At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
1956 was the year that Floyd Patterson beat Archie Moore for the heavyweight title. Could a prime Jimmy Elliis have pulled off the same trick against a Moore at that same stage of his career?
Re: At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
Ellis and Moore are in a quite similar HW situation, but there're some circumstances, which make it look like Ellis was a much better HW.
First of all, Ellis was realized the most at HW, while Moore was at LHW. Secondly, Ellis became overachieved, as he appeared in a lucky situation of a split of the titles, which was unusial for the era. Ellis was able to grab the vacant belt against the contender, who would never become a major force of the division.
In reality both Ellis and Moore faced good opposition and were able to capture some decent scalps, while both, being more or less credible, clearly lost to the best guys, Moore to Rocky and Patterson, Ellis to Frazier and Ali.
The fact of Moore losing to Patterson, while Ellis winning Patterson doesn't work like it looks like. Moore lost to the prime Patterson, Ellis got a controversial decision over declined Patterson.
Head-to-head Moore was a much more tricky and tough operator. I'd pick Moore over Ellis by dec or late TKO.
First of all, Ellis was realized the most at HW, while Moore was at LHW. Secondly, Ellis became overachieved, as he appeared in a lucky situation of a split of the titles, which was unusial for the era. Ellis was able to grab the vacant belt against the contender, who would never become a major force of the division.
In reality both Ellis and Moore faced good opposition and were able to capture some decent scalps, while both, being more or less credible, clearly lost to the best guys, Moore to Rocky and Patterson, Ellis to Frazier and Ali.
The fact of Moore losing to Patterson, while Ellis winning Patterson doesn't work like it looks like. Moore lost to the prime Patterson, Ellis got a controversial decision over declined Patterson.
Head-to-head Moore was a much more tricky and tough operator. I'd pick Moore over Ellis by dec or late TKO.
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HomicideHenry
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Re: At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
Never was too impressed with Ellis. The only fights he had that sticks out to my mind was how Floyd Patterson was robbed of a third title, and Ellis being basically Joe Frazier's last win of any real consequence. Oh, and how Jerry Quarry lost a competitive decision to Ellis while having a broken back.
Archie Moore is extremely underrated as a heavyweight. I think people have this stigma on him because of losing to Floyd Patterson, but he was a legitimate heavyweight. I think he would have been able to do enough to win a decision over Ellis.
Archie Moore is extremely underrated as a heavyweight. I think people have this stigma on him because of losing to Floyd Patterson, but he was a legitimate heavyweight. I think he would have been able to do enough to win a decision over Ellis.
Re: At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
I'd take Ellis over the 1956 Moore, but an earlier version of Moore beats Ellis.
Re: At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
I kind of agree with goose 5 here. In 1956, I don't think that Moore was as good as he was during the 40's. He was still good enough to beat the light heavys who were around then, although not sure that he could still take Harold Johnson.
Ellis did beat Bonavena knocking him down twice, and he stopped Leotis Martin, and also beat Chuvalo. I believe that he is one of the most underrated heavyweights. His timing was bad being prime when Ali and Frazier were around. He also went 10 rounds with Ron Lyle at Lyle's home town of Denver. Ellis was 34 at the time.
Ellis did beat Bonavena knocking him down twice, and he stopped Leotis Martin, and also beat Chuvalo. I believe that he is one of the most underrated heavyweights. His timing was bad being prime when Ali and Frazier were around. He also went 10 rounds with Ron Lyle at Lyle's home town of Denver. Ellis was 34 at the time.
Re: At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
Here is a little Archie Moore story. Trying for the heavyweight title, Moore first was stopped by Rocky Marciano in 1955 and then by Floyd Patterson in November of 1956. So, in September of 1957, Moore defended his light heavyweight title against Tony Anthony, who had a record of 31 and 4. That seemed similar to Patterson's record of 30 and 1 when Floyd fought Moore. What I should have noticed is that Anthony's 4 losses were all stoppages.
I thought that Moore was probably through after being stopped by Marciano and Patterson. I figured that the Moore-Anthony fight would be Moore-Patterson all over again. After all, Anthony was an up an coming 22 year old light heavy with a record similar (?) to Patterson's when Floyd fought Archie. How wrong I was.
The old mongoose was still far from through even though his age ranged from 40 to 47. Moore stopped Anthony in the 7th round and remained the 175 lb. champion for a few more years, despite his advancing age.
As amazing as Moore was, I believe that a prime Jimmy Ellis beats Archie if he fights him when Anthony did, or when Floyd did for that matter. For one thing, it took Joe Frazier to KO Ellis for the first time and Muhammad Ali to stop Jimmy the second time. Ellis had a much better chin than Tony Anthony and a better chin than Patterson's too, I think.
I thought that Moore was probably through after being stopped by Marciano and Patterson. I figured that the Moore-Anthony fight would be Moore-Patterson all over again. After all, Anthony was an up an coming 22 year old light heavy with a record similar (?) to Patterson's when Floyd fought Archie. How wrong I was.
The old mongoose was still far from through even though his age ranged from 40 to 47. Moore stopped Anthony in the 7th round and remained the 175 lb. champion for a few more years, despite his advancing age.
As amazing as Moore was, I believe that a prime Jimmy Ellis beats Archie if he fights him when Anthony did, or when Floyd did for that matter. For one thing, it took Joe Frazier to KO Ellis for the first time and Muhammad Ali to stop Jimmy the second time. Ellis had a much better chin than Tony Anthony and a better chin than Patterson's too, I think.
Re: At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
Ellis at best at heavyweight would get the better of the 1956 Moore by out-boxing him with jabs and combinations to take a decision. If they fought their best at heavyweight, then either Ellis would beat Moore in a closer fight or Moore in another way around.
Re: At Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis vs 1956 Archie Moore
On an all time list, prime for prime, I would have Jimmy Ellis just below Floyd Patterson. I think that Ellis probably beats anyone that Patterson beat. Patterson beat Moore in 1956 and I believe that prime Ellis would too.