Let's not overrate Tyson Fury ...

[HomicideHenry]

people just want him to take on the other top guys, for there to be an undisputed fight and for him to prove in the ring that he's cleaned it out and is defo the king, i don't see why that riles you up so much and most of the people you argue with seem to be saying tht he probably beats usyk, but you continually misrepresent their point

He already definitely is the top of the heavyweight division. 2x heavyweight champion defeating 2-medalists, and there is absolutely no doubt in the minds of anyone with a functioning brain cell that Joshua and Ruiz--- they only other men to hold the title not named Usyk--- would ever beat him.

Usyk is the only question mark, and even at that there are more questions than there are answers surrounding the former cruiserweight champion as a heavyweight. I said it all along, if the Ukrainian was to ever be heavyweight champion the easiest route would be through Joshua--- and that is what happened.

True, I picked Joshua on the basis of the two crappy fights Usyk had--- but I honestly did not think that Joshua would do the absolute stupidest strategy possible to try and out box a man who is much faster and more skilled than he is.

Either Usyk doesn't handle pressure well at heavyweight, or he was playing possum. Both are possible. I guess we will see what happens in the rematch with Joshua--- but one thing is for sure, beating Anthony Joshua is not the same as beating Tyson Fury.

In a perfect world I would like to see Fury do the following: Whyte, Usyk (twice), Joshua and Ruiz. Maybe throw in Hunter or Joyce for stay busy matches. But I don't see that happening.

And really there is no point to do all that. Joshua keeps on eliminating himself, and we all know Snickers isn't really a legitimate threat, and Whyte is clearly a level or two below the best in the division. The only fight that makes any real sense is Usyk.

Fury doesn't need to beat X, Y, and Z because it's self evident that those guys couldn't beat him. Some fights are unnecessary to make in the grand scheme of things.

I wouldn't be surprised if Fury essentially drops the belt and waits for Usyk. Then he can be three time heavyweight champion and retire. And if Joshua ever reclaims the belts he can come out of retirement and go for a fourth heavyweight title run.

Of course that's another hypothetical that probably won't happen after all none of us know the future. All we can deal with is the here and now. Usyk has to successfully defend the title, and Fury has to wait for the Whyte-Wallin winner, and I reckon Fury can get himself amped for either man because ultimately he wants Usyk and has to face one of them in order to do it.

Whyte is at least an entertaining talker so the pre-fight build up would be fun and Wallin would be easier the second time around--- because Fury has demonstrated with McDermott, Chisora and Wilder that he only gets better in returns.

[candyslim]

However I have a feeling that Fury might do what he did against Klitschko and say, "Okay everybody says nobody can outbox Usyk. I'm going to show that I can still box somebody's ears off." Nobody will expect it, neither will Usyk.

I reckon this is how Joshua was thinking. A victim of his own vanity.

If there is one thing Joshua has shown us recently is an ability to recognize his mistakes and adapt in order to rectify them, however I worry that Joshua has sustained permanent psychological damage from his loss to Ruiz.

[Counter-puncher]

The one thing us AJ pickers didn't expect was for AJ to make the schoolboy error of trying to outbox a world class boxer--- we all fully expected for him to throw bombs, etc. He didn't do that. Maybe he will the second time around.

Regardless, even if Joshua beats Usyk in the return fight he's still not beating Tyson Fury. Even if Usyk defeats Joshua again, he's still not the best heavyweight in the world because Joshua is a flawed heavyweight.

For sure, AJ fought the wrong tactical battle, but let's not gloss over that a masterful skilled boxer like Usyk makes you fight his fight. AJ's possibly learnt from that, we can only find out in a rematch and, if AJ's psychological as well as tactical approach is correct, we might learn a bit more about Usyk.

As for your rating system....does getting knocked on your ass 4 times by a very flawed heavyweight provide a higher ranking than completely outboxing a flawed heavyweight?

The perception of the 3rd fight taking place after scuppering the Fury v Joshua fight was that it was pointless, such was the dominance of Fury in the 2nd fight.
As a spectacle, the 3rd fight was amazing, it had everything you'd want to see in a hw title fight and is rightly receiving universal plaudits. However, it was such a cliffhanger not because of the skills on view, but rather the sloppiness and lack of skills. Wilder's dedicated new training regime and tactics resulted in 2 rounds of jabbing to the body before reverting to type, whereas Fury carried on from where he left off in the 2nd fight, bulling forward, throwing clubbing rights, sapping Wilder's strength in clinches with headlocks and leaning on.
Wilder gets bludgeoned to the deck, his spindly legs giving way after a few not so clean punches. Then Fury gets sloppy, decked twice, shows his already well known powers of recovery, and then clubbing, mauling and strength sapping resumes until a completey knackered Wilder is finally flattened.

The knockdowns and the intesity made it special viewing, but when you compare the all round skills on display to the masterful performance of boxing that Usyk put on a couple of weeks prior, he showed what proper boxing's all about. Perhaps a bit boring compared to this weekend's action, but he Usyk certainly enhanced his reputation more than either of Fury or Wilder to the purist. Wilder perhaps showed us something new, that he has the heart to get his ass whupped until he can go on no more, but then so did Jeff Lacy.

I'd certainly have Fury as #1, and, given his studious approach and knowledge of the game, he certainly wouldn't make the same mistakes that AJ made when facing Usyk. I would favour him slightly over Usyk, mainly due to his size and not being scared to hit and get hit back, but wouldn't be surprised if Usyk managed to nick it.
However, Fury's at #1 based on beating a pretty basic boxer in Wilder who had a jab and dynamite right hand, and he struggled more in the 3rd fight than he did in the 2nd fight. His bulldozer approach worked well against Wilder, but might not do so against others, and I cannot but help think that the days of him including the weight loss regime in his training to return to a more stylistic jabbing and moving Fury is a thing of the past

Excellent post

[jamesmcdonnell]

The one thing us AJ pickers didn't expect was for AJ to make the schoolboy error of trying to outbox a world class boxer--- we all fully expected for him to throw bombs, etc. He didn't do that. Maybe he will the second time around.

Regardless, even if Joshua beats Usyk in the return fight he's still not beating Tyson Fury. Even if Usyk defeats Joshua again, he's still not the best heavyweight in the world because Joshua is a flawed heavyweight.

For sure, AJ fought the wrong tactical battle, but let's not gloss over that a masterful skilled boxer like Usyk makes you fight his fight. AJ's possibly learnt from that, we can only find out in a rematch and, if AJ's psychological as well as tactical approach is correct, we might learn a bit more about Usyk.

As for your rating system....does getting knocked on your ass 4 times by a very flawed heavyweight provide a higher ranking than completely outboxing a flawed heavyweight?

The perception of the 3rd fight taking place after scuppering the Fury v Joshua fight was that it was pointless, such was the dominance of Fury in the 2nd fight.
As a spectacle, the 3rd fight was amazing, it had everything you'd want to see in a hw title fight and is rightly receiving universal plaudits. However, it was such a cliffhanger not because of the skills on view, but rather the sloppiness and lack of skills. Wilder's dedicated new training regime and tactics resulted in 2 rounds of jabbing to the body before reverting to type, whereas Fury carried on from where he left off in the 2nd fight, bulling forward, throwing clubbing rights, sapping Wilder's strength in clinches with headlocks and leaning on.
Wilder gets bludgeoned to the deck, his spindly legs giving way after a few not so clean punches. Then Fury gets sloppy, decked twice, shows his already well known powers of recovery, and then clubbing, mauling and strength sapping resumes until a completey knackered Wilder is finally flattened.

The knockdowns and the intesity made it special viewing, but when you compare the all round skills on display to the masterful performance of boxing that Usyk put on a couple of weeks prior, he showed what proper boxing's all about. Perhaps a bit boring compared to this weekend's action, but he Usyk certainly enhanced his reputation more than either of Fury or Wilder to the purist. Wilder perhaps showed us something new, that he has the heart to get his ass whupped until he can go on no more, but then so did Jeff Lacy.

I'd certainly have Fury as #1, and, given his studious approach and knowledge of the game, he certainly wouldn't make the same mistakes that AJ made when facing Usyk. I would favour him slightly over Usyk, mainly due to his size and not being scared to hit and get hit back, but wouldn't be surprised if Usyk managed to nick it.
However, Fury's at #1 based on beating a pretty basic boxer in Wilder who had a jab and dynamite right hand, and he struggled more in the 3rd fight than he did in the 2nd fight. His bulldozer approach worked well against Wilder, but might not do so against others, and I cannot but help think that the days of him including the weight loss regime in his training to return to a more stylistic jabbing and moving Fury is a thing of the past

Excellent post

Yes, I concur.

Let's not confuse an exciting fight with a masterclass. Fury was there to be hit, and it's fortunate that despite people's talk in the past, Wilder's not as devastating a puncher as it seems.

It was a very good performance from Fury, he showed heart, great powers of recovery, at times very good boxing skills, but he was also sloppy in there at times.

I think Fury would do well to try and bumrush Usyk too, I find it hard to see Usyk hurting him unless he landed a big barrage of shots, and Fury slips and slides well enough to make the follow ups miss.

I think if Fury picks and pokes he gives Usyk the opportunity to nick it.

I for one can't wait, I think Fury wins a relatively clear fight but it's definitely a fight I want to see.

If Usyk somehow pulls off a win, it will be an incredible win, a real history maker.

[pound per pound]

how many world class heavyweights has fury faced?

How many men in their prime has Fury faced that fit the definition world class? Zero. He's an untested fraud propped up by Wilder who floored him four times, was cut like a fish vs Wallin, and was down two other times in his career.

Not fooled.

[Bandog]

It DOES mean nothing.

The referee didn't stop it.

Neither did the doctor.

You live on what ifs and should have been's.

Real boxing fans deal in reality.

And for the record there has been a hell of a lot worse cuts than that in the sport of boxing and fights went on and on, especially in the early 20th century.

When someone is the lineal heavyweight champion of the world the title is always on the line, and they are not going to stop fights on a cut especially when the cut individual is still winning every minute of every round.

100+ years ago? You are really reaching. I've not seen a cut that required 40 stitches go on ever, that I can think of. As far as Fury's wins over world class heavys? I'm not sure if there even are any.

[Bandog]

The OP has some valid points. You cannot simultaneously cut down, ridicule, and go on about how skill-less Wilder is, and at the same time say how great Fury is.

[Tony1244]

The OP has some valid points. You cannot simultaneously cut down, ridicule, and go on about how skill-less Wilder is, and at the same time say how great Fury is.

Very true. In history, Fury will go down as a great fighter and Wilder as a great puncher. History has overlooked all the dumb things Ali said in the 1960s and history will overlook all the dumb things Fury and Wilder are saying now. The former emphasizes non boxing stupidity and the later BSs about cheating, but stupid is stupid.

[funso banjo baby]

The OP has some valid points. You cannot simultaneously cut down, ridicule, and go on about how skill-less Wilder is, and at the same time say how great Fury is.

Very true. In history, Fury will go down as a great fighter and Wilder as a great puncher. History has overlooked all the dumb things Ali said in the 1960s and history will overlook all the dumb things Fury and Wilder are saying now. The former emphasizes non boxing stupidity and the later BSs about cheating, but stupid is stupid.

All of Ali's quotes are regularly returned to.
I hardly think he can be put in the same bracket as idiots like wilder and fury in terms of things he's said.

[Tony1244]

The OP has some valid points. You cannot simultaneously cut down, ridicule, and go on about how skill-less Wilder is, and at the same time say how great Fury is.

Very true. In history, Fury will go down as a great fighter and Wilder as a great puncher. History has overlooked all the dumb things Ali said in the 1960s and history will overlook all the dumb things Fury and Wilder are saying now. The former emphasizes non boxing stupidity and the later BSs about cheating, but stupid is stupid.

All of Ali's quotes are regularly returned to.
I hardly think he can be put in the same bracket as idiots like wilder and fury in terms of things he's said.

Uh ha. I am an Ali fan even though it doesn't really sound like it above. I'm a fan of him and his quotes enough to have earned a Muhammad Ali Calendar for Christmas that has one of his great quotes per month.

Quotes such as, "A wise man can always play the fool, but a fool can never play a wiseman." Or something like that. My point, if I have one, are his pro segregation quotes and such have been swept under the rug. Likewise, Wilder will probably be remembered for his great right hand and heart, not his stupid excuses.

[Mexi-Box]

Uh, the dude beat Klitschko who was ranked #1 p4p (it was between him and Chocolatito at the time). Then he beats Wilder while having respectable wins over Chisora, Hammer (who was ranking up some great wins at the time), Cunningham, and Wallin (an undefeated prospect).

He's virtually the undisputed HW champion of the world as he never lost his belts outside of the corrupt organizations taking them from him.

The only overrating I'm seeing is in the debate whether he belongs above or under Usyk. Seems his fans don't think that it's even a debate, which it is.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Ukrainian is pound for pound higher level than Tyson Fury in terms of skills or accomplishments--- the real question is whether the Ukrainian is higher than Tyson Fury at heavyweight.

That answer is no. And it is not debatable. Yes, what Usyk done is impressive but most people were already of the opinion that Joshua couldn't beat Fury anyways, so beating Joshua can only be seen as a good win and nothing more.

[margaret thatcher]

beating joshua and beating wilder are of very comparable quality. josh and wilder have basically been right next to each other in most rankings, switching every now and then, for a few years. they are pretty much the same general level

fury also beat wlad, and had a longer hw career than usyk with more wins, so he's the #1 for now, but not the undisputed king in the way that , say, usyk was when he cleared out cruiser beating numerous champs, unified titlists, and top contenders. or when crawford cleaned out 140. now those guys were truly the lords of the division, accomplished well and above the rest, with all their toughest challengers defeated

in the past 6 years fury has beaten just 1 world class heavyweight. he has more to do to really drive it home that he's the ruler. whyte mandatory (if dw wins this month) and then the usyk-aj 2 winner would be the right path to take to do it. id say he probably wins both of those, but you never know, thats why fights gotta be won in the ring.

fury has not yet shown that he can put together a prolonged, top level run, perhaps a discipline issue. here is his chance. ive seen people call for his retirement, but that is madness that shows little confidence in him.

[thunderking500]

Wilder was called a bum by almost every boxing fan.

People hated on him and mocked him much as they could


Wilder was terrible in their last fight yet still almost knocked Fury out. Yeah Fury was hurt badly in that round and his face did not lie.


Wilder was always worse with "more weight".

His speed and cardio were gone.

IT was JUST terrible. Deontay had cardio for 5 rounds and looked very slow.


He's good when he weights about 220lbs.


Fury should not be called "goat" or something special.

Artur Szpilka gave Wilder very hard fight ( Wilder was about 228 lbs too)



Let's not overrate Fury for beating a smaller guy with limited boxing skills and poor cardio.


There are guys like Joe Joyce , Hunter , Usyk.

Their cardio Is not limited and they have some skills.

Fury has to beat them.


From his recent performance - Usyk beats him.

Fury wasn't even close to getting knocked out in the 4th.. he was hurt but was still conscious and got up... you don't dominate the rest of the fight like he did if he was almost knocked out

[mcrow24]

Wilder was called a bum by almost every boxing fan.

People hated on him and mocked him much as they could


Wilder was terrible in their last fight yet still almost knocked Fury out. Yeah Fury was hurt badly in that round and his face did not lie.


Wilder was always worse with "more weight".

His speed and cardio were gone.

IT was JUST terrible. Deontay had cardio for 5 rounds and looked very slow.


He's good when he weights about 220lbs.


Fury should not be called "goat" or something special.

Artur Szpilka gave Wilder very hard fight ( Wilder was about 228 lbs too)



Let's not overrate Fury for beating a smaller guy with limited boxing skills and poor cardio.


There are guys like Joe Joyce , Hunter , Usyk.

Their cardio Is not limited and they have some skills.

Fury has to beat them.


From his recent performance - Usyk beats him.

Fury wasn't even close to getting knocked out in the 4th.. he was hurt but was still conscious and got up... you don't dominate the rest of the fight like he did if he was almost knocked out

Yeah, he was hurt but you could see his eyes were clear, he was responding normally to the ref and wasn't wobbly getting up from either of the knockdowns. Fury is pretty tough, perhaps the heavies hitter in the division couldn't finish him with a clean shot.

[bobcatbox]

Can we not underrate him either? He ended WK’s reign as champ and defeated Wilder twice, taking his best shots in the process.

Still many good things to come I hope.

[mcrow24]

Can we not underrate him either? He ended WK’s reign as champ and defeated Wilder twice, taking his best shots in the process.

Still many good things to come I hope.

Anyone that states he's not the best Heavyweight right now is a fool. There's only one fighter that's a legit threat at the moment and he's a cruiserweight moving up and would be a huge size disadvantage. He may be a better boxer, but unless he beats Fury I don't see how you can call him the #1 heavyweight.

[cormack]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Ukrainian is pound for pound higher level than Tyson Fury in terms of skills or accomplishments--- the real question is whether the Ukrainian is higher than Tyson Fury at heavyweight.

That answer is no. And it is not debatable. Yes, what Usyk done is impressive but most people were already of the opinion that Joshua couldn't beat Fury anyways, so beating Joshua can only be seen as a good win and nothing more.

Re " And it is not debatable. "

of course it is !
until Fury fights Usyk we dont know - we can surmise and predict - but we dont know .

[HomicideHenry]

... You guys are only saying that because you don't want to accept that Fury is the best, and also because Usyk is the only man out there who remotely stands a chance of winning. Trying to make things more interesting than what they really are.

[Tony1244]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Ukrainian is pound for pound higher level than Tyson Fury in terms of skills or accomplishments--- the real question is whether the Ukrainian is higher than Tyson Fury at heavyweight.

That answer is no. And it is not debatable. Yes, what Usyk done is impressive but most people were already of the opinion that Joshua couldn't beat Fury anyways, so beating Joshua can only be seen as a good win and nothing more.

Sure, I'd favor Fury, but it's at least debatable. Louis-Conn 1, or instance.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Ukrainian is pound for pound higher level than Tyson Fury in terms of skills or accomplishments--- the real question is whether the Ukrainian is higher than Tyson Fury at heavyweight.

That answer is no. And it is not debatable. Yes, what Usyk done is impressive but most people were already of the opinion that Joshua couldn't beat Fury anyways, so beating Joshua can only be seen as a good win and nothing more.

Re " And it is not debatable. "

of course it is !
until Fury fights Usyk we dont know - we can surmise and predict - but we dont know .

Exactly! Anything which isn't factual is up for debate!

[mcrow24]

It's debatable who would win the fight but at heavyweight Fury is undeniably the best fighter at the moment.

Fury would probably destroy Joshua, Usyk may be the only fighter out there that could beat Fury outside of something freaky happening (as does happen at times at heavyweight).

The only people really over rating Fury are people putting him the top 10 all-time. He's just not fought anyone that would put him that high.

[cormack]

It's debatable who would win the fight but at heavyweight Fury is undeniably the best fighter at the moment.

Fury would probably destroy Joshua, Usyk may be the only fighter out there that could beat Fury outside of something freaky happening (as does happen at times at heavyweight).

The only people really over rating Fury are people putting him the top 10 all-time. He's just not fought anyone that would put him that high.

LOL
Based on the trilogy he is the best HW fighter at the moment ..... nah

he needs to beat a few or all of these first :

Joshua
Whyte
Usyk
Joyce
Parker
Ruiz

[mcrow24]

It's debatable who would win the fight but at heavyweight Fury is undeniably the best fighter at the moment.

Fury would probably destroy Joshua, Usyk may be the only fighter out there that could beat Fury outside of something freaky happening (as does happen at times at heavyweight).

The only people really over rating Fury are people putting him the top 10 all-time. He's just not fought anyone that would put him that high.

LOL
Based on the trilogy he is the best HW fighter at the moment ..... nah

he needs to beat a few or all of these first :

Joshua
Whyte
Usyk
Joyce
Parker
Ruiz

Ok then who's beaten all of those guys and thus the best Heavyweight?

And don't give me any BS about Joshua, that guy doesn't even deserve a shot at Fury right now.

You're argument is nonsense.

[Mexi-Box]

Joshua's resume had more depth than Fury or Wilder. People are severely underrating Usyk beating him.