Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Sep 2021, 15:44
This how one "expert" had it three years ago:
1. Evander Holyfield
2. Carlos De Leon
3. David Haye
4. Oleksandr Usyk
5. Marco Huck
6. Jean-Marc Mormeck
7. Juan Carlos Gomez
8. Vassiliy Jirov
9. Dwight Muhammad Qawi
10. James Toney
No Briedis or Gassiev.
Does this ring a bell?
What's the point of bringing back the argument of the user, which was overturned by the same user later?
Is this a way to run away from the question?
Not running away at all. just pointing out that you too had Jirov higher than Biredis and Gassiev. Then you later dramatically changed your list, for no apparent reason.
It's not like either did anything in the intervening three years. I think you changed it when you realized that it made Usyk look better if he had wins over someone else in the top 10.
All of sudden Bredis goes from not being in your top 10 to being #3? Gassiev goes from not being in your top 10 to being #5? come on.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑28 Sep 2021, 18:59
look at what briedis and gassiev accomplished, and just watch in the ring, clearly they have strong arguments for being rated higher than jirov . jirov also then failed to do anything at hw which would suggest his superiority , in fact briedis ktfoing charr is better than any hw win vassily had
what were jirov's 3 best wins and where was unificiation etc? does it match, say, gassiev beating lebedev, dorticos, and wlodarczyk, all multi time title holders who reached the top 5, and being unified champion? is anyone jizzing over dale brown, julian letterlough, alex gonzales, etc?
jirov was a good fighter for sure, but i dont see how toney beating him is superior to usyk 12-0 gassiev for example, and usyk had many good cw wins, not just one like toney, who never beat any top 10 fighter aside from jirov and didnt make a single defence
anyone arguing toney's career at cruiser > usyk's is having a laugh
Nothing that Briedis and Gassive did in the ring impresses me. They won some WBS paper titles. They beat some guys with pretty records. Don't really care.
I don't think Jirov has a lot of impressive wins either.
However, look at Jirov's defining fight. He fought a great against Toney. Probably the 2nd best cruiserweight fight ever. I will take that over any performance of Gassiev or Breidsis.
What any of these guys did at heavyweight is irrelevant. We are rating them at cruiserweight.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑28 Sep 2021, 18:59
look at what briedis and gassiev accomplished, and just watch in the ring, clearly they have strong arguments for being rated higher than jirov . jirov also then failed to do anything at hw which would suggest his superiority , in fact briedis ktfoing charr is better than any hw win vassily had
what were jirov's 3 best wins and where was unificiation etc? does it match, say, gassiev beating lebedev, dorticos, and wlodarczyk, all multi time title holders who reached the top 5, and being unified champion? is anyone jizzing over dale brown, julian letterlough, alex gonzales, etc?
jirov was a good fighter for sure, but i dont see how toney beating him is superior to usyk 12-0 gassiev for example, and usyk had many good cw wins, not just one like toney, who never beat any top 10 fighter aside from jirov and didnt make a single defence
anyone arguing toney's career at cruiser > usyk's is having a laugh
Nothing that Briedis and Gassive did in the ring impresses me. They won some WBS paper titles. They beat some guys with pretty records. Don't really care.
I don't think Jirov has a lot of impressive wins either.
However, look at Jirov's defining fight. He fought a great against Toney. Probably the 2nd best cruiserweight fight ever. I will take that over any performance of Gassiev or Breidsis.
What any of these guys did at heavyweight is irrelevant. We are rating them at cruiserweight.
Having seen each fight, both are better than Jirov.
i don't find it easy with Jirov, he seems to get a lot of credit just for being a participant in an amazing fight, looking at him just slobbing forward and throwing 150 garbage shots per round whilst being punched repeatedly in the face doesn't impress me that much. I'm exaggerating slightly but, you know. I don't think of any other fight when i think of him, maybe that's my problem.
similarly Briedis's pinnacle moment seems to be winning maybe 4 rounds against Usyk.
colour me very slightly more impressed by the latter.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Sep 2021, 15:44
This how one "expert" had it three years ago:
1. Evander Holyfield
2. Carlos De Leon
3. David Haye
4. Oleksandr Usyk
5. Marco Huck
6. Jean-Marc Mormeck
7. Juan Carlos Gomez
8. Vassiliy Jirov
9. Dwight Muhammad Qawi
10. James Toney
No Briedis or Gassiev.
Does this ring a bell?
What's the point of bringing back the argument of the user, which was overturned by the same user later?
Is this a way to run away from the question?
Not running away at all. just pointing out that you too had Jirov higher than Biredis and Gassiev. Then you later dramatically changed your list, for no apparent reason.
It's not like either did anything in the intervening three years. I think you changed it when you realized that it made Usyk look better if he had wins over someone else in the top 10.
All of sudden Bredis goes from not being in your top 10 to being #3? Gassiev goes from not being in your top 10 to being #5? come on.
Briedis won Glowacki and Dorticos after the initial post, that's a huge reason for the chance. Gassiev did nothing, but he had initially been underrated by myself, which I admitted, so there's actually no apparent reason for your b!tching here other than me changing my opinion. Well, there's actually a reason for your continuation of b!tching around. You have no backup for your biased opinion, so you try to find "holes" in arguments of the others. Dumbling alp exposed.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑28 Sep 2021, 18:59
look at what briedis and gassiev accomplished, and just watch in the ring, clearly they have strong arguments for being rated higher than jirov . jirov also then failed to do anything at hw which would suggest his superiority , in fact briedis ktfoing charr is better than any hw win vassily had
what were jirov's 3 best wins and where was unificiation etc? does it match, say, gassiev beating lebedev, dorticos, and wlodarczyk, all multi time title holders who reached the top 5, and being unified champion? is anyone jizzing over dale brown, julian letterlough, alex gonzales, etc?
jirov was a good fighter for sure, but i dont see how toney beating him is superior to usyk 12-0 gassiev for example, and usyk had many good cw wins, not just one like toney, who never beat any top 10 fighter aside from jirov and didnt make a single defence
anyone arguing toney's career at cruiser > usyk's is having a laugh
Nothing that Briedis and Gassive did in the ring impresses me. They won some WBS paper titles. They beat some guys with pretty records. Don't really care.
I don't think Jirov has a lot of impressive wins either.
However, look at Jirov's defining fight. He fought a great against Toney. Probably the 2nd best cruiserweight fight ever. I will take that over any performance of Gassiev or Breidsis.
What any of these guys did at heavyweight is irrelevant. We are rating them at cruiserweight.
jirov rates above them merely for having fought toney, a guy who didnt face any other top 10 cruiser of his time, wow. and suddenly youre on about the entertainment factor
hey those amazing '10 round fighters' you brought up fought toney as well, maybe they're bettter than all usyk's opponents too lol, you were saying his resume was lacking in them!
funny to see so little talk about actual quality of wins and ability, alp is turning into a noob
What's the point of bringing back the argument of the user, which was overturned by the same user later?
Is this a way to run away from the question?
Not running away at all. just pointing out that you too had Jirov higher than Biredis and Gassiev. Then you later dramatically changed your list, for no apparent reason.
It's not like either did anything in the intervening three years. I think you changed it when you realized that it made Usyk look better if he had wins over someone else in the top 10.
All of sudden Bredis goes from not being in your top 10 to being #3? Gassiev goes from not being in your top 10 to being #5? come on.
Briedis won Glowacki and Dorticos after the initial post, that's a huge reason for the chance. Gassiev did nothing, but he had initially been underrated by myself, which I admitted, so there's actually no apparent reason for your b!tching here other than me changing my opinion. Well, there's actually a reason for your continuation of b!tching around. You have no backup for your biased opinion, so you try to find "holes" in arguments of the others. Dumbling alp exposed.
Please don't call me dumpling. That makes me so sad. Quite the zinger.
You didn't even have Briedis in your top 10. Those wins make him number 3? Come on.
Gassiev became massively "underrated".
All very convenient for your case to have Usyk so high.
Now who is that looks like they were exposed?
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑29 Sep 2021, 15:39
Watch Toney-Jirov.
Then watch Briedis or Gassiev against Usyk.
i.e. their most important fights.
Yeah, just crazy talk to have Jirov higher Briedis and Gassiev.
lol, how does the fit your argument? briedis showed a lot more dimensions vs usyk than jirov ever showed for example. jirov plodding forward eating punches is supposed to put him to shame?
tell us which of jirov's cruiser wins are so good, funny how you keep leaving that out. no one ever said it's crazy to have jirov higher than those guys, but do tell what makes it so clear.......a fight he widely lost, against someone who didnt ever beat any other top 10 cruiser, is his trump card? you have been reaching hard this whole thread
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑29 Sep 2021, 10:55
Not running away at all. just pointing out that you too had Jirov higher than Biredis and Gassiev. Then you later dramatically changed your list, for no apparent reason.
It's not like either did anything in the intervening three years. I think you changed it when you realized that it made Usyk look better if he had wins over someone else in the top 10.
All of sudden Bredis goes from not being in your top 10 to being #3? Gassiev goes from not being in your top 10 to being #5? come on.
Briedis won Glowacki and Dorticos after the initial post, that's a huge reason for the chance. Gassiev did nothing, but he had initially been underrated by myself, which I admitted, so there's actually no apparent reason for your b!tching here other than me changing my opinion. Well, there's actually a reason for your continuation of b!tching around. You have no backup for your biased opinion, so you try to find "holes" in arguments of the others. Dumbling alp exposed.
Please don't call me dumpling. That makes me so sad. Quite the zinger.
You didn't even have Briedis in your top 10. Those wins make him number 3? Come on.
Gassiev became massively "underrated".
All very convenient for your case to have Usyk so high.
Now who is that looks like they were exposed?
Once you asked to call you like that, now you ask not to. Think thoroughly, please, before you make a choice. As for now you'll still remaing dumbling alp.
Briedis won the WBSS after "not making" to top 10.
You still have never said, why my update is wrong and why Jirov should be higher, except calling a one of his losses exciting. Dumbling circus at its best
whose cruiser career ranks higher, usyk's or toney?
straight up answer bruh
It's impossible to drag straight answers from this clown, because his opinion is utterly biased and he have no rational backup for it. He even knows it himself and keeps b!tching around with groundless blather. It won't be a surprise, if he haven't even watched cruiserweight fights of the recent several years, while he automatically rushes on the modern era.
whose cruiser career ranks higher, usyk's or toney?
straight up answer bruh
I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be. Thought I was giving straight up answers.
Usyk's cruiserweight win after the original post made it a little closer. I think Toney looks better on film. You disagree. Fine. Somebody disagrees with you on the rating of some fighters. So what. Happens all the time. Don't understand the obsession. If Usyk wins a fight at heavyweight next year, are you going to bring this cruiserweight thread up again?
Btw - I don't like Toney at all.
its laughable, alp blathers on so much about guys these days needing to prove themselves more, take tough fights etc..........and yet a guy here clears out the division, literally every fight on the road, beating champ after champ, but james toney is ranked higher because of a fun fight with the only good cruiser he ever faced, and despite never defending his title or beating another top 25 opponent he's the supposedly the one with 'depth' at the weight
ranking toney higher as a cruiser (!!) makes it clear as day that he simply cannot be fair to active fighters
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Sep 2021, 15:12
its laughable, alp blathers on so much about guys these days needing to prove themselves more, take tough fights etc..........and yet a guy here clears out the division, literally every fight on the road, beating champ after champ, but james toney is ranked higher because of a fun fight with the only good cruiser he ever faced, and despite never defending his title or beating another top 25 opponent he's the supposedly the one with 'depth' at the weight
ranking toney higher as a cruiser (!!) makes it clear as day that he simply cannot be fair to active fighters
I wasn't the biggest Usyk fan at HW, but that performance has me thinking he's on the way to ATG status. Great record; GREAT boxer; Huge Ring IQ; tough as nails; fun to watch. Not at Holy's level as a cruiser moving up, but great just the same. If I think about all time CW's, it's Holy; Usyk; then go do some research.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Sep 2021, 15:12
its laughable, alp blathers on so much about guys these days needing to prove themselves more, take tough fights etc..........and yet a guy here clears out the division, literally every fight on the road, beating champ after champ, but james toney is ranked higher because of a fun fight with the only good cruiser he ever faced, and despite never defending his title or beating another top 25 opponent he's the supposedly the one with 'depth' at the weight
ranking toney higher as a cruiser (!!) makes it clear as day that he simply cannot be fair to active fighters
I wasn't the biggest Usyk fan at HW, but that performance has me thinking he's on the way to ATG status. Great record; GREAT boxer; Huge Ring IQ; tough as nails; fun to watch. Not at Holy's level as a cruiser moving up, but great just the same. If I think about all time CW's, it's Holy; Usyk; then go do some research.
Usyk is an obvious ATG. Only different biased alpies can deny it.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Sep 2021, 15:12
its laughable, alp blathers on so much about guys these days needing to prove themselves more, take tough fights etc..........and yet a guy here clears out the division, literally every fight on the road, beating champ after champ, but james toney is ranked higher because of a fun fight with the only good cruiser he ever faced, and despite never defending his title or beating another top 25 opponent he's the supposedly the one with 'depth' at the weight
ranking toney higher as a cruiser (!!) makes it clear as day that he simply cannot be fair to active fighters
I wasn't the biggest Usyk fan at HW, but that performance has me thinking he's on the way to ATG status. Great record; GREAT boxer; Huge Ring IQ; tough as nails; fun to watch. Not at Holy's level as a cruiser moving up, but great just the same. If I think about all time CW's, it's Holy; Usyk; then go do some research.
but but but....toney-jirov was really entertaining!!
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Sep 2021, 15:12
its laughable, alp blathers on so much about guys these days needing to prove themselves more, take tough fights etc..........and yet a guy here clears out the division, literally every fight on the road, beating champ after champ, but james toney is ranked higher because of a fun fight with the only good cruiser he ever faced, and despite never defending his title or beating another top 25 opponent he's the supposedly the one with 'depth' at the weight
ranking toney higher as a cruiser (!!) makes it clear as day that he simply cannot be fair to active fighters
I wasn't the biggest Usyk fan at HW, but that performance has me thinking he's on the way to ATG status. Great record; GREAT boxer; Huge Ring IQ; tough as nails; fun to watch. Not at Holy's level as a cruiser moving up, but great just the same. If I think about all time CW's, it's Holy; Usyk; then go do some research.
but but but....toney-jirov was really entertaining!!
I don't see how any case can be made for Toney being ahead of Usyk based on accomplishments. Usyk seems to have the better top wins and a number of quality wins while Toney just has Jirov and nothing much else. If your ranking on achievements its got to be Usyk.
Breidis and Gassiev also seemingly have better wins than Jirov. Since losing to Usyk Breidis went on to beat Glowacki and Dorticos. With those wins it seems like it is much harder to make a case for Jirov being ahead of Breidis.
Last edited by Cojimar 1946 on 04 Oct 2021, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑04 Oct 2021, 21:52
I don't see how any case can be made for Toney being ahead of Usyk based on accomplishments. Usyk seems to have the better top wins and a number of quality wins while Toney just has Jirov and nothing much else. If your ranking on achievements its got to be Usyk.
Breidis and Gassiev also seemingkly have better wins than Jirov. Who did Jirov beat that was better than Dorticos or Glowacki?
it's ridiculous, toney only beat one cruiser in the top 20 and never made a title defense. 1 title fight.
usyk cleaned out the division and became undisputed champ, beat 3 reigning champs in the top 5, and nearly all his 8 title fights were vs top 10 opposition. 8 title fights. briedis and gassiev are right there with jirov at minimum.
yet to alp, it's toney with the depth and superior accomplishments
Last edited by margaret thatcher on 04 Oct 2021, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.
