaret thatcher]

oh lawd big joe comin for em

[joshj909]

Joyce's best win is over a much older version of Parker's third best win. Albeit more decisive and recent. Looks like recency bias playing it's part here.

[margaret thatcher]

recency is perfectly relevant to rankings, rankings dont freeze in time and they should reflect the current landscape. otherwise roy jones wouldve been atop the p4p rankings until very recently

in the last 2 years joyce has stopped dubois and beat takam, jennings, stiverne.....pretty good

i had parker losing to chiz tbh so i dont rate that win much. before he that won a ho hum fight with fa which clearly doesnt rank up with stopping dub for example. and then you have to go back to 4 years ago to find anything else of note, the MD over hughie. it's not some big leap to put joyce ahead of him now

[joshj909]

recency is perfectly relevant to rankings, rankings dont freeze in time and they should reflect the current landscape. otherwise roy jones wouldve been atop the p4p rankings until very recently

in the last 2 years joyce has stopped dubois and beat takam, jennings, stiverne.....pretty good

i had parker losing to chiz tbh so i dont rate that win much. before he that won a ho hum fight with fa which clearly doesnt rank up with stopping dub for example. and then you have to go back to 4 years ago to find anything else of note, the MD over hughie. it's not some big leap to put joyce ahead of him now

I guess my view is significantly different from yours because I didn't see the Chisora fight as close as you. I think he won fairly.

I also don't think a victory over Stiverne means much these days. Based on recency. Dubois also has no significant wins to prove his quality.

[margaret thatcher]

You don't think it means much these days -- which shows the role recency plays doesnt it. it's a perfectly valid one.

if parker had ko'd dubois is would've been a big win for him too , much better than beating flores, winters, leapai, cojanu, or the drab win over fa. better than eye sore MD decision over hughie where he hardly landed a clean shot. his best in years up to that point and one of his best ever

i did have chis beating parker, as did many (https://eyeonthering.com/boxing/joseph- ... ck-chisora). he got dropped and wasnt convincging at all to me so i dont rate it highly.

the fact that parker beat ruiz like 6 years ago doesnt mean a hell of a lot to me for ranking him in 2021

[joshj909]

I was judging your assessment by your rules regarding Stiverne...

A win over Dubois might look great, but I judge my ranking based on proven wins. I know others do it fairly differently. He doesn't have a decent win to make himself a top scalp.

Controversial or not, at this stage in their careers a win over Chisora is better than that of Takam, who Chisora knocked out a few years ago. Comparably, Joyce scraped a controversial win over Jennings. Does that also play a factor?

By the way, should they face one another, I think Joyce would likely win. I just don't think his record justifies it yet.

[margaret thatcher]

stopping dubois would easily be one of parker's best scalps in years.......cant see how it's otherwise. since he won the wbo title only the chis win could i see the case for being better (on paper beat a more proven guy), but as i said i thought chis actually deserved it , so on my own cards parker has no win in the last 5 years to match it

jenn put up a good test vs joyce but joyce for me was a clear winner;' i had chis beating parker. those are just my takes on it and i think both are reasonable and i factor those into my rankings accordingly

for career achievement, parker obviously ranks ahead, just as a 55 year old tyson would rank ahead of both if he had another pro fight tomorrow

[candyslim]

There is also the point that Joyce is unbeaten as a pro. Of course that may just be because he hasn't faced Joshua or Whyte (and Parker was very unlucky against Whyte) but it does influence opinions and rankings.