after all he defeated Arturo Gatti and Zab Judah 
Carlos Baldomier into the HOF, after all he defeated......
Carlos Baldomier into the HOF, after all he defeated......
Once Carlos Baldomier retires I say we let Baldomier into the HOF after all he defeated Arturo Gatti and Zab Judah
after all he defeated Arturo Gatti and Zab Judah -
sockdolager
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1455
- Joined: 17 Jun 2005, 08:57
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vagabundo55
- Heavyweight
I don't believe Gatti deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. I know he will get in because of his great fights but he definetely was not a great fighter. A good fighter definetely, but anytime he has faced a great fighter he has been destroyed. There are plenty of other fighters who are just as exciting as him though, they just never get the media attention he did. I think Gatti is a true warrior and has an A++ in the heart category but I don't think that should be enough to get in the hall of fame. I don't mind having him in the hall of fame though because he did give his all to boxing, I just think that if the hall of fame was really full of the all time greats based on skill, Gatti definetely wouldn't deserve to be there. I'd rather watch Gatti than a few fighters who are in the hall of fame though, but that doesn't mean he's better, honestly if anything it just means he gets hit more so all his fights become wars. I hope Gatti retires, he's given his 110% for the sport of boxing. I won't mind at all when they induct him into the hall of fame, even though there are plenty of other technically better, exciting fighters who don't get half the coverage he got. On a side note, hypothetically speaking, say Baldomir fights Mayweather and wins.. would people start considering him Hall of Fame material? Or would he have to prove himself some more? Personally I think Baldomir getting in is a long shot, but it would make for a very interesting story.
Persoanally I think Gatti deserves to be in the hall of fame because he's been just about the most exciting fighter in boxing for the past decade or so. I actually think that his skills are underrated by many, at his best he was a very good world class fighter... not an all time great in ability but what he did in the ring surpasses what many other more skilled fighters did in the ring.
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AndreWardFan2006
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 259
- Joined: 19 Oct 2005, 12:53
re
If Michael Carbajal and Humberto Gonzalez can be elected based on fighting each other then surely Gatti is worthy as those two are...which is what I said...after which I have said on numberous times that none of the three truly deserve to be in the HOF...
This same debate has been going on in a seperate thread, but I guess ferocity felt that he should bring back here...again!
Ferocity has trouble reading and making out simple sentences and lives in a little fantasy-world of his own...he's borderline retarded so don't hold it against him!
As I said in the other thread, most intelligent people, who really know about boxing, have a good sense of who should and who shouldn't be elected based on what the fighter actually accomplished inside the ring!!!
But then again, for every single intelligent boxing fan there are two, or three who have no clue about boxing...like ferocity!
This same debate has been going on in a seperate thread, but I guess ferocity felt that he should bring back here...again!
Ferocity has trouble reading and making out simple sentences and lives in a little fantasy-world of his own...he's borderline retarded so don't hold it against him!
As I said in the other thread, most intelligent people, who really know about boxing, have a good sense of who should and who shouldn't be elected based on what the fighter actually accomplished inside the ring!!!
But then again, for every single intelligent boxing fan there are two, or three who have no clue about boxing...like ferocity!
Re: re
barry wrote:If Michael Carbajal and Humberto Gonzalez can be elected based on fighting each other then surely Gatti is worthy as those two are...which is what I said...after which I have said on numberous times that none of the three truly deserve to be in the HOF...
This same debate has been going on in a seperate thread, but I guess ferocity felt that he should bring back here...again!
Ferocity has trouble reading and making out simple sentences and lives in a little fantasy-world of his own...he's borderline retarded so don't hold it against him!
As I said in the other thread, most intelligent people, who really know about boxing, have a good sense of who should and who shouldn't be elected based on what the fighter actually accomplished inside the ring!!!
But then again, for every single intelligent boxing fan there are two, or three who have no clue about boxing...like ferocity!
The borderline retarded is you. You have Gattis balls so tight up your ass you can't think straight. Letting in Gatti cheapens the HOF.
Its amazing it took you so long to post, i heard you crying from miles away when gotti got KO"D.
click on the link and see what Delahoya has to say about Gatti the club-fighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAYeuNckDLs
Well if youre getting into that again my view is that you cant rate Gatti over either Carbajal or Gonzarlez.... both those guys had very good careers and were in more title fights than Gatti... Gattis higher profile lets face it because he's bigger and white, looking at it that way you have to give Carbajal especially a lot of credit as he broke down the boundaries and became a star despite being Mexican and a lighter weight fighter....
Don't really see why you have to insult Ferocity just becasue he has a different view to you Barry.... simmer down man!...
Don't really see why you have to insult Ferocity just becasue he has a different view to you Barry.... simmer down man!...
Its a silly argument really, Gatti deserves to be in the Hall of fame becasue of a memorable career and being in the best fights of the last decade... Carbajal and Gonzarlez deserve recognition for being outstanding fighters in there divison and also engaing in a number of classic fights... especially Carbajal who was in probably almost as many great fights as Gatti. Those guys also deserve extra credit for gaining recognition for a weight class that is often maligned mainly by people who havent seen half the fighters that make it up.
At the end of the day its probably too easy for some fighters to get into the hall of fame and too hard for others... I belive both Davey Moore and Benny Paret are still not in the hall.... well that is just plain wrong... and there are others too.... but having said that judging by the other fighters that often get into the hall I dont see it as outrageous that either Gonzarlez, Carbajal or Gatti should find a way in also...
At the end of the day its probably too easy for some fighters to get into the hall of fame and too hard for others... I belive both Davey Moore and Benny Paret are still not in the hall.... well that is just plain wrong... and there are others too.... but having said that judging by the other fighters that often get into the hall I dont see it as outrageous that either Gonzarlez, Carbajal or Gatti should find a way in also...
re
>>>Don't really see why you have to insult Ferocity just becasue he has a different view to you Barry.... simmer down man!<<<
As is almost always the case...he started it, so why should I sit back and let an idiot like him, who knows nothing about boxing, insult me without responding back? Besides, this topic has been debated in three other threads...whats the need of starting another thread?
As to they're career...as I have always said, they all three had good careers and when it comes to skill Carbajal and Gonzalez are ahead of Gatti, but when it comes to what they accomplished between the ropes...there is not much difference at all and if one can be elected, then so should the other! Carbajal and Gonzalez had the opportunity to face a slew of fighters that would have made them legends, but they chose instead to stay at the weak jr. flyweight divison, which over time has had a number of solid fighters, but at no time in history has it ever been a division loaded with talent, which that is not the fault of Carbajal and Gonzalez...there just isn't enough fighters at that weight to make the division interesting and frankly it should be done away with, as should the starwweight division, but these jr. divisions always certain fighters to stay in them and fight the relatively weak opposition that they produce. Carbajal and Gonzalez consistenly fgailed to face the best opposition available, other than when they fought one another, but sorry, that alone does not qualify a fighter for the HOF!
Also...it's funny ferocity...I don't recall seeing you make any predictions before the Gatti-Baldomir fight, yet here you are talking shit about the result as if you knew it all along...typical!
>>>The borderline retarded is you. You have Gattis balls so tight up your ass you can't think straight. Letting in Gatti cheapens the HOF. <<<
Ferocity---You're too fornicating stupid to even repeat what I have actually and truly said about the issue and like others, who don't have the knowhow to debate in a sensible manner you instead choose to make up shit that no one has said...especially not me...typical of someone that has no clue as to what they are talking about...and for the record...the HOF was already cheapened by putting in fighters like Harris, Carbajal and Gonzalez while omitting others like Lloyd Marshall and Holman Williams, who really earned it. Tell you what little boy...why don't you spend a couple of years trying to learn something about boxing and then you might be able to debate logically instead of fictionally.
As is almost always the case...he started it, so why should I sit back and let an idiot like him, who knows nothing about boxing, insult me without responding back? Besides, this topic has been debated in three other threads...whats the need of starting another thread?
As to they're career...as I have always said, they all three had good careers and when it comes to skill Carbajal and Gonzalez are ahead of Gatti, but when it comes to what they accomplished between the ropes...there is not much difference at all and if one can be elected, then so should the other! Carbajal and Gonzalez had the opportunity to face a slew of fighters that would have made them legends, but they chose instead to stay at the weak jr. flyweight divison, which over time has had a number of solid fighters, but at no time in history has it ever been a division loaded with talent, which that is not the fault of Carbajal and Gonzalez...there just isn't enough fighters at that weight to make the division interesting and frankly it should be done away with, as should the starwweight division, but these jr. divisions always certain fighters to stay in them and fight the relatively weak opposition that they produce. Carbajal and Gonzalez consistenly fgailed to face the best opposition available, other than when they fought one another, but sorry, that alone does not qualify a fighter for the HOF!
Also...it's funny ferocity...I don't recall seeing you make any predictions before the Gatti-Baldomir fight, yet here you are talking shit about the result as if you knew it all along...typical!
>>>The borderline retarded is you. You have Gattis balls so tight up your ass you can't think straight. Letting in Gatti cheapens the HOF. <<<
Ferocity---You're too fornicating stupid to even repeat what I have actually and truly said about the issue and like others, who don't have the knowhow to debate in a sensible manner you instead choose to make up shit that no one has said...especially not me...typical of someone that has no clue as to what they are talking about...and for the record...the HOF was already cheapened by putting in fighters like Harris, Carbajal and Gonzalez while omitting others like Lloyd Marshall and Holman Williams, who really earned it. Tell you what little boy...why don't you spend a couple of years trying to learn something about boxing and then you might be able to debate logically instead of fictionally.
re
>>>I dont see it as outrageous that either Gonzarlez, Carbajal or Gatti should find a way in also<<<
Of course not...but none are first ballot HOFer's and as you stated...guys like Davey Moore and Bennie Paret are not in the Hall and they had far more credible opponents than those that have been mentioned...and there are many, many others that are more deserving than those mentioned. My arguement has been simple...Carbajal, Gonzalez and Gatti have all had careers that are very similar in what they acoomplished inside the ring and if Carbajal and Gonzalez can be elected then Gatti certainly deserves it as much as they do...though ferocity has trouble comprehending that simple statement and chooses to make up crap...if I had crayons I might try to draw it out in a picture for him!
But you are sensible silkov...do you not think that they have had similar careers and would you not say that if a Carbajal and Gonzalez can get in, then Gatti deserves it as much as those two based on ring accomplishments?
Of course not...but none are first ballot HOFer's and as you stated...guys like Davey Moore and Bennie Paret are not in the Hall and they had far more credible opponents than those that have been mentioned...and there are many, many others that are more deserving than those mentioned. My arguement has been simple...Carbajal, Gonzalez and Gatti have all had careers that are very similar in what they acoomplished inside the ring and if Carbajal and Gonzalez can be elected then Gatti certainly deserves it as much as they do...though ferocity has trouble comprehending that simple statement and chooses to make up crap...if I had crayons I might try to draw it out in a picture for him!
But you are sensible silkov...do you not think that they have had similar careers and would you not say that if a Carbajal and Gonzalez can get in, then Gatti deserves it as much as those two based on ring accomplishments?
Ferocitys original beef was against Sugars attitude to Gonzarlez and Carbajal... when he basically said that those guys are in tha hall so why not Gatti.... the insinuation is obviously that Sugar doesnt rate either Gonzalez or Carbajal that highly... and I agree with Ferocity on this point that Sugar is being insulting to both those fighters... I doubt he's even seen many of their fights......
re
The actual facts of the topic, which I presented in one of the other threads last week, speak pretty loudly!
By numbers, between the three, Gatti faced the better competition. Gatti fought more champions than either little guy did...he faced more top ten rated opponents than either little guy did, he won belts in two divisions and moved up four divisions and a total of 17 pounds in weight and was a top ten ranked fighter in each division he fought in being successful at each weight. As far as HOF fighters, or probable HOF fighters that the three faced it was even with 2 to 4 that each fighter faced and they all had similar records in each.
Those are actual FACTS of the debate. I have asked ferocity several times to present some actual FACTS and not half-ass opinions, to counter with but he just continues either making up shit that I never said, or just stating his same opinion over and over...he has failed to bring any actual FACTS about the topic!
Hence my stating that if Carbajal and Gonzalez are HOF worthy, then so is Gatti, but as I have said numberous times...I would not have any of the three in the HOF...not right now anyways...maybe 10, or 20 years down the road when there is a relatively weak HOF class to vote from, then probably, but not right now...not when there are so many others who are a lot more worthy to be voted in!
By numbers, between the three, Gatti faced the better competition. Gatti fought more champions than either little guy did...he faced more top ten rated opponents than either little guy did, he won belts in two divisions and moved up four divisions and a total of 17 pounds in weight and was a top ten ranked fighter in each division he fought in being successful at each weight. As far as HOF fighters, or probable HOF fighters that the three faced it was even with 2 to 4 that each fighter faced and they all had similar records in each.
Those are actual FACTS of the debate. I have asked ferocity several times to present some actual FACTS and not half-ass opinions, to counter with but he just continues either making up shit that I never said, or just stating his same opinion over and over...he has failed to bring any actual FACTS about the topic!
Hence my stating that if Carbajal and Gonzalez are HOF worthy, then so is Gatti, but as I have said numberous times...I would not have any of the three in the HOF...not right now anyways...maybe 10, or 20 years down the road when there is a relatively weak HOF class to vote from, then probably, but not right now...not when there are so many others who are a lot more worthy to be voted in!
I have no problem with Gatti getting in the hall of fame because of what he gave to boxing... it depends what your criteria is for getting in the Hall... is it how many titles/title fights you've won, how many great fights?... how skilled you are?.... Gatti gets in basically for having such a memorable career filled with classic fights... he was never an all time great in pure abailty but its also unfair to say that he was a clubfighter... he certainly had world class power, and heart...
re
>>>Gatti gets in basically for having such a memorable career filled with classic fights... he was never an all time great in pure abailty but its also unfair to say that he was a clubfighter... he certainly had world class power, and heart<<<
That's pretty much what I have been saying and as I have said time and again that Gatti has had just as successful a career as Carbajal and Gonzalez...but ferocitry thinks that Carbajal and Gonzalez are all-time legends compared to Gatti who he states is a club-fighter. I'm not putting down none of the fighters...I have just been stating that Gatti is just as worthy as Gonzalez and Carbajal, which from all the actual FACTS about the issue, is pretty accurate. Ferocity just has his tongue so far up the ass of Carbajal and Gonzalez that he is clueless to right and wrong and lives in his little fantasy land.
That's pretty much what I have been saying and as I have said time and again that Gatti has had just as successful a career as Carbajal and Gonzalez...but ferocitry thinks that Carbajal and Gonzalez are all-time legends compared to Gatti who he states is a club-fighter. I'm not putting down none of the fighters...I have just been stating that Gatti is just as worthy as Gonzalez and Carbajal, which from all the actual FACTS about the issue, is pretty accurate. Ferocity just has his tongue so far up the ass of Carbajal and Gonzalez that he is clueless to right and wrong and lives in his little fantasy land.
I think boxers should be put in the hall for certain things... like maybe have a part of the hall for exciting fighters, and another for sheer ability.... I actaully find it quite heartening that two little guys like Carbajal and Gonzarlez have got in the hall...
regarding the competition I dont think theres that much in it, Gatti faced some very good fighters, the best of whom (mayweather and Oscar) beat him onesidedly... but Gonzarlez and Carbajal were fighting top competition from early in their careers, and fought more world title fights... Crabajal especially had a merteroric rise... pound for pound I'd say generally that Carbajals opponents edge out Gattis... Arce for one is still one of the best in his division and Micheal beat him in his last fight when he was past his best. They also didnt have the weight advantages going into fights that Gatti did... when he was at about 130 he often went into the ring at 150 there abouts... you cant really knock either Gonzarlez or Carbajal foir staying in their natural division
regarding the competition I dont think theres that much in it, Gatti faced some very good fighters, the best of whom (mayweather and Oscar) beat him onesidedly... but Gonzarlez and Carbajal were fighting top competition from early in their careers, and fought more world title fights... Crabajal especially had a merteroric rise... pound for pound I'd say generally that Carbajals opponents edge out Gattis... Arce for one is still one of the best in his division and Micheal beat him in his last fight when he was past his best. They also didnt have the weight advantages going into fights that Gatti did... when he was at about 130 he often went into the ring at 150 there abouts... you cant really knock either Gonzarlez or Carbajal foir staying in their natural division
re
>>>think boxers should be put in the hall for certain things... like maybe have a part of the hall for exciting fighters, and another for sheer ability....<<<
I think it should mainly be what the fighter accomplished within the ropes…such as who he fought and how he won. I think the most essential lies with who the person faced.
>>>I actaully find it quite heartening that two little guys like Carbajal and Gonzarlez have got in the hall... <<<
I agree that smaller fighters do not get the attention that they deserve, but there are many others that are now forgotten...such as Black Bill of the 30s, Ruby Bradley, Small Montana, Pone Kingpetch and many, many others. One of the main reasons why Carbajal and Gonzalez were elected first ballot is just like many others who have been elected…they are still alive and the HOF owners gain financially by having fighters present as compared to honoring fighters who have passed on, or those who can not make the HOF weekend…that plays in a lot more than people may think as to who gets in and who don’t.
>>>regarding the competition I don’t think theres that much in it, Gatti faced some very good fighters, the best of whom (mayweather and Oscar) beat him onesidedly... but Gonzarlez and Carbajal were fighting top competition from early in their careers, and fought more world title fights... Crabajal especially had a merteroric rise... pound for pound I'd say generally that Carbajals opponents edge out Gattis...
As to competition...look over they’re career’s very closely...go back and see who were ranked fighters and who weren't and check the opposition of the fighters that each man fought. Of the three Carbajal seemed to have the weakest competition...based on the numbers, which most of the time mean very little, unless it is in comparison. Carbajal came into the pro ranks with a lot of backing and hoopla to start with being an Olympic silver medalist who had a very successful amateur career.
>>>Arce for one is still one of the best in his division and Micheal beat him in his last fight when he was past his best. They also didnt have the weight advantages going into fights that Gatti did... when he was at about 130 he often went into the ring at 150 there abouts... <<<
Arce is a hell of a fighter and in he beat the complete shit out of Carbajal until Carbajal landed, which that was no doubt his most courageous fight…the best he looked in my opinion was in his first title bout against Kittikasem, who was a really good fighter.
>>>you cant really knock either Gonzarlez or Carbajal foir staying in their natural division<<<
Well I have to disagree with that, I wouldn’t so much for a weight that has several pounds in between…such as light heavyweight to cruiser, or others of 7, or 8 pounds in between each, but jr. fly at 108, is surrounded by the starweights at 105 and the regular flyweights at 112…that’s only 7 pounds for three divisions and if you add three more pounds to flyweight you get the jr.bantamweight (four divisions which are separated by a total of ten pounds) and for a division that is notoriously so devoid of steady top flight fighters then I would have to hold it against the fighter especially in this case as there were so many fights that could have, and probably should have been made between straw and flyweight, but they were not made, which is not all the fault of Carbajal, or Gonzalez, but they should bare just as much blame as the other fighter…flyweights like Yuri Arbachakov, Sot Chitlada, Danny Romero, Johnny Tapia, Fidel Bassa, Duke McKenzie, Phichit Sithbangprachen, David Griman, Saen Sow Ploenchit, Alberto Jimenez, Hiroki Ioka, Dave McAuley, Elvis Alvarez, Mark Johnson and several others who at one time held one of the big three world titles.
Or even in they’re own division, or lower weight…Myung Woo Yuh, German Torres, Isidro Torres, Jose DeJesus, Ala Villamour, Ratanapol Sor Voraphin, Chana Porpaoin, Hi Yong Choi, Alex Sanchez, Rosendo Alvarez and of course Ricardo Lopez.
Now if they had faced the likes of those mentioned, which are fights that should have been made, then they would certainly have earned the Hall, but I just find it hard to rank a fighter to the hall based on the following opposition, which is pretty much the best of Carbajal’s opposition…Humberto Gonzalez, Jorge Arce, Maungchai Kittikasem, Melchor Cob Castro, Jesus Chong, Mauricio Pastrana and Jake Matlala…of which against those seven he lost to three of. While that is good opposition…it isn’t stellar and certainly a lot better matches could have been made compared to fights against the likes of Leon Salazar, Joshua Camacho, Marcario Santos, or Kwang Kim.
The same can be pointed out in the record of Gonzalez and it can be pointed out in the record of Gatti. Sorry, but I just feel that a fighter should not only be truly special, but he should also prove it consistently in the ring. I just feel that there are many, many other fighters who are more worthy than any of the three of the debate to be elected to the HOF. As I have said, it most certainly does not mean that Carbajal, or Gonzalez were no good…it does not mean that they were not successful…it just simply points, in my opinion, that they did not do enough, which it wasn’t a case of them not having the opportunity to do better because they did have the opportunity but chose not to take advantage.
I think it should mainly be what the fighter accomplished within the ropes…such as who he fought and how he won. I think the most essential lies with who the person faced.
>>>I actaully find it quite heartening that two little guys like Carbajal and Gonzarlez have got in the hall... <<<
I agree that smaller fighters do not get the attention that they deserve, but there are many others that are now forgotten...such as Black Bill of the 30s, Ruby Bradley, Small Montana, Pone Kingpetch and many, many others. One of the main reasons why Carbajal and Gonzalez were elected first ballot is just like many others who have been elected…they are still alive and the HOF owners gain financially by having fighters present as compared to honoring fighters who have passed on, or those who can not make the HOF weekend…that plays in a lot more than people may think as to who gets in and who don’t.
>>>regarding the competition I don’t think theres that much in it, Gatti faced some very good fighters, the best of whom (mayweather and Oscar) beat him onesidedly... but Gonzarlez and Carbajal were fighting top competition from early in their careers, and fought more world title fights... Crabajal especially had a merteroric rise... pound for pound I'd say generally that Carbajals opponents edge out Gattis...
As to competition...look over they’re career’s very closely...go back and see who were ranked fighters and who weren't and check the opposition of the fighters that each man fought. Of the three Carbajal seemed to have the weakest competition...based on the numbers, which most of the time mean very little, unless it is in comparison. Carbajal came into the pro ranks with a lot of backing and hoopla to start with being an Olympic silver medalist who had a very successful amateur career.
>>>Arce for one is still one of the best in his division and Micheal beat him in his last fight when he was past his best. They also didnt have the weight advantages going into fights that Gatti did... when he was at about 130 he often went into the ring at 150 there abouts... <<<
Arce is a hell of a fighter and in he beat the complete shit out of Carbajal until Carbajal landed, which that was no doubt his most courageous fight…the best he looked in my opinion was in his first title bout against Kittikasem, who was a really good fighter.
>>>you cant really knock either Gonzarlez or Carbajal foir staying in their natural division<<<
Well I have to disagree with that, I wouldn’t so much for a weight that has several pounds in between…such as light heavyweight to cruiser, or others of 7, or 8 pounds in between each, but jr. fly at 108, is surrounded by the starweights at 105 and the regular flyweights at 112…that’s only 7 pounds for three divisions and if you add three more pounds to flyweight you get the jr.bantamweight (four divisions which are separated by a total of ten pounds) and for a division that is notoriously so devoid of steady top flight fighters then I would have to hold it against the fighter especially in this case as there were so many fights that could have, and probably should have been made between straw and flyweight, but they were not made, which is not all the fault of Carbajal, or Gonzalez, but they should bare just as much blame as the other fighter…flyweights like Yuri Arbachakov, Sot Chitlada, Danny Romero, Johnny Tapia, Fidel Bassa, Duke McKenzie, Phichit Sithbangprachen, David Griman, Saen Sow Ploenchit, Alberto Jimenez, Hiroki Ioka, Dave McAuley, Elvis Alvarez, Mark Johnson and several others who at one time held one of the big three world titles.
Or even in they’re own division, or lower weight…Myung Woo Yuh, German Torres, Isidro Torres, Jose DeJesus, Ala Villamour, Ratanapol Sor Voraphin, Chana Porpaoin, Hi Yong Choi, Alex Sanchez, Rosendo Alvarez and of course Ricardo Lopez.
Now if they had faced the likes of those mentioned, which are fights that should have been made, then they would certainly have earned the Hall, but I just find it hard to rank a fighter to the hall based on the following opposition, which is pretty much the best of Carbajal’s opposition…Humberto Gonzalez, Jorge Arce, Maungchai Kittikasem, Melchor Cob Castro, Jesus Chong, Mauricio Pastrana and Jake Matlala…of which against those seven he lost to three of. While that is good opposition…it isn’t stellar and certainly a lot better matches could have been made compared to fights against the likes of Leon Salazar, Joshua Camacho, Marcario Santos, or Kwang Kim.
The same can be pointed out in the record of Gonzalez and it can be pointed out in the record of Gatti. Sorry, but I just feel that a fighter should not only be truly special, but he should also prove it consistently in the ring. I just feel that there are many, many other fighters who are more worthy than any of the three of the debate to be elected to the HOF. As I have said, it most certainly does not mean that Carbajal, or Gonzalez were no good…it does not mean that they were not successful…it just simply points, in my opinion, that they did not do enough, which it wasn’t a case of them not having the opportunity to do better because they did have the opportunity but chose not to take advantage.
Re: re
Well when did they have this opportunity and not take advantage of it?... also I disagree that Carbajals opposition was poor, I have 90% of his fights and I dont see how you can call his opposition weak... like I said theres not much in it but Carbajal boxed steadily in world class for 90% of his career... I never seen him in with someone who couldnt fight...barry wrote:>>>think boxers should be put in the hall for certain things... like maybe have a part of the hall for exciting fighters, and another for sheer ability....<<<
I think it should mainly be what the fighter accomplished within the ropes…such as who he fought and how he won. I think the most essential lies with who the person faced.
>>>I actaully find it quite heartening that two little guys like Carbajal and Gonzarlez have got in the hall... <<<
I agree that smaller fighters do not get the attention that they deserve, but there are many others that are now forgotten...such as Black Bill of the 30s, Ruby Bradley, Small Montana, Pone Kingpetch and many, many others. One of the main reasons why Carbajal and Gonzalez were elected first ballot is just like many others who have been elected…they are still alive and the HOF owners gain financially by having fighters present as compared to honoring fighters who have passed on, or those who can not make the HOF weekend…that plays in a lot more than people may think as to who gets in and who don’t.
>>>regarding the competition I don’t think theres that much in it, Gatti faced some very good fighters, the best of whom (mayweather and Oscar) beat him onesidedly... but Gonzarlez and Carbajal were fighting top competition from early in their careers, and fought more world title fights... Crabajal especially had a merteroric rise... pound for pound I'd say generally that Carbajals opponents edge out Gattis...
As to competition...look over they’re career’s very closely...go back and see who were ranked fighters and who weren't and check the opposition of the fighters that each man fought. Of the three Carbajal seemed to have the weakest competition...based on the numbers, which most of the time mean very little, unless it is in comparison. Carbajal came into the pro ranks with a lot of backing and hoopla to start with being an Olympic silver medalist who had a very successful amateur career.
>>>Arce for one is still one of the best in his division and Micheal beat him in his last fight when he was past his best. They also didnt have the weight advantages going into fights that Gatti did... when he was at about 130 he often went into the ring at 150 there abouts... <<<
Arce is a hell of a fighter and in he beat the complete shit out of Carbajal until Carbajal landed, which that was no doubt his most courageous fight…the best he looked in my opinion was in his first title bout against Kittikasem, who was a really good fighter.
>>>you cant really knock either Gonzarlez or Carbajal foir staying in their natural division<<<
Well I have to disagree with that, I wouldn’t so much for a weight that has several pounds in between…such as light heavyweight to cruiser, or others of 7, or 8 pounds in between each, but jr. fly at 108, is surrounded by the starweights at 105 and the regular flyweights at 112…that’s only 7 pounds for three divisions and if you add three more pounds to flyweight you get the jr.bantamweight (four divisions which are separated by a total of ten pounds) and for a division that is notoriously so devoid of steady top flight fighters then I would have to hold it against the fighter especially in this case as there were so many fights that could have, and probably should have been made between straw and flyweight, but they were not made, which is not all the fault of Carbajal, or Gonzalez, but they should bare just as much blame as the other fighter…flyweights like Yuri Arbachakov, Sot Chitlada, Danny Romero, Johnny Tapia, Fidel Bassa, Duke McKenzie, Phichit Sithbangprachen, David Griman, Saen Sow Ploenchit, Alberto Jimenez, Hiroki Ioka, Dave McAuley, Elvis Alvarez, Mark Johnson and several others who at one time held one of the big three world titles.
Or even in they’re own division, or lower weight…Myung Woo Yuh, German Torres, Isidro Torres, Jose DeJesus, Ala Villamour, Ratanapol Sor Voraphin, Chana Porpaoin, Hi Yong Choi, Alex Sanchez, Rosendo Alvarez and of course Ricardo Lopez.
Now if they had faced the likes of those mentioned, which are fights that should have been made, then they would certainly have earned the Hall, but I just find it hard to rank a fighter to the hall based on the following opposition, which is pretty much the best of Carbajal’s opposition…Humberto Gonzalez, Jorge Arce, Maungchai Kittikasem, Melchor Cob Castro, Jesus Chong, Mauricio Pastrana and Jake Matlala…of which against those seven he lost to three of. While that is good opposition…it isn’t stellar and certainly a lot better matches could have been made compared to fights against the likes of Leon Salazar, Joshua Camacho, Marcario Santos, or Kwang Kim.
The same can be pointed out in the record of Gonzalez and it can be pointed out in the record of Gatti. Sorry, but I just feel that a fighter should not only be truly special, but he should also prove it consistently in the ring. I just feel that there are many, many other fighters who are more worthy than any of the three of the debate to be elected to the HOF. As I have said, it most certainly does not mean that Carbajal, or Gonzalez were no good…it does not mean that they were not successful…it just simply points, in my opinion, that they did not do enough, which it wasn’t a case of them not having the opportunity to do better because they did have the opportunity but chose not to take advantage.
re
>>>Well when did they have this opportunity and not take advantage of it?<<<
During they're fighting years...mostly after Carbajal and Gonzalez had won a title.
>>>also I disagree that Carbajals opposition was poor...I have 90% of his fights and I dont see how you can call his opposition weak... <<<
I never said that it was poor...Jesus...I stated that it was the weakest of three being debated, which actual evidence of they're careers point out, but it doesn't mean that it was always poor opposition...nor did I say that it was poor!
>>>like I said theres not much in it but Carbajal boxed steadily in world class for 90% of his career... I never seen him in with someone who couldnt fight...<<<
I have a big percentage of his fights as well and being that you do then you have seen, as I have, Carbajal often struggle...well not really struggle, but often fight a very, very lack-luster fight against some of the lesser opposition that he faced, but I have seen him fight some opponents that simply could not fight and should not have been anywhere near a ring with Carbajal, which happened both very early in his career against the likes of Eduardo Nunez, Jose Diaz and several others…also toward the middle of his career against the likes of Abner Barajas and a rematch with Jose Diaz and then toward the end of his career against the likes of Mauro Diaz, Tomas Cordoba and Oscar Calzada…not all of those bouts were televised, but none of those guys could fight and to be honest…there were around 10 others that he faced in his career that simply had no business being in the ring with Carbajal.
I’m not trying to degrade Carbajal…I’m just stating the honest FACTS of the issue…hell Carbajal was one of my favorite fighters to watch during the early 90s and his KO over Robinson Cuesta was a favorite of mine…among others he scored, but when it comes down to actual, honest facts…he simply did not accomplish a lot…nor did the other two in the debate and they should not be in the HOF in my opinion…not as quick as they were elected…nor should Gatti be, but he will be…probably first ballot like Carbajal and Gonzalez.
During they're fighting years...mostly after Carbajal and Gonzalez had won a title.
>>>also I disagree that Carbajals opposition was poor...I have 90% of his fights and I dont see how you can call his opposition weak... <<<
I never said that it was poor...Jesus...I stated that it was the weakest of three being debated, which actual evidence of they're careers point out, but it doesn't mean that it was always poor opposition...nor did I say that it was poor!
>>>like I said theres not much in it but Carbajal boxed steadily in world class for 90% of his career... I never seen him in with someone who couldnt fight...<<<
I have a big percentage of his fights as well and being that you do then you have seen, as I have, Carbajal often struggle...well not really struggle, but often fight a very, very lack-luster fight against some of the lesser opposition that he faced, but I have seen him fight some opponents that simply could not fight and should not have been anywhere near a ring with Carbajal, which happened both very early in his career against the likes of Eduardo Nunez, Jose Diaz and several others…also toward the middle of his career against the likes of Abner Barajas and a rematch with Jose Diaz and then toward the end of his career against the likes of Mauro Diaz, Tomas Cordoba and Oscar Calzada…not all of those bouts were televised, but none of those guys could fight and to be honest…there were around 10 others that he faced in his career that simply had no business being in the ring with Carbajal.
I’m not trying to degrade Carbajal…I’m just stating the honest FACTS of the issue…hell Carbajal was one of my favorite fighters to watch during the early 90s and his KO over Robinson Cuesta was a favorite of mine…among others he scored, but when it comes down to actual, honest facts…he simply did not accomplish a lot…nor did the other two in the debate and they should not be in the HOF in my opinion…not as quick as they were elected…nor should Gatti be, but he will be…probably first ballot like Carbajal and Gonzalez.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
Re: re
barry the “FACT man” is right on top of this debate. Please do keep in mind that the names of his opponents are FACTS, but your opinion of the quality of these opponents and how he performed against them is simply your opinion. I do tend to agree with the opinions stated, but they are opinions and not FACTS.barry wrote:I’m not trying to degrade Carbajal…I’m just stating the honest FACTS of the issue
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vagabundo55
- Heavyweight
I guess it is called the Hall of Fame though, not the Hall of Skill, I think both Carbajal and Gonzales were much better fighters than Gatti p4p but, as i've mentioned I wouldn't mind at all if Gatti got in and I do believe he will. But Gatti is not an all time great and most other jr. welterweights/welterweights and even some lightweights in the hall of fame would give Gatti a beating. I suppose he does deserve recognition for giving his 110% though.
Re: re
Fact is Barry what you keep saying is facts is just your opinion, its just your opinion that Gattis opposition was better than Carbajals and Gonzarlezs... just as its my opinion that if anything Crabajal and Gonzarlez fought the better opposition... theres quite a few fighters that Gatti had no buisness being in the ring with as he was so much heavier than them, remember the Gamache fight... and I say this as a hardened Gatti fan... at the end of the day we both agree that all three are entitled to their hall of fame place.... as for Carbajal not accomplishing much during his career he was in more world title fights than Gatti and as I said earlier brought a hell of a lot of recognition to the lighter guys at a time when most people in America would rather clean their toilet than watch a Light Flyweight title fight... and for me that alone is a hell of an accomplishment.... as he said himself, Carbajal was an 'Aztec WARRIOR!!!'......barry wrote:>>>Well when did they have this opportunity and not take advantage of it?<<<
During they're fighting years...mostly after Carbajal and Gonzalez had won a title.
>>>also I disagree that Carbajals opposition was poor...I have 90% of his fights and I dont see how you can call his opposition weak... <<<
I never said that it was poor...Jesus...I stated that it was the weakest of three being debated, which actual evidence of they're careers point out, but it doesn't mean that it was always poor opposition...nor did I say that it was poor!
>>>like I said theres not much in it but Carbajal boxed steadily in world class for 90% of his career... I never seen him in with someone who couldnt fight...<<<
I have a big percentage of his fights as well and being that you do then you have seen, as I have, Carbajal often struggle...well not really struggle, but often fight a very, very lack-luster fight against some of the lesser opposition that he faced, but I have seen him fight some opponents that simply could not fight and should not have been anywhere near a ring with Carbajal, which happened both very early in his career against the likes of Eduardo Nunez, Jose Diaz and several others…also toward the middle of his career against the likes of Abner Barajas and a rematch with Jose Diaz and then toward the end of his career against the likes of Mauro Diaz, Tomas Cordoba and Oscar Calzada…not all of those bouts were televised, but none of those guys could fight and to be honest…there were around 10 others that he faced in his career that simply had no business being in the ring with Carbajal.
I’m not trying to degrade Carbajal…I’m just stating the honest FACTS of the issue…hell Carbajal was one of my favorite fighters to watch during the early 90s and his KO over Robinson Cuesta was a favorite of mine…among others he scored, but when it comes down to actual, honest facts…he simply did not accomplish a lot…nor did the other two in the debate and they should not be in the HOF in my opinion…not as quick as they were elected…nor should Gatti be, but he will be…probably first ballot like Carbajal and Gonzalez.
re
>>>Fact is Barry what you keep saying is facts is just your opinion, its just your opinion that Gattis opposition was better than Carbajals and Gonzarlezs.<<<
I have a little opinion in it, but it is backed very solidly by actual FACTS of the issue...which some of you consistenly dodge.
The numbers that I presented are not opinions...they are cold-hard facts...such as the fact that Gatti's opponents not only have a higher winning percentage than either Carbajal and Gonzalez, but they also won more fights...around 100 to 300 more than Gonzalez' opponents an close to 600 more than Carbajals and the equalling factor is this...they all had pretty much the same amount of fights! Now if Gatti had had 20, or 30 more fights than the other two then it would be expected that his opponents would have higher totals, but that is not the case...and that is cold hard FACT...not opinion!
Also, cold hard FACT...Gatti fought more world title holders than each Carbajal, or Gonzalez...I don't recall the numbers, but they are in the last thread from about a week, or two ago, so they are there and that is not opinion...it's FACT...Gatti fought more world title holders. FACT...Gatti won titles at two different weight classes and a top ranked contender in four different division, while Carbajal and Gonzalez won titles in one and they stayed in that one division that was spearated by two other division and seven pounds. FACT...Carbajal and Gonzalez had more title fights than Gatti. Now if you have any other FACTS to counter then I would gladly like to hear it, but as the FACTS show...my opinion is based more on FACT compared to what you guys are basing your opinion on, which seems to be the FACT that Carbajal and Gonzalez fought more title fights...well Gatti fought more title holders...plus the other FACTS of the issue in favor of Gatti!
Now me saying that Gatti fought better competition is backed by FACTS, no matter how you look at it, I have based it very, very solidly on truth, while what you guys have been stating is just opinion based on opinion
And also, for the record, since you guys seem to mention this a lot...if you are going to give Carbajal extra credit for bringing attention to the lighter weights then you have to give Gatti the same kind of extra credit for bringing in millions of fans and attention to boxing in general that would not be there if it were not for Gatti. Gatti has done a lot more to popularize boxing than Carbajal and Gonzalez combined...and as the FACTS of the issue clearly point out...it sure as hell seems that he was more successful...now in Neverland that may be different, but in reality the FACTS do not lie, nor are they opinion!
I have a little opinion in it, but it is backed very solidly by actual FACTS of the issue...which some of you consistenly dodge.
The numbers that I presented are not opinions...they are cold-hard facts...such as the fact that Gatti's opponents not only have a higher winning percentage than either Carbajal and Gonzalez, but they also won more fights...around 100 to 300 more than Gonzalez' opponents an close to 600 more than Carbajals and the equalling factor is this...they all had pretty much the same amount of fights! Now if Gatti had had 20, or 30 more fights than the other two then it would be expected that his opponents would have higher totals, but that is not the case...and that is cold hard FACT...not opinion!
Also, cold hard FACT...Gatti fought more world title holders than each Carbajal, or Gonzalez...I don't recall the numbers, but they are in the last thread from about a week, or two ago, so they are there and that is not opinion...it's FACT...Gatti fought more world title holders. FACT...Gatti won titles at two different weight classes and a top ranked contender in four different division, while Carbajal and Gonzalez won titles in one and they stayed in that one division that was spearated by two other division and seven pounds. FACT...Carbajal and Gonzalez had more title fights than Gatti. Now if you have any other FACTS to counter then I would gladly like to hear it, but as the FACTS show...my opinion is based more on FACT compared to what you guys are basing your opinion on, which seems to be the FACT that Carbajal and Gonzalez fought more title fights...well Gatti fought more title holders...plus the other FACTS of the issue in favor of Gatti!
Now me saying that Gatti fought better competition is backed by FACTS, no matter how you look at it, I have based it very, very solidly on truth, while what you guys have been stating is just opinion based on opinion
And also, for the record, since you guys seem to mention this a lot...if you are going to give Carbajal extra credit for bringing attention to the lighter weights then you have to give Gatti the same kind of extra credit for bringing in millions of fans and attention to boxing in general that would not be there if it were not for Gatti. Gatti has done a lot more to popularize boxing than Carbajal and Gonzalez combined...and as the FACTS of the issue clearly point out...it sure as hell seems that he was more successful...now in Neverland that may be different, but in reality the FACTS do not lie, nor are they opinion!
Last edited by barry on 26 Jul 2006, 01:07, edited 1 time in total.