Cruiserweight Golden Era fighters at HW prove that talking about the need for SHW or Bridgerweight categories is nonsens

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Anecdotally looking at ring mag top 10 hw

Fuy had his toughest fights with wallin, wilder and Cunningham . Wilder and Cunningham are light

Joshua lost to usyk

Whyte was knocked out by povetkin
Ortiz was knocked out twice by wilder

Rivas, hunter, wilder, usyk are all lighter hw fighters

Joyce, parker and ruiz round out the 10

[Enlightened-One]

Anecdotally looking at ring mag top 10 hw

Fuy had his toughest fights with wallin, wilder and Cunningham . Wilder and Cunningham are light

Joshua lost to usyk

Whyte was knocked out by povetkin
Ortiz was knocked out twice by wilder

Rivas, hunter, wilder, usyk are all lighter hw fighters

Joyce, parker and ruiz round out the 10

• There’s a fourteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a WBO world heavyweight title fight, Sultan Ibragimov, weighing less than 225lbs.

• There’s a sixteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a IBF world heavyweight title fight, Chris Byrd, weighing less than 225lbs.

• Oleksandr Usyk is the only fighter to have ever won the WBA’s super world heavyweight title weighing less than 225lbs, which accounts for all 18 title bouts spanning more than a decade.

• If we specifically analyse the “regular” WBA world heavyweight title lineage (through to the current champion, Trevor Bryan), then David Haye is the only fighter within the last 18½ years to have won a title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

• Another way of looking at the WBA title situation, is that there have been combined total of 43 WBA “super” and “regular” world heavyweight title fights within the last 18½ years. And only four of those title bouts, which equates to 9%, were won by fighters officially weighing less than 225lbs (i.e. David Haye and Oleksandr Usyk).

• Deontay Wilder is the only fighter within the last 25½ years to have won a WBC world heavyweight title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

[Enlightened-One]

When we actually have a fight between a small heavyweight against a large heavyweight, the large heavyweight probably wins less than 51% of the time.

So in other words, you're claiming that "a good little 'un beats a good big 'un?"

That's a bold opinion to have, especially when it's not reflected by the heavyweight champion lineage.

For instance:

• There’s a fourteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a WBO world heavyweight title fight, Sultan Ibragimov, weighing less than 225lbs.

• There’s a sixteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a IBF world heavyweight title fight, Chris Byrd, weighing less than 225lbs.

• Oleksandr Usyk is the only fighter to have ever won the WBA’s super world heavyweight title weighing less than 225lbs, which accounts for all 18 title bouts spanning more than a decade.

• If we specifically analyse the “regular” WBA world heavyweight title lineage (through to the current champion, Trevor Bryan), then David Haye is the only fighter within the last 18½ years to have won a title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

• Another way of looking at the WBA title situation, is that there have been combined total of 43 WBA “super” and “regular” world heavyweight title fights within the last 18½ years. And only four of those title bouts, which equates to 9%, were won by fighters officially weighing less than 225lbs (i.e. David Haye and Oleksandr Usyk).

• Deontay Wilder is the only fighter within the last 25½ years to have won a WBC world heavyweight title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

[Tevfik1907]

Former super welterweight Canelo beating a Light heavyweight champ also proves that, its probably harder than former Cruiserweight Usyk beating a giant HW Joshua.

Otto Wallin also nearly TKOed Fury via doctor stoppage and Wallin is not even top 5 in heavyweights, perhaps top 10 HW at best or not.

Weight classes there for a reason no doubt but unless there's a gigantic difference its not as important as skill.

In MMA size and weight matters more than boxing because there's wrestling and grappling in MMA.

In a pure striking fight like boxing, its not as big advantage as its in MMA.

[Enlightened-One]

Former super welterweight Canelo beating a Light heavyweight champ also proves that, its probably harder than former Cruiserweight Usyk beating a giant HW Joshua.

Otto Wallin also nearly TKOed Fury via doctor stoppage and Wallin is not even top 5 in heavyweights, perhaps top 10 HW at best or not.

Weight classes there for a reason no doubt but unless there's a gigantic difference its not as important as skill.

In MMA size and weight matters more than boxing because there's wrestling and grappling in MMA.

In a pure striking fight like boxing, its not as big advantage as its in MMA.

Otto Wallin is a big guy. He's weighed around the 240lbs mark for his last two outings. A similar weight for the Fury bout.

And whilst size clearly isn't the be-all-and-end-all, it's an undeniable fact that only two fighters within the last decade has won a legitimate world heavyweight title fight weighing less than 225lbs.

The record books are what they are. They don't care about feelings or opinions.

[Tevfik1907]

Former super welterweight Canelo beating a Light heavyweight champ also proves that, its probably harder than former Cruiserweight Usyk beating a giant HW Joshua.

Otto Wallin also nearly TKOed Fury via doctor stoppage and Wallin is not even top 5 in heavyweights, perhaps top 10 HW at best or not.

Weight classes there for a reason no doubt but unless there's a gigantic difference its not as important as skill.

In MMA size and weight matters more than boxing because there's wrestling and grappling in MMA.

In a pure striking fight like boxing, its not as big advantage as its in MMA.

Otto Wallin is a big guy. He's weighed around the 240lbs mark for his last two outings. A similar weight for the Fury bout.

And whilst size clearly isn't the be-all-and-end-all, it's an undeniable fact that only two fighters within the last decade has won a legitimate world heavyweight title fight weighing less than 225lbs.

The record books are what they are. They don't care about feelings or opinions.

Wallin's arms are short for his height.

Wallin was 236 lbs while Fury was 254 lbs

Almost 20 lbs difference similar to Usyk - AJ difference. That was my point.

And Wallin while he is fatter, his reach isn't longer than Usyk's. They both have 1.98 reach.

And that was Otto Wallin, not even top 5 HW right now, not an elite one, maybe top 10 and that's maybe.

Andy Ruiz Jr. has even shorter reach than both Usyk and Wallin, he is not really big, he is just fat. While his extra fat weight can put more power behind his punches but he still sacrifices speed when he gets fatter. Which means the level of competition really gotten worse today as also its evidence that how badly ''champ'' AJ got outboxed or another ''champ'' Wilder was getting outboxed nearly every opponent he faces except for maybe Stiverne who was also fat not big, Stiverne's reach is shorter than Usyk's and Wallin's too.

And Joseph Parker, who isn't nearly as skilled as Usyk yet he also gave AJ run for his money and he could nearly pull a draw from that close fight. Parker also has short arms, his reach is shorter than even Usyk's. Parker is also just fat not bigger and not nearly as skilled as old heavyweights.

Because boxers don't get nearly as skilled as the previous golden era boxers, they just get fatter.

[Ambling Alp II]

When we actually have a fight between a small heavyweight against a large heavyweight, the large heavyweight probably wins less than 51% of the time.

So in other words, you're claiming that "a good little 'un beats a good big 'un?"

That's a bold opinion to have, especially when it's not reflected by the heavyweight champion lineage.

For instance:

• There’s a fourteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a WBO world heavyweight title fight, Sultan Ibragimov, weighing less than 225lbs.

• There’s a sixteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a IBF world heavyweight title fight, Chris Byrd, weighing less than 225lbs.

• Oleksandr Usyk is the only fighter to have ever won the WBA’s super world heavyweight title weighing less than 225lbs, which accounts for all 18 title bouts spanning more than a decade.

• If we specifically analyse the “regular” WBA world heavyweight title lineage (through to the current champion, Trevor Bryan), then David Haye is the only fighter within the last 18½ years to have won a title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

• Another way of looking at the WBA title situation, is that there have been combined total of 43 WBA “super” and “regular” world heavyweight title fights within the last 18½ years. And only four of those title bouts, which equates to 9%, were won by fighters officially weighing less than 225lbs (i.e. David Haye and Oleksandr Usyk).

• Deontay Wilder is the only fighter within the last 25½ years to have won a WBC world heavyweight title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

Again, people keep bringing up big guys winning the title.
How about when a big a guy actually fights a smaller guy? In real life. Not "Mythical Fights" where the bigger guy almost always wins.
Almost all of the fights were between two big guys. so of course a big guy is going to be the champions.

I'm saying that if the smaller guy is better, he will beat the bigger guy. If not, he won't.

We have to get away from typical lines like "Fighter A has a 20 pound weight advantage"

No, he doesn't have a weigh advantage. The weight itself doesn't do anything.
People act like 240 against 220 is the same as 140 vs 120. It's not. Never has been.

There were big heavyweights 100 years ago. The biggest guy has never been the best at any time. Not now. Not 10 years ago. Not 20. Not 100. Never. Ever.

[Enlightened-One]

Former super welterweight Canelo beating a Light heavyweight champ also proves that, its probably harder than former Cruiserweight Usyk beating a giant HW Joshua.

Otto Wallin also nearly TKOed Fury via doctor stoppage and Wallin is not even top 5 in heavyweights, perhaps top 10 HW at best or not.

Weight classes there for a reason no doubt but unless there's a gigantic difference its not as important as skill.

In MMA size and weight matters more than boxing because there's wrestling and grappling in MMA.

In a pure striking fight like boxing, its not as big advantage as its in MMA.

Otto Wallin is a big guy. He's weighed around the 240lbs mark for his last two outings. A similar weight for the Fury bout.

And whilst size clearly isn't the be-all-and-end-all, it's an undeniable fact that only two fighters within the last decade has won a legitimate world heavyweight title fight weighing less than 225lbs.

The record books are what they are. They don't care about feelings or opinions.

Wallin's arms are short for his height.

Wallin was 236 lbs while Fury was 254 lbs

Almost 20 lbs difference similar to Usyk - AJ difference. That was my point.

And Wallin while he is fatter, his reach isn't longer than Usyk's. They both have 1.98 reach.

And that was Otto Wallin, not even top 5 HW right now, not an elite one, maybe top 10 and that's maybe.

Andy Ruiz Jr. has even shorter reach than both Usyk and Wallin, he is not really big, he is just fat. While his extra fat weight can put more power behind his punches but he still sacrifices speed when he gets fatter. Which means the level of competition really gotten worse today as also its evidence that how badly ''champ'' AJ got outboxed or another ''champ'' Wilder was getting outboxed nearly every opponent he faces except for maybe Stiverne who was also fat not big, Stiverne's reach is shorter than Usyk's and Wallin's too.

And Joseph Parker, who isn't nearly as skilled as Usyk yet he also gave AJ run for his money and he could nearly pull a draw from that close fight. Parker also has short arms, his reach is shorter than even Usyk's. Parker is also just fat not bigger and not nearly as skilled as old heavyweights.

Because boxers don't get nearly as skilled as the previous golden era boxers, they just get fatter.

What’s the topic of the thread and what did I actually write?

[Enlightened-One]

When we actually have a fight between a small heavyweight against a large heavyweight, the large heavyweight probably wins less than 51% of the time.

So in other words, you're claiming that "a good little 'un beats a good big 'un?"

That's a bold opinion to have, especially when it's not reflected by the heavyweight champion lineage.

For instance:

• There’s a fourteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a WBO world heavyweight title fight, Sultan Ibragimov, weighing less than 225lbs.

• There’s a sixteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a IBF world heavyweight title fight, Chris Byrd, weighing less than 225lbs.

• Oleksandr Usyk is the only fighter to have ever won the WBA’s super world heavyweight title weighing less than 225lbs, which accounts for all 18 title bouts spanning more than a decade.

• If we specifically analyse the “regular” WBA world heavyweight title lineage (through to the current champion, Trevor Bryan), then David Haye is the only fighter within the last 18½ years to have won a title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

• Another way of looking at the WBA title situation, is that there have been combined total of 43 WBA “super” and “regular” world heavyweight title fights within the last 18½ years. And only four of those title bouts, which equates to 9%, were won by fighters officially weighing less than 225lbs (i.e. David Haye and Oleksandr Usyk).

• Deontay Wilder is the only fighter within the last 25½ years to have won a WBC world heavyweight title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

Again, people keep bringing up big guys winning the title.
How about when a big a guy actually fights a smaller guy? In real life. Not "Mythical Fights" where the bigger guy almost always wins.
Almost all of the fights were between two big guys. so of course a big guy is going to be the champions.

I'm saying that if the smaller guy is better, he will beat the bigger guy. If not, he won't.

We have to get away from typical lines like "Fighter A has a 20 pound weight advantage"

No, he doesn't have a weigh advantage. The weight itself doesn't do anything.
People act like 240 against 220 is the same as 140 vs 120. It's not. Never has been.

There were big heavyweights 100 years ago. The biggest guy has never been the best at any time. Not now. Not 10 years ago. Not 20. Not 100. Never. Ever.

OK, why is it that only big guys generally fight for the world heavyweight title?

It’s generally because size matters.

Exceptions like Holyfield, Haye and Usyk happen, but generally speaking, bigger heavyweights usually beat smaller foes.

It isn’t an opinion, the world heavyweight title stats I cited clearly illustrate this obvious point.

[Enlightened-One]

• There’s a fourteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a WBO world heavyweight title fight, Sultan Ibragimov, weighing less than 225lbs.

• There’s a sixteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a IBF world heavyweight title fight, Chris Byrd, weighing less than 225lbs.

• Oleksandr Usyk is the only fighter to have ever won the WBA’s super world heavyweight title weighing less than 225lbs, which accounts for all 18 title bouts spanning more than a decade.

• If we specifically analyse the “regular” WBA world heavyweight title lineage (through to the current champion, Trevor Bryan), then David Haye is the only fighter within the last 18½ years to have won a title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

• Another way of looking at the WBA title situation, is that there have been combined total of 43 WBA “super” and “regular” world heavyweight title fights within the last 18½ years. And only four of those title bouts, which equates to 9%, were won by fighters officially weighing less than 225lbs (i.e. David Haye and Oleksandr Usyk).

• Deontay Wilder is the only fighter within the last 25½ years to have won a WBC world heavyweight title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

[squiggy]

The disparities get a lot bigger than just 20 pounds, though.

[Ambling Alp II]

So in other words, you're claiming that "a good little 'un beats a good big 'un?"

That's a bold opinion to have, especially when it's not reflected by the heavyweight champion lineage.

For instance:

• There’s a fourteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a WBO world heavyweight title fight, Sultan Ibragimov, weighing less than 225lbs.

• There’s a sixteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a IBF world heavyweight title fight, Chris Byrd, weighing less than 225lbs.

• Oleksandr Usyk is the only fighter to have ever won the WBA’s super world heavyweight title weighing less than 225lbs, which accounts for all 18 title bouts spanning more than a decade.

• If we specifically analyse the “regular” WBA world heavyweight title lineage (through to the current champion, Trevor Bryan), then David Haye is the only fighter within the last 18½ years to have won a title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

• Another way of looking at the WBA title situation, is that there have been combined total of 43 WBA “super” and “regular” world heavyweight title fights within the last 18½ years. And only four of those title bouts, which equates to 9%, were won by fighters officially weighing less than 225lbs (i.e. David Haye and Oleksandr Usyk).

• Deontay Wilder is the only fighter within the last 25½ years to have won a WBC world heavyweight title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

Again, people keep bringing up big guys winning the title.
How about when a big a guy actually fights a smaller guy? In real life. Not "Mythical Fights" where the bigger guy almost always wins.
Almost all of the fights were between two big guys. so of course a big guy is going to be the champions.

I'm saying that if the smaller guy is better, he will beat the bigger guy. If not, he won't.

We have to get away from typical lines like "Fighter A has a 20 pound weight advantage"

No, he doesn't have a weigh advantage. The weight itself doesn't do anything.
People act like 240 against 220 is the same as 140 vs 120. It's not. Never has been.

There were big heavyweights 100 years ago. The biggest guy has never been the best at any time. Not now. Not 10 years ago. Not 20. Not 100. Never. Ever.

OK, why is it that only big guys generally fight for the world heavyweight title?

It’s generally because size matters.

Exceptions like Holyfield, Haye and Usyk happen, but generally speaking, bigger heavyweights usually beat smaller foes.

It isn’t an opinion, the world heavyweight title stats I cited clearly illustrate this obvious point.

"but generally speaking, bigger heavyweights usually beat smaller foes".
No they don't. and that is my point. Go back and look. Find fights where a bigger heavyweight takes on a smaller one. You will be surprised how often the smaller guy won.

Go way back in history. Looks what happens when a bigger heavyweight took on a much smaller one in a significant fight.
The bigger guy only wins about half the time.

The trend was to go big. Guys have put on weight unnecessarily. There simply aren't very many smaller heavyweights.
But look at what happens when a smaller guy actually fights a bigger guy.

At a certain point, size doesn't matter.

[Enlightened-One]

Exceptions like Holyfield, Haye and Usyk happen, but generally speaking, bigger heavyweights usually beat smaller foes.

It isn’t an opinion, the world heavyweight title stats I cited clearly illustrate this obvious point.

"but generally speaking, bigger heavyweights usually beat smaller foes".
No they don't. and that is my point. Go back and look. Find fights where a bigger heavyweight takes on a smaller one. You will be surprised how often the smaller guy won.

Go way back in history. Looks what happens when a bigger heavyweight took on a much smaller one in a significant fight.
The bigger guy only wins about half the time.

Here is an extract of a post I submitted to the forum on the 29th September 2020 (the stats haven't changed much since then):

The following list represents the weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years:

• WBA = 50 title fights; 3 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBC = 38 title fights; 4 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• IBF = 40 title fights; 5 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBO = 30 title fights; 1 winner weighing less than 220lbs

Here are the mathematical average weights for the winners/champions of all those title fights (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

And finally, don’t you agree that there are exceptions to almost every aspect of life, but they never undermine the general rule (otherwise they wouldn’t be known as exceptions)?

If these stats don't persuade you, then you're refusing to accept the cold hard truths of reality!

[gilgamesh]

And what has my point been all along when this subject comes up?

Thank you Usyk for proving me correct.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

For your stat to be meaningful you need to:

Find out how many times a smaller hw fought in those fights

Their success percentage

Adjust your max weight to 235 since a 225 division would include fighters who typically weigh 235 or less without the need to weight drain

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Average means nothing
Raw data means nothing
Adjust your data sets

I assumed you were a programmer based on your posting now im not sure

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

If you want to get granular:

Aggregate rounds won for smaller guys vs their bigger challenger counterparts

Then youd have a meaningful statistical analysis of whether bigger hw are more successful than smaller

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Sorry for multiple posts

In other words you need to compare challengers against challengers to see if weight is the driving factor statistically

Ie

Ray austin, siolis tony thompson vs

Chambers, chagaev, etc

That is your comparison

[Enlightened-One]

Sorry for multiple posts

In other words you need to compare challengers against challengers to see if weight is the driving factor statistically

Ie

Ray austin, siolis tony thompson vs

Chambers, chagaev, etc

That is your comparison

Here's a novel idea... instead of criticising, barking orders and portraying yourself as having Stephen Hawking-like intellect, why don't you do it yoursef?

If I performed that analysis, you'll only end up asking me to change the scope of my stats if the figures don't reflect your preferred narrative.

So if you do it yourself, at least you won't be able to blame anyone else if the outcome of your research fails to justify your beliefs.

For the record, the stats I've already provided cannot possibly be undermined, because they are accurate!

[Enlightened-One]

Average means nothing
Raw data means nothing

They're meaningful barometers to educated people that have been taught what they mean!

[Enlightened-One]

If you want to get granular:

Aggregate rounds won for smaller guys vs their bigger challenger counterparts

Then youd have a meaningful statistical analysis of whether bigger hw are more successful than smaller

Do you not consider winning world heavyweight title fights as being "successful"?

The stats already prove that it's very rare for small heavyweights to win world title fights.

You've seen the numbers and you can't refute them.

Moving the goalposts won't undermine the rather simple fact that it's very rare for heavyweight fighters weighing in the region of 220lbs or less to win world titles.

Do you not believe this to be the case? Have you not seen the numbers?

[Enlightened-One]

• There’s a fourteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a WBO world heavyweight title fight, Sultan Ibragimov, weighing less than 225lbs.

• There’s a sixteen-year gap between Oleksandr Usyk’s victory over AJ and the most recent fighter to win a IBF world heavyweight title fight, Chris Byrd, weighing less than 225lbs.

• Oleksandr Usyk is the only fighter to have ever won the WBA’s super world heavyweight title weighing less than 225lbs, which accounts for all 18 title bouts spanning more than a decade.

• If we specifically analyse the “regular” WBA world heavyweight title lineage (through to the current champion, Trevor Bryan), then David Haye is the only fighter within the last 18½ years to have won a title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

• Another way of looking at the WBA title situation, is that there have been combined total of 43 WBA “super” and “regular” world heavyweight title fights within the last 18½ years. And only four of those title bouts, which equates to 9%, were won by fighters officially weighing less than 225lbs (i.e. David Haye and Oleksandr Usyk).

• Deontay Wilder is the only fighter within the last 25½ years to have won a WBC world heavyweight title fight officially weighing less than 225lbs.

[gregregegg]

Anecdotally looking at ring mag top 10 hw

Fuy had his toughest fights with wallin, wilder and Cunningham . Wilder and Cunningham are light

Joshua lost to usyk

Whyte was knocked out by povetkin
Ortiz was knocked out twice by wilder

Rivas, hunter, wilder, usyk are all lighter hw fighters

Joyce, parker and ruiz round out the 10

Rivas was an inshape 240 vs whyte. he is short, but at that time he wasnt really a lighter heavyweight.

But that point aside this post has shown me how poor the rings rankings are right now. i use to use to agree with them. but rivas, ortiz and hunter above joyce, get fuked with that trash. i wouldent even have ruiz above him, but i can see the argument, that one punch behind the ear will keep ruiz ranked for a very long time...

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Someone smarter than you isnt stephen hawking dude. Dont flatter yourself.

You arent proving your hypothesis and here is why:

The majority of defenses were won by wlad klitschko a large man. He beat large fighters and small fighters. Your "great stats" prove he was great at title defenses, something we all know.

It is your hypothesis so you prove it and not with bush league nonsense you spew. Actual analysis.


Until then yeah i will call out nonsense

[Enlightened-One]

Someone smarter than you isnt stephen hawking dude. Dont flatter yourself.

You arent proving your hypothesis and here is why:

The majority of defenses were won by wlad klitschko a large man. He beat large fighters and small fighters. Your "great stats" prove he was great at title defenses, something we all know.

It is your hypothesis so you prove it and not with bush league nonsense you spew. Actual analysis.


Until then yeah i will call out nonsense

You were demanding that I perform all the leg work by performing extensive research that adheres to your specific criteria, whilst also delivering insults in a condescending manner.

If you were so intellectual, you would have done the research yourself, before you formulated an opinion, and then provided it to the forum.

But you haven’t done that, have you?

You’re assuming I’m wrong based on very little information whatsoever, despite all the evidence I’ve cited that supports my argument.