I read an article about Gatti by Steve Kim, and in their he interviewed Bert Sugar. He was asked by Kim, if Arturo Gatti is bound for the Hall of Fame?
Bert sugar said, somthing like, "well if Michael Carbajal and Chiquita Gonzalez got into the Hall of Fame why not Arturo Gatti?"
And to me Gatti is not on their level. Gatti good fighter but he was never feared or as dominate at these two hall of famers in Carbajal and Gonzalez, and Carbajal and Gonzalez are the reason why the media television once again started to look at these little giants in the lower weight classes.
So i'd like to know from those who know more about Carbajal and Gonzalez career, if Sugars statement was out of place or not? And how would you rank Gatti to Michael Carbajal and Chiquita Gonzalez?
Well....if Michael Carbajal and Chicquita Gonzalez got in...
re
"Comment out of place"...not at all! Gatti has accomplished just as much as either fighter...more so really, especially if he wins the bout against Baldomir.
Gonzalez won two lack-luster fights against Carbajal and lost a barn-burner, but other than Carbajal and Jung-Koo Chang, Gonzalez faced relatively weak opposition and Gatti certainly has a better resume than Gonzalez.
Carbajal fought some tough opposition certainly on par with the competition that Gatti faced, but was it superior to Gatti…not in my opinion and if it was it was only by the slightest of margins.
No, I think that Sugar’s comment was pretty well founded because Gatti has accomplished just as much as either Gonzalez, or Carbajal and he has been a lot more exciting in doing it…though Carbajal was exciting to watch!
Gonzalez won two lack-luster fights against Carbajal and lost a barn-burner, but other than Carbajal and Jung-Koo Chang, Gonzalez faced relatively weak opposition and Gatti certainly has a better resume than Gonzalez.
Carbajal fought some tough opposition certainly on par with the competition that Gatti faced, but was it superior to Gatti…not in my opinion and if it was it was only by the slightest of margins.
No, I think that Sugar’s comment was pretty well founded because Gatti has accomplished just as much as either Gonzalez, or Carbajal and he has been a lot more exciting in doing it…though Carbajal was exciting to watch!
Re: re
Really....Gatti has never been dominate as Carbajal nor was never was he feared as Gonzalez was.barry wrote:"Comment out of place"...not at all! Gatti has accomplished just as much as either fighter...more so really, especially if he wins the bout against Baldomir.
Gonzalez won two lack-luster fights against Carbajal and lost a barn-burner, but other than Carbajal and Jung-Koo Chang, Gonzalez faced relatively weak opposition and Gatti certainly has a better resume than Gonzalez.
Carbajal fought some tough opposition certainly on par with the competition that Gatti faced, but was it superior to Gatti…not in my opinion and if it was it was only by the slightest of margins.
No, I think that Sugar’s comment was pretty well founded because Gatti has accomplished just as much as either Gonzalez, or Carbajal and he has been a lot more exciting in doing it…though Carbajal was exciting to watch!
I counted 11 title defeces for Carbajal and a few were as Undisputed Champion, tell me how Gatti compares? And Carbajal in his prime never lost to fighters like Angel Manfredy or Ivan Robinson or other lesser fighters in Gattis resume. And Gatti was never the best Champion or the Undisputed Champion. How how exactly can you even compare Carbajal or Gonzalez to Gatti - who struggled with a life and death battle with Micky Ward, and had a run of 3 straight loses in a row?
And how can you compare Gatti with Humberto "Chiquita" Gonzalez when he had 15 World Championship Title defences and some were when he was Undisputed World Champion something Gatti never was. And Gonzalez was a feard Champion, and puncher. Its been written in boxing articles that Contenders would rather face other World Champions then have to face Chiquita for his World Title.
With your post it seems to me that you don't really know much about either Michael Carbajal and Humberto "Chiquita" Gonzalez. I've respected your post in the past but this one of yours just seems really shady. Espcially when you say Gatti had a better resume, that just tells me you don't know much of Gonzalez career and Carbajals career.
Carbajals competition on par with Gatti was funny seeing as how Carbajal looks like he cleared out his division and was undisputed World Champion and Gatti never did this.
And you have dismissed all the great wars Gonzalez or Carbajal have been in to glorify Gatti, lol. I just started to watch boxing when Champions like both Carbajal and especially Gonzalez on the west coast was highly respected and feared. Gonzalez legendery for his battles as Gonzalez had a huge Mexican fans base and in his own right Carbajal an ex-Olympion had a great fan base as well.
People want to let Gatti in to the HOF, i don't care. But to compare him to the Great in Carbajal and Gonzalez accomplishments is a ridicules.
Gatti was a Champion in his own right and i'll leave it at that.
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scottmallon
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 499
- Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 20:41
Re: re
I agree.ferocity wrote:Really....Gatti has never been dominate as Carbajal nor was never was he feared as Gonzalez was.barry wrote:"Comment out of place"...not at all! Gatti has accomplished just as much as either fighter...more so really, especially if he wins the bout against Baldomir.
Gonzalez won two lack-luster fights against Carbajal and lost a barn-burner, but other than Carbajal and Jung-Koo Chang, Gonzalez faced relatively weak opposition and Gatti certainly has a better resume than Gonzalez.
Carbajal fought some tough opposition certainly on par with the competition that Gatti faced, but was it superior to Gatti…not in my opinion and if it was it was only by the slightest of margins.
No, I think that Sugar’s comment was pretty well founded because Gatti has accomplished just as much as either Gonzalez, or Carbajal and he has been a lot more exciting in doing it…though Carbajal was exciting to watch!
I counted 11 title defeces for Carbajal and a few were as Undisputed Champion, tell me how Gatti compares? And Carbajal in his prime never lost to fighters like Angel Manfredy or Ivan Robinson or other lesser fighters in Gattis resume. And Gatti was never the best Champion or the Undisputed Champion. How how exactly can you even compare Carbajal or Gonzalez to Gatti - who struggled with a life and death battle with Micky Ward, and had a run of 3 straight loses in a row?
And how can you compare Gatti with Humberto "Chiquita" Gonzalez when he had 15 World Championship Title defences and some were when he was Undisputed World Champion something Gatti never was. And Gonzalez was a feard Champion, and puncher. Its been written in boxing articles that Contenders would rather face other World Champions then have to face Chiquita for his World Title.
With your post it seems to me that you don't really know much about either Michael Carbajal and Humberto "Chiquita" Gonzalez. I've respected your post in the past but this one of yours just seems really shady. Espcially when you say Gatti had a better resume, that just tells me you don't know much of Gonzalez career and Carbajals career.
Carbajals competition on par with Gatti was funny seeing as how Carbajal looks like he cleared out his division and was undisputed World Champion and Gatti never did this.
And you have dismissed all the great wars Gonzalez or Carbajal have been in to glorify Gatti, lol. I just started to watch boxing when Champions like both Carbajal and especially Gonzalez on the west coast was highly respected and feared. Gonzalez legendery for his battles as Gonzalez had a huge Mexican fans base and in his own right Carbajal an ex-Olympion had a great fan base as well.
People want to let Gatti in to the HOF, i don't care. But to compare him to the Great in Carbajal and Gonzalez accomplishments is a ridicules.
Gatti was a Champion in his own right and i'll leave it at that.
Not only this, Carbajal and Gonzalez proved the little guys can have commercial appeal and are worthy of big paydays, thus paving the way for many others.
Personally I don't see Gatti as a great fighter, he's a glorified clubfighter who has never dominated in any division.
re
As dominant? As I recall both Gonzalez and Carbajal lost and neither were so dominant...certainly nothing outstanding. As to Carbajal with 11, well Gatti will have won titles in three different weight classes if he beats Baldomir, which is a pretty good bet that he will, but even more impressive is that Gatti has moved up four divisions and is still a top ten ranked fighter...did Carbajal move up four divisions? No, he stayed at jr. Flyweight his entire career, which jr. flyweight has never been a division flowing with an abundance of talent.
Carbajal was 1-2 against Gonzalez and for the "world/lineal/linear" jr. flyweight title he was 2-2, but if you want to count his alphabet titles defenses as being legit then you must do the same for Gatti and in that case Gatti then has won titles at two divisions and with that Gatti is 7-1-0 (4 KO) in title bouts, but his next bout will validate Gatti's career, which considering that he won titles at 130 it would be like Gonzalez and Carbajal winning titles at featherweight, which is not out of the question, but not likely...Carbajal might have had a chance to win title at 126, but no way does Gonzalez. Gonzalez, well as I said, aside from Carbajal and Chang, Gonzalez faced pretty weak opposition plus he was knocked cold three times. No all opinions aside and going by facts Gatti has been just as much if not more so impressive than Carbajal...Gonzalez does not even compare. Not to mention that Carbajal did a very good job of avoiding Scotty Olson for the years that it would have mattered and waited until Olson was past it before fighting him...he also stayed away from Ricardo Lopez like he was a hemorrhagic virus. Carbajal was a very fun fighter to watch, but he was not a super-dominant fighter as you might like to believe…in fact he had many “life and death” struggles against not the greatest of opposition.
Also, let’s take a look at a couple of other FACTS; total number of champions that each fighter faced and they’re records against said opposition::
Carbajal: Fought 6 champions and had a record of 5-3-0 (3 KO)
Gonzalez: Fought 8 champions and had a record of 7-3-0 (2 KO)
Gatti: Fought 9 champions and had a record of 8-2-0 (6 KO) against those 9.
So actual facts would seem to lean very much in my favor! Gatti has fought successfully in four different weight classes…both Carbajal and Gonzalez fought in one weight class. Well you see what they’re records against champions is above, which clearly and factually shows who fought the better competition, but lets also look at the hall of famers and probably hall of famers they fought.
Gatti: De La Hoya, Mayweather…Gabe Ruelas is in the World Boxing HOF so Gatti was 1-2-0 (1 KO) in HOF bouts.
Carbajal: Fought Gonzalez and that is it…unless Jorge Arce has a career that is HOF worthy and Carnajal’s record against HOF fighters…1-2-0 (1 KO)
Gonzalez: Fought Carbajal and Jung-Koo Chang should be in the HOF, which I think he is in the World Boxing HOF and Gonzalez’ record was 3-1-0 (0 KO) against HOF caliber fighters.
As I said, opinions aside, the actual FACTS of the fighters careers are very similar and if anything Gatti has been more impressive as the actual FACTS point out and it is always more difficult to move up in weight…especially close to twenty pounds, but then again Carbajal and Gonzalez neither ever moved up in weight!
It seems that not only do you not know much about Carbajal, or Gonzalez, but you certainly seem to know nothing about the opponents they faced, but I guess you probably think that guys like Rolando Pascua and Jake Matlala are hall of fame caliber…eh? Try to stick to some facts instead of opinionated fantasy, but if you can present a decent, fact based argument I will be glad to listen…opinions backed by opinions mean very little to me, so being that I know little about Carbajal and Gonzalez how about you enlighten me about the fighters they fought…if you can…and as I said, use facts to back your claim because I’ll ignore opinions! And try not to show complete bias by giving Carbajal points for alphabet defenses and then try to damn Gatti for the exact same thing!!!
Also, if you cannot read what I have already stated, such as the mentions that I made about the one war that Carbajal-Gonzalez had, then don’t make up crap, such as the three great wars they had…they had one war followed by two very lack-luster bouts in which Gonzalez easily, very easily out-pointed Carbajal…but then again, from the way you speak I doubt if you have seen the last two bouts…I know you haven’t if you think they were wars, but speaking of wars…no fighter of the past thirty years can compare to Gatti.
Now are you going to try to speak with some logic based on fact, oir will you stay in the realm of fantasy where you think Carbajal and Gonzalez were these almighty world beaters compared to Gatti?
Carbajal was 1-2 against Gonzalez and for the "world/lineal/linear" jr. flyweight title he was 2-2, but if you want to count his alphabet titles defenses as being legit then you must do the same for Gatti and in that case Gatti then has won titles at two divisions and with that Gatti is 7-1-0 (4 KO) in title bouts, but his next bout will validate Gatti's career, which considering that he won titles at 130 it would be like Gonzalez and Carbajal winning titles at featherweight, which is not out of the question, but not likely...Carbajal might have had a chance to win title at 126, but no way does Gonzalez. Gonzalez, well as I said, aside from Carbajal and Chang, Gonzalez faced pretty weak opposition plus he was knocked cold three times. No all opinions aside and going by facts Gatti has been just as much if not more so impressive than Carbajal...Gonzalez does not even compare. Not to mention that Carbajal did a very good job of avoiding Scotty Olson for the years that it would have mattered and waited until Olson was past it before fighting him...he also stayed away from Ricardo Lopez like he was a hemorrhagic virus. Carbajal was a very fun fighter to watch, but he was not a super-dominant fighter as you might like to believe…in fact he had many “life and death” struggles against not the greatest of opposition.
Also, let’s take a look at a couple of other FACTS; total number of champions that each fighter faced and they’re records against said opposition::
Carbajal: Fought 6 champions and had a record of 5-3-0 (3 KO)
Gonzalez: Fought 8 champions and had a record of 7-3-0 (2 KO)
Gatti: Fought 9 champions and had a record of 8-2-0 (6 KO) against those 9.
So actual facts would seem to lean very much in my favor! Gatti has fought successfully in four different weight classes…both Carbajal and Gonzalez fought in one weight class. Well you see what they’re records against champions is above, which clearly and factually shows who fought the better competition, but lets also look at the hall of famers and probably hall of famers they fought.
Gatti: De La Hoya, Mayweather…Gabe Ruelas is in the World Boxing HOF so Gatti was 1-2-0 (1 KO) in HOF bouts.
Carbajal: Fought Gonzalez and that is it…unless Jorge Arce has a career that is HOF worthy and Carnajal’s record against HOF fighters…1-2-0 (1 KO)
Gonzalez: Fought Carbajal and Jung-Koo Chang should be in the HOF, which I think he is in the World Boxing HOF and Gonzalez’ record was 3-1-0 (0 KO) against HOF caliber fighters.
As I said, opinions aside, the actual FACTS of the fighters careers are very similar and if anything Gatti has been more impressive as the actual FACTS point out and it is always more difficult to move up in weight…especially close to twenty pounds, but then again Carbajal and Gonzalez neither ever moved up in weight!
It seems that not only do you not know much about Carbajal, or Gonzalez, but you certainly seem to know nothing about the opponents they faced, but I guess you probably think that guys like Rolando Pascua and Jake Matlala are hall of fame caliber…eh? Try to stick to some facts instead of opinionated fantasy, but if you can present a decent, fact based argument I will be glad to listen…opinions backed by opinions mean very little to me, so being that I know little about Carbajal and Gonzalez how about you enlighten me about the fighters they fought…if you can…and as I said, use facts to back your claim because I’ll ignore opinions! And try not to show complete bias by giving Carbajal points for alphabet defenses and then try to damn Gatti for the exact same thing!!!
Also, if you cannot read what I have already stated, such as the mentions that I made about the one war that Carbajal-Gonzalez had, then don’t make up crap, such as the three great wars they had…they had one war followed by two very lack-luster bouts in which Gonzalez easily, very easily out-pointed Carbajal…but then again, from the way you speak I doubt if you have seen the last two bouts…I know you haven’t if you think they were wars, but speaking of wars…no fighter of the past thirty years can compare to Gatti.
Now are you going to try to speak with some logic based on fact, oir will you stay in the realm of fantasy where you think Carbajal and Gonzalez were these almighty world beaters compared to Gatti?
I dont get this point barry. Just because the last two fights were lackluster they shouldnt be used to downplay the fighters greatness. Gatti fought 2 thrilling battles with ivan Robinson and still lost both fights. Thrilling dont always mean great and many fighters like Hopskins, WHitaker and even Larry Holmes are going to leave a quite a trail of lackluster fights behind them as the enter the hall of fame.Also, if you cannot read what I have already stated, such as the mentions that I made about the one war that Carbajal-Gonzalez had, then don’t make up crap, such as the three great wars they had…they had one war followed by two very lack-luster bouts in which Gonzalez easily, very easily out-pointed Carbajal…but then again, from the way you speak I doubt if you have seen the last two bouts…I know you haven’t if you think they were wars, but speaking of wars…no fighter of the past thirty years can compare to Gatti.
Both Cabrajal and Gonzalez fought very solid if not spectacular oppisition throughout most of their prime. They fought each other at the peak of their skills and each is a fighter better than anyone Gatti ever beat.
Gatti is very popular because of both his strenghts and weaknesses. His chin is a little on the shaky side but his recuprative powers are outstanding. He has very good power in both hands, not to mention that he usually enters the ring with a decisive weight advantage. he cuts easy and loves to mix it up.
This all makes him very exciting and thus popular. His wars are classic which is why he gets so many oppertunities for laurels from HBO.
But lets remember the guys who particepated in these wars with Gatti. Robinson,Ward,Manfredy, Rodriguez arent exactly a muderers row. And he went 3-4 in those fight! When ever he stepped it up he not only loss, he was absolutely dissmissed.
The only really impressive(not the action, the opponent) wins on his resume is the first Tracy Harris Patterson fight, and the fight with Ruelas, who may have been on his last leg actually.
By the way, did anyone notice that Gatti's lion heart seemed to be missing in his fights with Delayhoya and Mayweather? He didnt exactley go for broke or go out on his shield in those fights. He seemed to sucumb to these to vastly superior fighters rather meekly.
re
I'm not downplaying either fighters greatness, I enjoyed watching both fighters...I'm just simply saying...and proving that they were not more worthy than Gatti and that Gatti is just as worthy of HOF as either Gonzalez, or Carbajal. I'm not saying that they are not HOF worthy, or that they are not deserving, but they most certainly are not head-and-shoulders above gatti and as the facts of they're careers show they are all very similar in stats and if anything Gatti has had a more impressive career than either guy...the actual facts certainly point that out...it's not my opinion...well it is, but it's back very solid by fact! Like Scott said, Carbajal and Gonzalez brought some long overdue attention to the smallest fighters and made the first million dollar payday for flyweights, but overall, neither fighter had a career that was more superior than Gatti! I'm not degrading the fighters, I'm just pointing out that they're career's were not more dominant than Gatti's
>>>By the way, did anyone notice that Gatti's lion heart seemed to be missing in his fights with Delayhoya and Mayweather? He didnt exactley go for broke or go out on his shield in those fights. He seemed to sucumb to these to vastly superior fighters rather meekly.<<<
Well, if Gatti had been the only fighter to succumb to Mayweather and De La Hoya then it might be something, but those two guys have broke down some of the best ever...Chavez certainly showed little of that lion-heart of his against De la Hoya...in fact didn't Chavez flat out quit in one of the bouts?
>>>By the way, did anyone notice that Gatti's lion heart seemed to be missing in his fights with Delayhoya and Mayweather? He didnt exactley go for broke or go out on his shield in those fights. He seemed to sucumb to these to vastly superior fighters rather meekly.<<<
Well, if Gatti had been the only fighter to succumb to Mayweather and De La Hoya then it might be something, but those two guys have broke down some of the best ever...Chavez certainly showed little of that lion-heart of his against De la Hoya...in fact didn't Chavez flat out quit in one of the bouts?
re
>>>Robinson,Ward,Manfredy, Rodriguez<<<
Aside from the couple of fighters that I mentioned...neither Carbajal, or Gonzalez faced anyone more superior than those fighters you mentioned above, but then again you are leaving out many fighters that Gatti beat who were just as good as anyone Carbajal, or Gonzalez ever faced. I haven't added up the win-loss totals of the opponents that each fighter fought, but I would be willing to bet that the fighters Gatti fought had/has a lot better record combined than that of Carbajal and Gonzalez.
Aside from the couple of fighters that I mentioned...neither Carbajal, or Gonzalez faced anyone more superior than those fighters you mentioned above, but then again you are leaving out many fighters that Gatti beat who were just as good as anyone Carbajal, or Gonzalez ever faced. I haven't added up the win-loss totals of the opponents that each fighter fought, but I would be willing to bet that the fighters Gatti fought had/has a lot better record combined than that of Carbajal and Gonzalez.
re
I just added up the record totals of each fighter’s opposition and of no surprise to me the numbers are pretty overwhelming in Gatti's favor.
Gonzalez---in 845 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 640-176-29 for an overall winning percentage of 75.7%
Carbajal---in 1137 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 806-285-46 for an overall winning percentage of 70.8%
Gatti---in 1257 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 1003-218-36 for an overall winning percentage of 79.8%
Also another fact that I found interesting was the fact that both Carbajal and Gonzalez often fought opponents with losing records and this was all through they're career. I could not imagine the kind of crap and flack people would throw toward Gatti if he had fought someone with a record like 6-12-3 during the past ten years. Talk about a bunch screaming mismatch, hell they were screaming mismatch when gatti was fighting the likes of Joey Gamache!
What is most obvious though is the fact that both Carbajal and Gonzalez stayed at 108 pounds they're entire career. Not only did they fail to fight some of the best of jr. fly and straw, but they avoided flyweight and jr. bantam, which would have only been seven extra pounds from jr. flyweight to jr. bantam...so Carbajal and Gonzalez were a long, long, long ways off from clearing out they're weight range...in fact Gatti has done a lot more by fighting top ten opposition for the past ten years at four different weights and arguably fighting the very best of each weight...not always victorious, but always fighting top competition, which is something that neither Carbajal, nor Gonzalez can claim because they often fought very soft touches.
As I said, I'm not saying that Gonzalez, or Carbajal were not top fighters, but as I have pointed out and backed up very solidly with actual, honest facts they most certainly were not more HOF worthy than Arturo Gatti and as I answered at the beginning, Bert Sugar was very justified in his remark because honestly I don't think any of the three deserve to be hall of fame...No I take that back…they may in fact be worthy, but I can certainly name several other flyweights who were more deserving than Carbajal and Gonzalez!
Guys like Peter Kane, Pone Kingpetch, Hiroki Ebihara and many more flyweights accomplished more, or actually fought a lot better opposition than Carbajal and Gonzalez.
For the record ferocity...you said that you just started watching boxing when Carbajal and Gonzalez began to make noise on the West Coast...I've watched Carbajal since his amateur days and have followed Gonzalez since he starteed fighting in the USA, but I started watching boxing when guys like Danny Lopez, Bobby Chacon and then Carlos Zarate, Alphonso Zamora and Jaime Garza were burning the West Coast up.
And since you claimed it, now how about pointing out to us all how the GREAT in Carbajal and Gonzalez is so much better than that in Gatti...and remember...FACTS please!
Gonzalez---in 845 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 640-176-29 for an overall winning percentage of 75.7%
Carbajal---in 1137 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 806-285-46 for an overall winning percentage of 70.8%
Gatti---in 1257 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 1003-218-36 for an overall winning percentage of 79.8%
Also another fact that I found interesting was the fact that both Carbajal and Gonzalez often fought opponents with losing records and this was all through they're career. I could not imagine the kind of crap and flack people would throw toward Gatti if he had fought someone with a record like 6-12-3 during the past ten years. Talk about a bunch screaming mismatch, hell they were screaming mismatch when gatti was fighting the likes of Joey Gamache!
What is most obvious though is the fact that both Carbajal and Gonzalez stayed at 108 pounds they're entire career. Not only did they fail to fight some of the best of jr. fly and straw, but they avoided flyweight and jr. bantam, which would have only been seven extra pounds from jr. flyweight to jr. bantam...so Carbajal and Gonzalez were a long, long, long ways off from clearing out they're weight range...in fact Gatti has done a lot more by fighting top ten opposition for the past ten years at four different weights and arguably fighting the very best of each weight...not always victorious, but always fighting top competition, which is something that neither Carbajal, nor Gonzalez can claim because they often fought very soft touches.
As I said, I'm not saying that Gonzalez, or Carbajal were not top fighters, but as I have pointed out and backed up very solidly with actual, honest facts they most certainly were not more HOF worthy than Arturo Gatti and as I answered at the beginning, Bert Sugar was very justified in his remark because honestly I don't think any of the three deserve to be hall of fame...No I take that back…they may in fact be worthy, but I can certainly name several other flyweights who were more deserving than Carbajal and Gonzalez!
Guys like Peter Kane, Pone Kingpetch, Hiroki Ebihara and many more flyweights accomplished more, or actually fought a lot better opposition than Carbajal and Gonzalez.
For the record ferocity...you said that you just started watching boxing when Carbajal and Gonzalez began to make noise on the West Coast...I've watched Carbajal since his amateur days and have followed Gonzalez since he starteed fighting in the USA, but I started watching boxing when guys like Danny Lopez, Bobby Chacon and then Carlos Zarate, Alphonso Zamora and Jaime Garza were burning the West Coast up.
And since you claimed it, now how about pointing out to us all how the GREAT in Carbajal and Gonzalez is so much better than that in Gatti...and remember...FACTS please!
Gatti isn't an elite fighter. Even at his best he was a 1/2 level from being an A fighter. Best guy he beat was TH Patterson. Patterson was very good & many feel patterson won their classic 1st fight. A fight, I might add, that features both punishing exchanges and also world class skill /punch delivery. Same cannot be said for Gatti's other classics, which have been derided by some - whether you agree or not - as glorified clubfights.
That's Gatti's big win, a controversial win in a fight he was getting brutalized in in the late stages. & THP was a natural super bantamweight, so Gatti damn well should have dominated him - luckily he did in the rematch or his tp class reputation would be in tatters.
Come on, Carbajal and Gonzalez were elite fighters. They were in a great fight with each other. But they both were prolific world title holders. Carbajal beat a future champ Will Grigsby in his pro debut. In his last ever fight he scored a classic come from behind KO of Arce. He won a legendary fight - that was also a unification - against Gonzalez, & Gonzalez was a monster. To win his 1st title he beat an excellent Thai, M Kittikassem, who would go on to stop Chitalada twice. Carbajal was an exceptionally busy champion, fighting every 2-3 months in his prime, and also hammered WBO title holder J Camacho, exposing the difference between 'titlist' and 'champion'.
Josue Camacho is the level of fighter that Gatti would have scrappy but exciting brawls with and maybe lose to on a 10 round decision
Haven't got time to go into Humberto Gonzalez. But he beat Carbajal twice & was a bit of a destroyer
Carbajal and Gopnzalez are up there with little legends like Mark Johnson, Ricardo Lopez, Veeraphol Sahaprom, Johnny Tapia etc
That's Gatti's big win, a controversial win in a fight he was getting brutalized in in the late stages. & THP was a natural super bantamweight, so Gatti damn well should have dominated him - luckily he did in the rematch or his tp class reputation would be in tatters.
Come on, Carbajal and Gonzalez were elite fighters. They were in a great fight with each other. But they both were prolific world title holders. Carbajal beat a future champ Will Grigsby in his pro debut. In his last ever fight he scored a classic come from behind KO of Arce. He won a legendary fight - that was also a unification - against Gonzalez, & Gonzalez was a monster. To win his 1st title he beat an excellent Thai, M Kittikassem, who would go on to stop Chitalada twice. Carbajal was an exceptionally busy champion, fighting every 2-3 months in his prime, and also hammered WBO title holder J Camacho, exposing the difference between 'titlist' and 'champion'.
Josue Camacho is the level of fighter that Gatti would have scrappy but exciting brawls with and maybe lose to on a 10 round decision
Haven't got time to go into Humberto Gonzalez. But he beat Carbajal twice & was a bit of a destroyer
Carbajal and Gopnzalez are up there with little legends like Mark Johnson, Ricardo Lopez, Veeraphol Sahaprom, Johnny Tapia etc
Re: re
You claim that Carbajal and Gonzalez fought fighters with a losesing records so then they must not have been good opponets, then this really indicates how ignorant you are to the lower weight classes.barry wrote:I just added up the record totals of each fighter’s opposition and of no surprise to me the numbers are pretty overwhelming in Gatti's favor.
Gonzalez---in 845 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 640-176-29 for an overall winning percentage of 75.7%
Carbajal---in 1137 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 806-285-46 for an overall winning percentage of 70.8%
Gatti---in 1257 total fights his opponents logged in a record of 1003-218-36 for an overall winning percentage of 79.8%
Also another fact that I found interesting was the fact that both Carbajal and Gonzalez often fought opponents with losing records and this was all through they're career. I could not imagine the kind of crap and flack people would throw toward Gatti if he had fought someone with a record like 6-12-3 during the past ten years. Talk about a bunch screaming mismatch, hell they were screaming mismatch when gatti was fighting the likes of Joey Gamache!
What is most obvious though is the fact that both Carbajal and Gonzalez stayed at 108 pounds they're entire career. Not only did they fail to fight some of the best of jr. fly and straw, but they avoided flyweight and jr. bantam, which would have only been seven extra pounds from jr. flyweight to jr. bantam...so Carbajal and Gonzalez were a long, long, long ways off from clearing out they're weight range...in fact Gatti has done a lot more by fighting top ten opposition for the past ten years at four different weights and arguably fighting the very best of each weight...not always victorious, but always fighting top competition, which is something that neither Carbajal, nor Gonzalez can claim because they often fought very soft touches.
As I said, I'm not saying that Gonzalez, or Carbajal were not top fighters, but as I have pointed out and backed up very solidly with actual, honest facts they most certainly were not more HOF worthy than Arturo Gatti and as I answered at the beginning, Bert Sugar was very justified in his remark because honestly I don't think any of the three deserve to be hall of fame...No I take that back…they may in fact be worthy, but I can certainly name several other flyweights who were more deserving than Carbajal and Gonzalez!
Guys like Peter Kane, Pone Kingpetch, Hiroki Ebihara and many more flyweights accomplished more, or actually fought a lot better opposition than Carbajal and Gonzalez.
For the record ferocity...you said that you just started watching boxing when Carbajal and Gonzalez began to make noise on the West Coast...I've watched Carbajal since his amateur days and have followed Gonzalez since he starteed fighting in the USA, but I started watching boxing when guys like Danny Lopez, Bobby Chacon and then Carlos Zarate, Alphonso Zamora and Jaime Garza were burning the West Coast up.
And since you claimed it, now how about pointing out to us all how the GREAT in Carbajal and Gonzalez is so much better than that in Gatti...and remember...FACTS please!
Fighters at the lower weight classes get title shots much quicker then the heavyier weight classes becuase their ain't that many American fighters in those lighters weight as opposed to the heavier divisions.
Instead of going off loses in the boxrec files why not go off the fighters both Carbajal and Gonzalez lost to and see what they did afterwards. And you wont' do this, cause when i looked up the fighters they lost to they actually did good. Unlike fighters Gatti has lost too.
And if you think Gatti is better then Carbajal and Gonzalez then i will ignor any of your input on fighters. I've followed Gattis career, and he lost to fighters who were not on the level of either Carbajal or Gonzalez. And he got a paper title at 140 and 135. He didn't beat the top fighters in those division as he neither did it at 130.
Why the hate for Carbajal and Gonzalez to move up? I don't get it. I don't ever recall them having weight problems so all you are doing is being a hater.
I would never put Gattii in the same league as Carbajal or Gonzalez, that just really ridicules. All your basic argusment is that Gattin had great action fights, lol, cause it was against lesser fighters.
And as someone mentioned he didn't go out on his shield against Delahoya or Mayweather. He infact did nothing against Mayweather but show up for a beating.
Gatti if over-rated by his fans as you are certinetly doing.
I may not know too much about Carbajal or Gonzalez, but i do remember their boxing boxing matchs, and Gonzalez had to box in order to defeat Carbajal. But as already mentioned. It ws Carbajal and Gonzalez fight that made people once pay attenion to the lighter weights, without them who knows when the little guys would have been on the big stage.
So don't try and make Gatti out to be a Hall of Famer when i know Gattis career and his lesser opponets. Him taking a beating in ever fight doesn't make him a HOF. Its really laughable that you are defending Gatti the way your.
Thanks man, you brought in knowlege about Carbajal and Gonzalez.viciousmaussa wrote:Gatti isn't an elite fighter. Even at his best he was a 1/2 level from being an A fighter. Best guy he beat was TH Patterson. Patterson was very good & many feel patterson won their classic 1st fight. A fight, I might add, that features both punishing exchanges and also world class skill /punch delivery. Same cannot be said for Gatti's other classics, which have been derided by some - whether you agree or not - as glorified clubfights.
That's Gatti's big win, a controversial win in a fight he was getting brutalized in in the late stages. & THP was a natural super bantamweight, so Gatti damn well should have dominated him - luckily he did in the rematch or his tp class reputation would be in tatters.
Come on, Carbajal and Gonzalez were elite fighters. They were in a great fight with each other. But they both were prolific world title holders. Carbajal beat a future champ Will Grigsby in his pro debut. In his last ever fight he scored a classic come from behind KO of Arce. He won a legendary fight - that was also a unification - against Gonzalez, & Gonzalez was a monster. To win his 1st title he beat an excellent Thai, M Kittikassem, who would go on to stop Chitalada twice. Carbajal was an exceptionally busy champion, fighting every 2-3 months in his prime, and also hammered WBO title holder J Camacho, exposing the difference between 'titlist' and 'champion'.
Josue Camacho is the level of fighter that Gatti would have scrappy but exciting brawls with and maybe lose to on a 10 round decision
Haven't got time to go into Humberto Gonzalez. But he beat Carbajal twice & was a bit of a destroyer
Carbajal and Gopnzalez are up there with little legends like Mark Johnson, Ricardo Lopez, Veeraphol Sahaprom, Johnny Tapia etc
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Exactly man. If Carbajal and Gonzalez never would have came along, the little guys would not have gotten the attention they have now. It would have taken more years before they would get recognized but as you said, Carbajal and Gonzalez paved the way for fighters like Barrera, Hamed, Morales, Pacquiao. These fighters and the lower weight fighters all benifited by Carbajal and Gonzlez war and careers.scottmallon wrote:
I agree.
Not only this, Carbajal and Gonzalez proved the little guys can have commercial appeal and are worthy of big paydays, thus paving the way for many others.
Personally I don't see Gatti as a great fighter, he's a glorified clubfighter who has never dominated in any division.
Exactly, Hopkins fight with Antonio Tarver almost put me to sleep, it was the same Hopkins i've always seen. And Ali didnt look spectaler in his last fights. So i don't understand barry saying that they didn't look great in their last fights. Which can't be said in eigther of Carbajals or Gonzalez careers. Carbajal came from behind and ko'd Jorge Arce. And Gonzalez was beating and out boxig Samnjuarg, untill his heart and warriro mentallity forced him to brawl and he got caught and ko'd, instead of rematching him and using his boxing to defeat the Asian fighter he retires and as we know he could have beat the Asian in the rematch with his superior boxing, and lets remember that Samunjuarg became a dominate World Champion. Barry argument for Gatti in my opinion has way to many holes cause he's trying to build up Gatti as a sure HOF and down play Carbajl and Gonzalez which is really laughable.theone wrote:
I dont get this point barry. Just because the last two fights were lackluster they shouldnt be used to downplay the fighters greatness. Gatti fought 2 thrilling battles with ivan Robinson and still lost both fights. Thrilling dont always mean great and many fighters like Hopskins, WHitaker and even Larry Holmes are going to leave a quite a trail of lackluster fights behind them as the enter the hall of fame.
Both Cabrajal and Gonzalez fought very solid if not spectacular oppisition throughout most of their prime. They fought each other at the peak of their skills and each is a fighter better than anyone Gatti ever beat.
Gatti is very popular because of both his strenghts and weaknesses. His chin is a little on the shaky side but his recuprative powers are outstanding. He has very good power in both hands, not to mention that he usually enters the ring with a decisive weight advantage. he cuts easy and loves to mix it up.
This all makes him very exciting and thus popular. His wars are classic which is why he gets so many oppertunities for laurels from HBO.
But lets remember the guys who particepated in these wars with Gatti. Robinson,Ward,Manfredy, Rodriguez arent exactly a muderers row. And he went 3-4 in those fight! When ever he stepped it up he not only loss, he was absolutely dissmissed.
The only really impressive(not the action, the opponent) wins on his resume is the first Tracy Harris Patterson fight, and the fight with Ruelas, who may have been on his last leg actually.
By the way, did anyone notice that Gatti's lion heart seemed to be missing in his fights with Delayhoya and Mayweather? He didnt exactley go for broke or go out on his shield in those fights. He seemed to sucumb to these to vastly superior fighters rather meekly.
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>>>You claim that Carbajal and Gonzalez fought fighters with a losesing records so then they must not have been good opponets, then this really indicates how ignorant you are to the lower weight classes.<<<
I'm sure in your mind that you feel fighters like Armando Diaz, Manuel Sarabia, Mauro Diaz, Pablo Tiznado or a Tomas Cordoba are good opponents, which are all opponents that Carbajal and Gonzalez fought after being a champion, but as I said...I think I will stick to reality instead of fantasy and if you are too stupid to understand what makes a good fighter and what doesn't then all the facts anyone presents you is just a waste of time!
>>>So don't try and make Gatti out to be a Hall of Famer when i know Gattis career and his lesser opponets. Him taking a beating in ever fight doesn't make him a HOF. Its really laughable that you are defending Gatti the way your.<<<
As I said in my last post...unless you can dish out some actual FACTS instead of your silly, half-ass opinion then I'm not going to waste my time!!! All you have presented is your opinion, which is not even a solid opinion, and not once backed anything with any actual facts about any of the fighters, all you have done have stated what you think, or actually, what you wish and as I said if you are too stupid to to understand actual FACTS about the fighters each man fought then head back to "Neverland" because I'm not wasting my time with you!
But then again, as I said, I'm sure you probably feel that guys like Armando Diaz, Manuel Sarabia and Mauro Diaz are good opponents, but I know better and no matter how much you might try you can never make truth when it doesn't exsist...only fantasy...as you have demonstrated...I just figured you would have had sense enough to realize and understand FACT from fiction...guess I was way wrong about that!
But why don't you tell us all in detail what makes Carbajal and Gonzalez a HOFer and Gatti not...can you do that with some actual FACT, or will you just continue with the fictional nonsense?
I'm sure in your mind that you feel fighters like Armando Diaz, Manuel Sarabia, Mauro Diaz, Pablo Tiznado or a Tomas Cordoba are good opponents, which are all opponents that Carbajal and Gonzalez fought after being a champion, but as I said...I think I will stick to reality instead of fantasy and if you are too stupid to understand what makes a good fighter and what doesn't then all the facts anyone presents you is just a waste of time!
>>>So don't try and make Gatti out to be a Hall of Famer when i know Gattis career and his lesser opponets. Him taking a beating in ever fight doesn't make him a HOF. Its really laughable that you are defending Gatti the way your.<<<
As I said in my last post...unless you can dish out some actual FACTS instead of your silly, half-ass opinion then I'm not going to waste my time!!! All you have presented is your opinion, which is not even a solid opinion, and not once backed anything with any actual facts about any of the fighters, all you have done have stated what you think, or actually, what you wish and as I said if you are too stupid to to understand actual FACTS about the fighters each man fought then head back to "Neverland" because I'm not wasting my time with you!
But then again, as I said, I'm sure you probably feel that guys like Armando Diaz, Manuel Sarabia and Mauro Diaz are good opponents, but I know better and no matter how much you might try you can never make truth when it doesn't exsist...only fantasy...as you have demonstrated...I just figured you would have had sense enough to realize and understand FACT from fiction...guess I was way wrong about that!
But why don't you tell us all in detail what makes Carbajal and Gonzalez a HOFer and Gatti not...can you do that with some actual FACT, or will you just continue with the fictional nonsense?
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>>>So i don't understand barry saying that they didn't look great in their last fights.<<<
You can't even understand a simple post...I stated that Carbajal and Gonzalez...they're final two fights against one another was lack-luster, which they were...not the last fights of they're careers...which Gonbzalez was again knocked cold in by a hard-hitter with little skill and Carbajal came from behind it what may have been his most impressive performance against Arce. Can you try to pay attention or do I need to draw a picture?
>>>Barry argument for Gatti in my opinion has way to many holes cause he's trying to build up Gatti as a sure HOF and down play Carbajl and Gonzalez<<<
I said that I don't any three of them should be in the HOF, so quit making up shit. Is that what you do...you cannot present any actual FACTS, so you7 use fantasy and make believe to try to convey your debate...that's something my nephew would do, but as I said...present something logical and FACT-based and I'll listen, but the nonsense you are yapping is childish in every sense!
And by the way, for who ever said it...guys like Jimmy Wilde, Ruben Olivares, Eder Jofre, Terry McGovern...they are little legends...Carbajal and Gonzalez were just two really good fighters who benefited from mostly weak opposition in one barren division. The legend move up in weight and dominant at weights higher than one...hell if the 17 weight classes would have been around in McGoverns day he would have held titles at five, or six divisions. The Jr. Fly and Straw weight are ridiculous and should be eliminated...there just isn't enough top talent to fill those divisions and only seven pounds seperate them, but Carbajal and Gonzalez never once tried to venture out of the Jr. Fly and neither wanted anything to do with lighter Ricardo Lopez, or Ratanapol Sor Vorapin...they sure as hell did not want to risk four pounds and move up to fight flyweights...and you think that is great...that's not only laughable...it's sad. Great fighters look for challenges...they don't live out they're career's in a Jr. Division. As I said, I don't think any three are HOF worthy and I can certainly name several other flyweights who are more worthy and I can back that with actual FACT...not that it will do some of you any good since FACT is over your head!
You can't even understand a simple post...I stated that Carbajal and Gonzalez...they're final two fights against one another was lack-luster, which they were...not the last fights of they're careers...which Gonbzalez was again knocked cold in by a hard-hitter with little skill and Carbajal came from behind it what may have been his most impressive performance against Arce. Can you try to pay attention or do I need to draw a picture?
>>>Barry argument for Gatti in my opinion has way to many holes cause he's trying to build up Gatti as a sure HOF and down play Carbajl and Gonzalez<<<
I said that I don't any three of them should be in the HOF, so quit making up shit. Is that what you do...you cannot present any actual FACTS, so you7 use fantasy and make believe to try to convey your debate...that's something my nephew would do, but as I said...present something logical and FACT-based and I'll listen, but the nonsense you are yapping is childish in every sense!
And by the way, for who ever said it...guys like Jimmy Wilde, Ruben Olivares, Eder Jofre, Terry McGovern...they are little legends...Carbajal and Gonzalez were just two really good fighters who benefited from mostly weak opposition in one barren division. The legend move up in weight and dominant at weights higher than one...hell if the 17 weight classes would have been around in McGoverns day he would have held titles at five, or six divisions. The Jr. Fly and Straw weight are ridiculous and should be eliminated...there just isn't enough top talent to fill those divisions and only seven pounds seperate them, but Carbajal and Gonzalez never once tried to venture out of the Jr. Fly and neither wanted anything to do with lighter Ricardo Lopez, or Ratanapol Sor Vorapin...they sure as hell did not want to risk four pounds and move up to fight flyweights...and you think that is great...that's not only laughable...it's sad. Great fighters look for challenges...they don't live out they're career's in a Jr. Division. As I said, I don't think any three are HOF worthy and I can certainly name several other flyweights who are more worthy and I can back that with actual FACT...not that it will do some of you any good since FACT is over your head!
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What now you are calling me names, well then go and fornicate yourself you ignorant fornicator. Its clear with your dumbass logic to glorify a fucken clubfighter just because he went to war in front of a fucken camera. Ever been to a boxing show? Their are tons of fighters like Arturo Gatti who always put it on the line, yet you won't call them great. Lets look at reality, Gatti is white, so of course whatever he does is going to be glorifed to the extent of life, because not that many white fighters today -beside heavyweights- find a little bit of succes in America as Gatti has. So when one comes along, you want to ride him into the light of greatness, yet, to do that you have to be able to bring down another fighter at all cost. You are a dumb ass if im going to belive Gatti is in the same league as Carbajal or Gonzalez cause reality is he's not. And im sure you are going to be PRAYING all night long that your boy, beat up another bum, in Carlos Baldomier. You are a joke. So keep your stupidity to yourself.barry wrote:
I'm sure in your mind that you feel fighters like Armando Diaz, Manuel Sarabia, Mauro Diaz, Pablo Tiznado or a Tomas Cordoba are good opponents, which are all opponents that Carbajal and Gonzalez fought after being a champion, but as I said...I think I will stick to reality instead of fantasy and if you are too stupid to understand what makes a good fighter and what doesn't then all the facts anyone presents you is just a waste of time!
LOL! You sound like a little kid. Did I call your SUPER HERO Gatti a plain jane, lol. All Gatti is a glorified brawler, who was good but not great. Always at the right time. Shit if he had ever fought Paul Spadafora, Spadafora would have out boxed him for 12 rounds. Spadafora has more skills then your boy Gatti and he's got heart, but is a more smarter fighter then your glorified brawler. He lost to Micky Ward, LOL, and to pillow gloves Ivan Robinson, LOL, oh and to Angel Manfredy, LOL. Your boy was a Champion and thats it. He never defended nearly as many times as Carbajal or Gonzalez did, which are facts. Carbajal and Gonzalez both were at one time feared and were undisputed Champion and thats a fact too, STUPID. Your hate for Carbajal and Gonzalez doesn't allow you to see past Gattis balls. Can you actually belive their was a World Champion who defended his title many times.....the media then call his opponets "BUM OF THE MONTH" Im sure you would say surely if this Champion fought Bums, surely he is not in the hall of fame? Well he is and his name is Joe Louis . See when you clear out a division, then you have left whom ever is left. Only Great fighers who have cleared out their division can say "i fought whos left" you'd probably say he didn't fight so and so, lol. Fucken ignorant. To think, I actually respected you, then to come at me like you did and try to pass off Gatti as an Elit fighter, then to call me stupid, fornicate off ass hole. I might not know a lot of Carbajal and Gonzalez but I seen them near their end and read about them in magazines, past and present. But I seen with my own eyes and followed Gattis career to know that man is not in Carbajal or Gonzalez level.As I said in my last post...unless you can dish out some actual FACTS instead of your silly, half-ass opinion then I'm not going to waste my time!!! All you have presented is your opinion, which is not even a solid opinion, and not once backed anything with any actual facts about any of the fighters, all you have done have stated what you think, or actually, what you wish and as I said if you are too stupid to to understand actual FACTS about the fighters each man fought then head back to "Neverland" because I'm not wasting my time with you!
You know, why'd you even reply? All you replied for is too call me stupid and dumb, fornicate you. You really added nothing to this response of yours. And really shows how ignorant you really are about Carbajal and Gonzalez career. In your fantasy land Arturo Gatti stands their with Rocky Marciano right? LOL!But then again, as I said, I'm sure you probably feel that guys like Armando Diaz, Manuel Sarabia and Mauro Diaz are good opponents, but I know better and no matter how much you might try you can never make truth when it doesn't exsist...only fantasy...as you have demonstrated...I just figured you would have had sense enough to realize and understand FACT from fiction...guess I was way wrong about that!
LOL! Let me guess, you will also let in Micky Ward in to the Hall of Fame, right? Cause after all he did defeat Arturo Gatii. Wait....wait....then you also have to let in Ivan Robinson, after all he defeated Gatti twice........wait......wait.......you also have to let in Angel Manfredy after all he also defeated Gatii.........and theirs another fighter Gatti lost too i just don't remember his name, but its on boxrec files.But why don't you tell us all in detail what makes Carbajal and Gonzalez a HOFer and Gatti not...can you do that with some actual FACT, or will you just continue with the fictional nonsense?
So don't try and fool me that Gatti had a better career then Carbajal or Gonzalez or that he's even on par with Carbajal and Gonzalez,which is laughable. I hope next time you try to pass off Gatti for more then he is some else pulls his card. Im sure you'll be praying hard for Gatti to beat anothe bum in Baldomier, im sure you'll pray hard and you will piss your pants if he wins, calling for him to be first ballot, lol.
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As I said from the beginning...if you don't have the know how, or intelligence to make any kind of solid debate based on FACTS and choose to live in a fantasy-world then it's a waste of time...as to calling you names...well if you are going to insult people you need to realize that you will get it back, but please quit crying because someone does it better...that's like Scott...who's still fornicating whining from two months ago!
Now if you want to present something intelligent about the fighters then please do so...do something like compare the competition of each fighter, you know something that is backed by logic insteaed of fantasy, though the way you sound I doubt very much that you know much about the competition of each, but you could try and might even surprise me, but the steady yapping of "he's great cause I know he is great" is as fornicating dense as Scott!
Scott---You see that I ignore your sad ass for the last two months, yet here you are back for another round of humiliation, I guess it's difficult when you have been made to look the fool and I suppose that's why you chose to came back after me two months later, but remember the last time...I'll verbally bitch-slap you silly, so why don't you try something original and stay to yourself, or at least ignore me as I have ignored you but if you continue I'll give it back better than you can take it, which you already know!!!
Now if you want to present something intelligent about the fighters then please do so...do something like compare the competition of each fighter, you know something that is backed by logic insteaed of fantasy, though the way you sound I doubt very much that you know much about the competition of each, but you could try and might even surprise me, but the steady yapping of "he's great cause I know he is great" is as fornicating dense as Scott!
Scott---You see that I ignore your sad ass for the last two months, yet here you are back for another round of humiliation, I guess it's difficult when you have been made to look the fool and I suppose that's why you chose to came back after me two months later, but remember the last time...I'll verbally bitch-slap you silly, so why don't you try something original and stay to yourself, or at least ignore me as I have ignored you but if you continue I'll give it back better than you can take it, which you already know!!!
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>>>So don't try and fool me that Gatti had a better career then Carbajal or Gonzalez or that he's even on par with Carbajal and Gonzalez,which is laughable. I hope next time you try to pass off Gatti for more then he is some else pulls his card. Im sure you'll be praying hard for Gatti to beat anothe bum in Baldomier, im sure you'll pray hard and you will piss your pants if he wins, calling for him to be first ballot, lol.<<<
Ferocity you are too fornicating stupid to even comprehend a debate. I never once stated that Gatti had a better career...I said that his career was just as good as Carbajal and Gonzalez and that it is probably better...which the actual FACTS prove, but I stated that none deserved to be in the HOF in my opinion, but it's idiotic beginners like you that ruin the sport by assumming that one fight makes a fighter HOF worthy. That is why people like you will never be a voter for anything of any consenquence unless you can actually start to distinguish FACT from fiction and when you can't you just make up whiny shit. I'm done here as it is a waste of time, but I would entertain a comparision of the opposition of each fighter, but since I have already did all the work proving the other facts I'll leave that to you, that is if you have the ability to do it...which I doubt very seriously!!!
Ferocity you are too fornicating stupid to even comprehend a debate. I never once stated that Gatti had a better career...I said that his career was just as good as Carbajal and Gonzalez and that it is probably better...which the actual FACTS prove, but I stated that none deserved to be in the HOF in my opinion, but it's idiotic beginners like you that ruin the sport by assumming that one fight makes a fighter HOF worthy. That is why people like you will never be a voter for anything of any consenquence unless you can actually start to distinguish FACT from fiction and when you can't you just make up whiny shit. I'm done here as it is a waste of time, but I would entertain a comparision of the opposition of each fighter, but since I have already did all the work proving the other facts I'll leave that to you, that is if you have the ability to do it...which I doubt very seriously!!!
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I would call myself a Carbajal & Gonzalez convert. I'm sure somebody would be able to quote me as saying I don't want to see Carbajal in the HOF. I've changed my mind. I credit both guys for fighting each other, which is no small feat, even if the subseqyent two fights were frankly dull. There were lapses in their opposition that you point out, but I think for Carbajal, winning one of the most important fights in the division's history & stopping Arce are real high points. Beating Grigsby in his pro dbut looks better now for Carbajal. He also beat an Olympic medallist KS Kim, who was pretty good, and Muanchai Kittikassem is a top name. So, connecting the dots, Carbajal has beaten some top top names. I can't think of anyone else that he absolutely needed to fight: he fought Matlala, who caned him, but Matlala was a little monster.barry wrote:>>>So i don't understand barry saying that they didn't look great in their last fights.<<<
You can't even understand a simple post...I stated that Carbajal and Gonzalez...they're final two fights against one another was lack-luster, which they were...not the last fights of they're careers...which Gonbzalez was again knocked cold in by a hard-hitter with little skill and Carbajal came from behind it what may have been his most impressive performance against Arce. Can you try to pay attention or do I need to draw a picture?
>>>Barry argument for Gatti in my opinion has way to many holes cause he's trying to build up Gatti as a sure HOF and down play Carbajl and Gonzalez<<<
I said that I don't any three of them should be in the HOF, so quit making up shit. Is that what you do...you cannot present any actual FACTS, so you7 use fantasy and make believe to try to convey your debate...that's something my nephew would do, but as I said...present something logical and FACT-based and I'll listen, but the nonsense you are yapping is childish in every sense!
And by the way, for who ever said it...guys like Jimmy Wilde, Ruben Olivares, Eder Jofre, Terry McGovern...they are little legends...Carbajal and Gonzalez were just two really good fighters who benefited from mostly weak opposition in one barren division. The legend move up in weight and dominant at weights higher than one...hell if the 17 weight classes would have been around in McGoverns day he would have held titles at five, or six divisions. The Jr. Fly and Straw weight are ridiculous and should be eliminated...there just isn't enough top talent to fill those divisions and only seven pounds seperate them, but Carbajal and Gonzalez never once tried to venture out of the Jr. Fly and neither wanted anything to do with lighter Ricardo Lopez, or Ratanapol Sor Vorapin...they sure as hell did not want to risk four pounds and move up to fight flyweights...and you think that is great...that's not only laughable...it's sad. Great fighters look for challenges...they don't live out they're career's in a Jr. Division. As I said, I don't think any three are HOF worthy and I can certainly name several other flyweights who are more worthy and I can back that with actual FACT...not that it will do some of you any good since FACT is over your head!
I don't have a problem with them having been in a junior division. Like I say, taking on those names is a major thing. You could fault Tapia for not wanting Mark Johnson, and by a lot of accounts the greatest tiny guy of the last 15 yrs, Ricardo Lopez didn't want Carbajal. i don't know this for sure, but I've heared it said.
Carbajal is a little guy who has defining fights. That cannot be said for brilliant little men like Vorapin & Sahaprom & Khaosai Galaxy.
Gonzalez is easier to fault, as he was KO'd in 2 fights he was supposed to win easy. But that is counterbalanced by beating Carbajal twice & he wa a prolific champion.
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viciousmaussa---What you say is true and you present it in an intelligent and logical manner of debate. I don't try to dismiss, or deny any of it, which a certain dumbass cannot seem to comprehend no matter how plain I may state it. Carbajal was one of my favorite fighters to watch, but them being far superior to Gatti...well as the facts of the issue show they are three similar fighters in terms of accomplishment and worth in the ring.
Although I feel that Gonzalez fought the better competition overall between he and Carbajal, "Little Hands of Stone" did have some good wins over some very good oppostion, as you said, but neither man had superior opposition to Gatti.
All I am saying and all I have been saying is that neither Carbajal, or Gonzalez are more worthy than Gatti for Hall of Fame consideration...though I feel that none of the three truly deserve the HOF when there are several others of they're size who fought and beat better competition, but as far as Carbajal and Gonzalez having much more superior careers than Gatti...it's just not the case and incorrect. I've enjoyed watching all three of the fighters and have no bias moreso toward any one fighter...I'm just going by the actual facts of they're career's and what they accomplished in the ring.
Carbajal was a better boxer than Gatti, so was Gonzalez, but that is beside the point...it's not a matter of them being better skilled, but what did they accomplish in the ring that makes a fighters worth and when it comes to accomplishment in the ring, Gatti has had a more successful career than both little guys...which can be seen from the stats and from the competition that each man faced throughout they're career...which is very similar, but no one of the three are far superior than each and anyone who thinks they are just simply has no idea as to what they are talking about.
Although I feel that Gonzalez fought the better competition overall between he and Carbajal, "Little Hands of Stone" did have some good wins over some very good oppostion, as you said, but neither man had superior opposition to Gatti.
All I am saying and all I have been saying is that neither Carbajal, or Gonzalez are more worthy than Gatti for Hall of Fame consideration...though I feel that none of the three truly deserve the HOF when there are several others of they're size who fought and beat better competition, but as far as Carbajal and Gonzalez having much more superior careers than Gatti...it's just not the case and incorrect. I've enjoyed watching all three of the fighters and have no bias moreso toward any one fighter...I'm just going by the actual facts of they're career's and what they accomplished in the ring.
Carbajal was a better boxer than Gatti, so was Gonzalez, but that is beside the point...it's not a matter of them being better skilled, but what did they accomplish in the ring that makes a fighters worth and when it comes to accomplishment in the ring, Gatti has had a more successful career than both little guys...which can be seen from the stats and from the competition that each man faced throughout they're career...which is very similar, but no one of the three are far superior than each and anyone who thinks they are just simply has no idea as to what they are talking about.
What I could count against Gatti, not only losses to Manfredy & Robinson which were part of his career slump, is that he got the living daylights beaten out of him by A-fighters like dlh & mayweather. so i would make a case for Carbajal & Gonzalez for reasons above, but I would vomit if Gatti were to make the hall.
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Well Mayweather and especially De La Hoya are all-time greats who have beat the daylightsa out of a lot of A Level fighters, so that's not something that I hold against Gatti.
As far as grades I certainly think that both Gonzalez and Carbajal were A+ Level fighters in terms of they're skill and ability where Gatti is an A-, or maybe a B+, but as I have mentioned, they're careers are very similar in terms of accomplishment and no one is far superior than the other, but as Bert Sugar said, if fighters like Carbajal and Gonzalez can make the HOF, then why not Gatti...he certainly accomplished as much as either of the other two.
Personally, I would have prefered to see someone like Jackie Paterson, Chartchai Chionoi or Sot Chitlada elected before Carbajal and Gonzalez of the lighter weights, but overall...guys like Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall are way, way more deserving than Carbajal, or Gonzalez.
There is no denying the importance that Carbajal and Gonzalez played to the financial status of the smallest fighters, but that is not something they did in the ring...it's due to what they did in the ring, but it is not an issue that relates to they're fighting accomplishments.
As far as grades I certainly think that both Gonzalez and Carbajal were A+ Level fighters in terms of they're skill and ability where Gatti is an A-, or maybe a B+, but as I have mentioned, they're careers are very similar in terms of accomplishment and no one is far superior than the other, but as Bert Sugar said, if fighters like Carbajal and Gonzalez can make the HOF, then why not Gatti...he certainly accomplished as much as either of the other two.
Personally, I would have prefered to see someone like Jackie Paterson, Chartchai Chionoi or Sot Chitlada elected before Carbajal and Gonzalez of the lighter weights, but overall...guys like Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall are way, way more deserving than Carbajal, or Gonzalez.
There is no denying the importance that Carbajal and Gonzalez played to the financial status of the smallest fighters, but that is not something they did in the ring...it's due to what they did in the ring, but it is not an issue that relates to they're fighting accomplishments.
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As to they're opposition...truly the only A level talent that Carbajal faced, other than Gonzalez, was Jorge Arce and probably Mauricio Pastrana, Melchor Cob Castro, Jake Matlala and Muangchai Kittikasem...the rest were B level fighters.
For Gonzalez the other A level opposition that he faced was Jung-Koo Chang and probably Melchor Cob Castro and maybe Saman Sorjaturong (though many would argue that he is not an A level fighter, but lets give him the benfit of the doubt).
For Gatti, the other A level opposition that he faced other than De La Hoya and Mayweather was Leonard Dorin, Gabe Ruelas, probably Tracy Harris Patterson and Jesse James Leija…the rest were arguably B level opponents.
All very similar…is it not? And if not then why?
As far as facing ranked fighters, I would be willing to bet the title to my Jeep that Gatti fought more top ten ranked opponents than either Carbajal, or Gonzalez, but I don’t really want to put the time into proving that, but it would be some more pretty strong evidence to support my position.
For Gonzalez the other A level opposition that he faced was Jung-Koo Chang and probably Melchor Cob Castro and maybe Saman Sorjaturong (though many would argue that he is not an A level fighter, but lets give him the benfit of the doubt).
For Gatti, the other A level opposition that he faced other than De La Hoya and Mayweather was Leonard Dorin, Gabe Ruelas, probably Tracy Harris Patterson and Jesse James Leija…the rest were arguably B level opponents.
All very similar…is it not? And if not then why?
As far as facing ranked fighters, I would be willing to bet the title to my Jeep that Gatti fought more top ten ranked opponents than either Carbajal, or Gonzalez, but I don’t really want to put the time into proving that, but it would be some more pretty strong evidence to support my position.
Barry you are all wet on this one -
Carbjal and H. Gonzalez were two very good fighters who beat plenty of very solid competition (just because you might not follow the smaller guys doesn't mean they beat bums....or by doing a "record check" you can tell if they were solid competition or not).
Gatti is fun to watch....but he is a B level type fighter with a punch and some heart - However to me he is clearly not on Carbajal or Gonzalez's level.
Carbjal and H. Gonzalez were two very good fighters who beat plenty of very solid competition (just because you might not follow the smaller guys doesn't mean they beat bums....or by doing a "record check" you can tell if they were solid competition or not).
Gatti is fun to watch....but he is a B level type fighter with a punch and some heart - However to me he is clearly not on Carbajal or Gonzalez's level.