The "Kidney" Punchers

[Caractacus]

deemed an "illegal" punch in most boxing circles.
what fighters are known for either (re-peatedly)accidently punching an opponent in the kidney's
or even intentially going for the kidney's

[Caractacus]

this one nearly caused a riot.

[Contendeh]

I was just reading on Burns v Johnson and Johnson seems to have been pretty adept at targeting the kidneys, though it does not seem illegal in 1908.

Does anyone know when the punch was largely banned?

[oogiebe]

If memory serves, Schmeling took a few tremendous blows to his kidneys vs Louis.

[margaret thatcher]

how would the kidney punchers fare against the body snatchers

and could the winner of that matchup beat the head hunters?

[orbtastic]

I’m reasonably certain that Louis cracked a couple of his vertebra too. Either he was intentionally punching round or Max’s contorting made the punches land way round on his side. You can see him visibly react in any case.

[Caractacus]

-1936-
btW Jack Blackburn had previously trained Charlie Retzlaff.

[Ambling Alp II]

If memory serves, Schmeling took a few tremendous blows to his kidneys vs Louis.

It was usually allowed in the United States but not in Europe at the time.

[HomicideHenry]

Kidney punches if accidental are not illegal. Only when you deliberately punch someone in the back aiming for the kidneys is it illegal.

Back in the bare knuckle era and early gloved era, body punching was primarily the art of pugilism--- so knowing where to hurt someone the most was vital to a boxer's knowledge. Floating rib, liver, solar plexus and kidneys.

The Marquis of Queensbury rules never mentions kidney punches being illegal, but the 12th rule says: "The contest in all other respects to be governed by the revised rules of the London Prize Ring."

So let's look at those revised rules:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Prize_Ring_Rules

No mention of kidney punches. So the rule MUST have been a "modern" creation, and as examples have showed this was still ongoing into the 1930s apparently not as an illegal tactic.

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Rules_of_Boxing

^^^That doesn't answer the question either as to WHEN deliberate kidney punches became illegal. Just a set of rules today.

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/New_ ... Present.29

^^^It seems it was the state of New York as early as 1914 banning kidney punches in their state, but there would be no uniform rules across the board covering all states for many years to come.

So I'm guessing.... The 1980s... Because the association of boxing commissions was formed during that time, so they all kind of were in agreement with each other as far as rules were concerned even if some states were more relaxed than others in terms of matchmaking or weight class definitions.



I do know George Foreman deliberately used kidney punches in the 1980s so I don't know. I guess it's one of those things that are at the discretion of the referee. But I do know once upon a time kidney punches were just as legal as anything else--- the debate is when did it become illegal.

[Caractacus]

I'm pretty sure it was considered a foul (along with the Rabbit punch)
by the time Jack Dempsey fought Gene Tunney IN 1926-27.

[Ambling Alp II]

It certainly was not legal in the mid-1970s when I started watching. Of course some referees enforce things different than others.
Not sure what homicidehenry is talking about as for the establishment of boxing commissions in the 1980s. The WBC, and the WBA was around before that. The National Boxing Association (forerunner of the WBA) was around several decades before that.

[Caractacus]

I had read (somewhere) that the New Jersey Boxing commision had banned both the rabbit punch and kidney punch
just after Luis Firpo knocked out Joe McCann with a rabbit punch in 1922.

[HomicideHenry]

It certainly was not legal in the mid-1970s when I started watching. Of course some referees enforce things different than others.
Not sure what homicidehenry is talking about as for the establishment of boxing commissions in the 1980s. The WBC, and the WBA was around before that. The National Boxing Association (forerunner of the WBA) was around several decades before that.

Talking talking about the ABC, association of boxing commissions. The NBA/WBA/WBC, etc are organizations that only had say over TITLE matches they were sanctioning.

When the NBA was around they still were at the mercy of state athletic commissions, whose rules and regulations varied from state to state.

Mind you when Joe Louis went into the army there was, for example, "Ohio World Champion" (Buddy Knox) and various other state "world" champions. They weren't under the jurisdiction of the NBA. The NBA was a damn brand. Alphabet strap stuff.

It wasn't until much, much later that basically all the states came together in agreement on rules and regulations because the sport was rather disjointed--- in one state you could be saved by the bell in any round, in other states it was only in the last round, in others it was only in the first round, etc.

I would not be surprised if kidney punches and other tactics were not deemed illegal in certain states until recent memory (last thirty years).

Don't know why you brought up organizations, because the only power they have is to rate people on their own ratings system, and to dictate rules and regulations for title matches they are personally sanctioning.

[bobcatbox]

George Chuvalo was an admitted kidney puncher, especially in the clinch, and took pride in the damage he did to Ali.

[Yuzo]

the way sugar ray robinson threw this punch was he turned his fist upside down so that his thumb was pointing down. that, to my thinking anyway, was so the punch does not cuff and can sort of fish hook its way around a guys arm. its a right handed punch.



theres a video from a few years back of stacey mckinley in the gym teaching a guy how to throw this punch in that sugar ray robinson way with the thumb pointing down. thats the candy cane.

[Caractacus]

Did Sugar Ray Robinson turn his thumb down a fraction of a second before the punch impact ?
If so, it sounds a lot Kid McCoy's " Cork-screw" punch if you were to arsk me.

[Caractacus]

[Yuzo]

Did Sugar Ray Robinson turn his thumb down a fraction of a second before the punch impact ?
If so, it sounds a lot Kid McCoy's " Cork-screw" punch if you were to arsk me.

yes and heres a video that demonstrates how this punch is thrown.

[Brute]

I was just reading on Burns v Johnson and Johnson seems to have been pretty adept at targeting the kidneys, though it does not seem illegal in 1908.

Does anyone know when the punch was largely banned?

The rule is not to hit behind the scoring line, meaning what you can see. The " Mexican liver shot" is legal because it is on the
scoring line.

[nobleart1978]

Eusebio Pedroza

[Counter-puncher]

Eusebio Pedroza

ha, good call, in fact I doubt there was a single internal organ Pedrosa didn't viciously target on a regular basis

[Caractacus]

i had read (somewhere) that the kidney punch was outlawed in 1899 by
the NSC (National Sporting Club)Covent Garden , London England
after the British Featherweight championship bout between
Ben Jordan vrs Harry Greenfield.
Jordan KO'd Greenfield with a kidney punch.