Thoughts now on size of HWs compared to other eras?

[Controversial]

So, Fury isn't skilled now, because he was dropped 4 times.

Was Muhammad Ali skilled? He hardly ever threw a body punch, would keep his hands low and try and sway from punches, he was susceptible to a left hook and took a lot of punishment in fights. Marciano wasn't particularly skilled, he was good at what he done too, whipped himself into incredible shape and threw punches for 15 rounds, no finesse on show. Sometimes fighters just have qualities and strengths that separate them from the rest. Heart, bravery, determination and will to win often eclipses skill.

WAs Ali skilled? Umm yes. He hardly ever threw a body punch because he simply didn't need to. In his prime he didn't take much punishment; he was very hard to hit. He kept his hands low because of his ability to evade punches it actually made sense for to keep them low. Larry Holmes, Gene Tunney, and Roy Jones could do that. Very few fighters could.

He was not susceptible to a left hook. Was never knocked or hurt from it in his prime. Past his prime, he fought 41 rounds against Joe Frazier, who had a great left hook. Was knocked down once for three seconds. Fought several guys with good left hooks.

Agree that heart/bravery and determination is important. So is skill. So is speed. So is a chin. So is ring IQ.
That people give him credit to beating an ancient Klitschko just shows how desperate they are to give credit for something. All we really have to go are the Wilder fights. That he twice came that close to losing really is not good evidence of his "greatness." Simply watching him fight. He has some strengths and other areas where he needs improvement. He isn't great. We should not pretend that he is.

Agree that we have to look at strengths and weaknesses. Doing that, it is obvious that Ali was an extremely rare fighter. Marciano and Bowe (for a few years) was great. Fury is not.

I didn't say Ali wasn't skilled but he had other elements to his game that made him better than others, i.e. all the strengths pointed out. What is skill? You can be the most skilled fighter in the world, if you have a glass jaw, or are mentally weak, you might not achieve half what a less 'skilled' fighter will if they have those other elements to their game. Ali relied heavily on speed and reflexes which once he lost that wasn't the same fighter and he was involved in several dull fights. No one is saying Fury is an ATG but he is hard to beat, big, adaptable and awkward. His physical attributes just add to the problem he poses.

[HomicideHenry]

I guess since we're heading in that direction anyways we may as well ask the question, "How would a 6'3" 215 pound heavyweight who never had the reputation of being a puncher (Ali) fair against Tyson Fury?"

Ali never fought a man who was a combination of size, skills, power, ring IQ, and athleticism. If he fought men nearly as heavy (ie, Buster Mathis) they weren't as tall. If he fought men nearly as tall (ie, Ernie Terrell) they weren't as athletic.

If he fought men nearly as athletic (ie, Floyd Patterson) they weren't as skillful. If he fought men nearly as skillful (ie, Jimmy Young) they weren't powerful. If he fought men nearly as powerful (ie, George Foreman) they weren't as smart. Etc etc etc.

Tyson Fury is not only 6" taller but 50 pounds heavier, with a 7" longer reach. He's athletic, moving around more like a light heavyweight than a super heavyweight. He does hit hard. Presents odd angles. Very awkward. Can box for twelve rounds, or brawl for twelve rounds. Knows how to use his size well. Sets up traps. Great head movement. Takes a great punch. He also wouldn't get psyched out.

The 1970s version of Cassius Clay aka Muhammad Ali, especially from 1975 onwards, I can't see doing much with Fury. It's the 1960s version of Ali that would be problematic but even then, Fury could always tie him up and lean on him, etc--- and it would be pretty ugly.

Sure, Ali would get his licks in but I don't think he's going to be able to do it as much as he wants to. This isn't Terrell, Wepner, etc--- this is a full-fledged giant who can basically do anything he wants in the boxing ring.

Ali's great conditioning and speed would make him last the entire distance, but I think Fury nullifies the vast majority of Ali's tactics and it probably ends in a draw or split or majority decision in favor of Tyson Fury because the punch rate would be so low with very little combinations getting through.

Of course this is all hypothetical and mere conjecture that doesn't prove anything. Usyk is being compared to Evander Holyfield, or even being better than Evander Holyfield, and if Tyson Fury beats him--- you have to seriously consider the fact that Tyson Fury is not just a top 10 heavyweight of all time but arguably in the top five heavyweights of all time.

Holyfield and Usyk were basically bigger in size than Cassius Clay, so there might be an argument that Fury would negate enough of Ali's speed and tactics to warrant an ugly, possibly boring, decision.

[Cojimar 1946]

I don't see how the Klitschko fight is a mark against Fury when he won handily. Fighting cautiously makes sense when your facing a big hitter even if it makes for boring fights.

[Controversial]

I guess since we're heading in that direction anyways we may as well ask the question, "How would a 6'3" 215 pound heavyweight who never had the reputation of being a puncher (Ali) fair against Tyson Fury?"

Ali's great conditioning and speed would make him last the entire distance, but I think Fury nullifies the vast majority of Ali's tactics and it probably ends in a draw or split or majority decision in favor of Tyson Fury because the punch rate would be so low with very little combinations getting through.

I think Fury would beat Ali by decision too. I can't see Ali stopping him so he would need to outpoint Fury and no way is he hitting Fury without being caught himself. As you say Fury can adapt, he can fight on the inside and he would tie Ali up. His size and weight would cause Ali problems. At distance Ali would need to get closer to land, easier when your opponent is smaller or pretty much the same size as you.

[DrDuke]

I guess since we're heading in that direction anyways we may as well ask the question, "How would a 6'3" 215 pound heavyweight who never had the reputation of being a puncher (Ali) fair against Tyson Fury?"

Ali's great conditioning and speed would make him last the entire distance, but I think Fury nullifies the vast majority of Ali's tactics and it probably ends in a draw or split or majority decision in favor of Tyson Fury because the punch rate would be so low with very little combinations getting through.

I think Fury would beat Ali by decision too. I can't see Ali stopping him so he would need to outpoint Fury and no way is he hitting Fury without being caught himself. As you say Fury can adapt, he can fight on the inside and he would tie Ali up. His size and weight would cause Ali problems. At distance Ali would need to get closer to land, easier when your opponent is smaller or pretty much the same size as you.

Now wait Alpy to explode.

[evrenb]

I think Ali circa 64 -75 would beat any version of Fury. And relatively easy. Such a gulf in talents. Fury, to his credit, can make what he has to work for him. But Ali all the way for me.

[Bodyshot3]

Fury versus Bowe does feel like a good fight for mythical.

Although I feel that Fury still holds more aces and is ultimately a better evolution of the huge guy who can both box or bully depending on who and what is front of them.

Bowe and Lewis effectively ushered in this area of massive fellas who were not statues and had a range of tools at their disposal. They could throw bombs or be patient and also defend themselves better than their predecessors.

I am pretty sure Fury finds a way with Bowe but not so sure with Lewis.

[HomicideHenry]

I guess since we're heading in that direction anyways we may as well ask the question, "How would a 6'3" 215 pound heavyweight who never had the reputation of being a puncher (Ali) fair against Tyson Fury?"

Ali's great conditioning and speed would make him last the entire distance, but I think Fury nullifies the vast majority of Ali's tactics and it probably ends in a draw or split or majority decision in favor of Tyson Fury because the punch rate would be so low with very little combinations getting through.

I think Fury would beat Ali by decision too. I can't see Ali stopping him so he would need to outpoint Fury and no way is he hitting Fury without being caught himself. As you say Fury can adapt, he can fight on the inside and he would tie Ali up. His size and weight would cause Ali problems. At distance Ali would need to get closer to land, easier when your opponent is smaller or pretty much the same size as you.

That's the thing.

People act like Fury would just stand there and let Ali do it he'd get hit 2-3-4 times while coming in and Fury would tie him up, lean on him, and maul him until the referee broke it up.

If he made Ali come to him, not going after Ali, kind of like the game plan Oscar Bonavena tried to do (and almost pulled it off) I can't see any version from the 1970s doing the job--- and the 1960s version would be nullified for the most part.

Even the leaner, more athletic version of Fury--- weighing in the high 240s and 250s, would constantly keep a jab in his face. That's what won two out of three (if not all three) fights against Ali when Norton fought him, regardless of what the record books say, constantly putting a jab in his face.

It may not be Liston's jab, or Holmes jab, or even Klitschko's jab--- but it's certainly a major distraction, that scores points almost at will, and Fury has enough of a ring IQ to know it's pointless to go head hunting against Ali so it would be jabs to the body (chest) because it's a larger target to hit.

Like I said earlier it would be a pretty ugly and probably dull fight, where very little is done between the two men, but I can't see Ali really at any point having his way anyway he feels like against Tyson Fury.

Now if we're talking Lennox Lewis, George Foreman, or Larry Holmes it becomes a different story because they were anatomically bigger than Ali and were better infighters, had more power, excellent ring IQs, and they had more of a killer instinct--- and those three men I see presenting problems for Tyson Fury.

But Ali, not so much. At his absolute best all he really had was tremendous speed and wore guys out simply because they tried to chase him. Which is why he had to change everything when he came back in the 1970s when he started getting slower, because he was susceptible to the left hook, and wasn't good at infighting.

In the 1970s, he was easier to hit and he relied more on toughness and psychological tactics--- the rope a dope wore opponents out, and it was necessary to use that tactic because he couldn't dance for long periods of time anymore.

Fury wouldn't get suckered into falling for the trap. He would talk trash, etc--- forcing Ali to come at him again, working harder than he normally would. And that would cost him in the later rounds because he would be burning out.

[evrenb]

I guess since we're heading in that direction anyways we may as well ask the question, "How would a 6'3" 215 pound heavyweight who never had the reputation of being a puncher (Ali) fair against Tyson Fury?"

Ali's great conditioning and speed would make him last the entire distance, but I think Fury nullifies the vast majority of Ali's tactics and it probably ends in a draw or split or majority decision in favor of Tyson Fury because the punch rate would be so low with very little combinations getting through.

I think Fury would beat Ali by decision too. I can't see Ali stopping him so he would need to outpoint Fury and no way is he hitting Fury without being caught himself. As you say Fury can adapt, he can fight on the inside and he would tie Ali up. His size and weight would cause Ali problems. At distance Ali would need to get closer to land, easier when your opponent is smaller or pretty much the same size as you.

That's the thing.

People act like Fury would just stand there and let Ali do it he'd get hit 2-3-4 times while coming in and Fury would tie him up, lean on him, and maul him until the referee broke it up.

If he made Ali come to him, not going after Ali, kind of like the game plan Oscar Bonavena tried to do (and almost pulled it off) I can't see any version from the 1970s doing the job--- and the 1960s version would be nullified for the most part.

Even the leaner, more athletic version of Fury--- weighing in the high 240s and 250s, would constantly keep a jab in his face. That's what won two out of three (if not all three) fights against Ali when Norton fought him, regardless of what the record books say, constantly putting a jab in his face.

It may not be Liston's jab, or Holmes jab, or even Klitschko's jab--- but it's certainly a major distraction, that scores points almost at will, and Fury has enough of a ring IQ to know it's pointless to go head hunting against Ali so it would be jabs to the body (chest) because it's a larger target to hit.

Like I said earlier it would be a pretty ugly and probably dull fight, where very little is done between the two men, but I can't see Ali really at any point having his way anyway he feels like against Tyson Fury.

Now if we're talking Lennox Lewis, George Foreman, or Larry Holmes it becomes a different story because they were anatomically bigger than Ali and were better infighters, had more power, excellent ring IQs, and they had more of a killer instinct--- and those three men I see presenting problems for Tyson Fury.

But Ali, not so much. At his absolute best all he really had was tremendous speed and wore guys out simply because they tried to chase him. Which is why he had to change everything when he came back in the 1970s when he started getting slower, because he was susceptible to the left hook, and wasn't good at infighting.

In the 1970s, he was easier to hit and he relied more on toughness and psychological tactics--- the rope a dope wore opponents out, and it was necessary to use that tactic because he couldn't dance for long periods of time anymore.

Fury wouldn't get suckered into falling for the trap. He would talk trash, etc--- forcing Ali to come at him again, working harder than he normally would. And that would cost him in the later rounds because he would be burning out.

Truly a terrible terrible post. Perhaps the worst I have ever seen. Tremendous undermining of Ali. Entitled to your opinion I guess.

[Giancarlo]

But Ali, not so much. At his absolute best all he really had was tremendous speed

I like Tyson Fury. As a boxing fan what is there not to like.

But I think you sell Ali a bit short here Rufus.

He had much more to his game than just speed.

You watch a lot of fights and love the game; I'm sure you can recognise this.

[HomicideHenry]

But Ali, not so much. At his absolute best all he really had was tremendous speed

I like Tyson Fury. As a boxing fan what is there not to like.

But I think you sell Ali a bit short here Rufus.

He had much more to his game than just speed.

You watch a lot of fights and love the game; I'm sure you can recognise this.

The man was so astonishingly fast he basically could get away with mistakes. When he started to slow down, those opportunities to get away with mistakes became less and less--- he became a more well-rounded fighter when he was forced to change his style when he became more flat-footed and slow.

He had a great jab, although I would say Larry Holmes had a superior jab, and of course put combinations together nicely but those were all things that were heavily reliant upon speed.

Once the speed began to diminish, the combinations became less frequent--- the only time I really recall him landing punches at will on anyone in the 1970s was against guys like Wepner, Dunne, Coopman, Blin, etc who were of lesser quality than genuine threats.

We must never forget that this man could be out boxed and out fought, after all one man was able to figure out two completely different ways to beat him (Eddie Futch).

He could be negated. He could be nullified. He could be thrown off his game plan. The 1960s version may have been the best possible version of Ali but it cannot be understated that the man was largely untested in the 1960s because there simply wasn't anyone in the same stratosphere to give him problems.

I can imagine him losing to Joe Frazier in 1969, had Ali not been forced out of boxing. He may of had the speed, but he would have had no answers for a man who had the conditioning to go to war for 15 rounds nonstop--- simply because the faster, younger version never really had to learn to cope with such a threat.

If Henry Cooper could almost knock out Ali, I have no doubt that Joe Frazier in the late 1960s would have done it too. The younger, faster version was wide open to be hit--- easier said than done, of course--- but I think Frazier would have got to him strictly because Frazier was just as talented and just as conditioned and was basically the same age as Ali.

A lot of people don't really look at the numbers but on average Ali's opponents were 15 years older than he was--- and that should be taken into consideration when people talk about Ali in the 1960s. If Rocky Marciano gets criticized for facing old men, who were only a handful of years older than he was, it ought to be a criticism of Ali.

[Controversial]

I think there is sometimes an automatic dismissal of anyone not considered to be a great fighter in head to head bouts with ATGs from the past from fans. It's like the modern fighters would just fall over or be easily outclassed. In reality lots of average fighters give the best hard fights, sometimes beating them and I wouldn't call Fury average. Ali wouldn't be knocking Fury out. So would he really outbox Fury so comfortably that it would be an easy fight, based on what? Maybe if Fury just stood there and let Ali hit him but that wouldn't happen.

[Giancarlo]

I can imagine him losing to Joe Frazier in 1969, had Ali not been forced out of boxing. He may of had the speed, but he would have had no answers for a man who had the conditioning to go to war for 15 rounds nonstop--- simply because the faster, younger version never really had to learn to cope with such a threat.

If Henry Cooper could almost knock out Ali, I have no doubt that Joe Frazier in the late 1960s would have done it too. The younger, faster version was wide open to be hit--- easier said than done, of course--- but I think Frazier would have got to him strictly because Frazier was just as talented and just as conditioned and was basically the same age as Ali.

I don't wish to downplay Joe Frazier as he too was a great fighter but he himself was floored heavily by the strong but fairly crude Oscar Bonavena.

It's all part of the game. How a fighter reacts to being caught flush and floored tells you a lot. I'm sure you would have given kudos to Fury the other week when he was able to come back strongly after being floored and badly hurt. Maybe you might think of recognising that same attribute in Ali. If all he really had was speed he would surely have folded after being hit flush with Cooper's best shot and badly hurt. If there was one thing Henry had that was world class it was his left hook.

[Giancarlo]

I think there is sometimes an automatic dismissal of anyone not considered to be a great fighter in head to head bouts with ATGs from the past from fans. It's like the modern fighters would just fall over or be easily outclassed. In reality lots of average fighters give the best hard fights, sometimes beating them and I wouldn't call Fury average. Ali wouldn't be knocking Fury out. So would he really outbox Fury so comfortably that it would be an easy fight, based on what? Maybe if Fury just stood there and let Ali hit him but that wouldn't happen.

Yes, many fight fans, myself included, are prone to exaggerating in our minds the abilities of the greats of our youth unless we are careful. Probably something to do with those days being the best of our lives ergo the fighters of those days had to be the best too. Similar to how the music of our youth always sounds better than most later stuff. Or maybe that is just nonsense.

Anyway, in my opinion, Fury would be a handful for any of the past greats I have seen. I believe some would beat him but I don't see many, if any, having an easy night.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali had great recuperating powers. Henry Cooper will probably always go down in the history books as the greatest British level champion of all time, but he was certainly not world class. Every time he tried to get beyond the European level he was shut down.

Oscar Bonavena may have floored Joe Frazier in their first fight but he was certainly a higher level fighter than Henry Cooper was. And I'm a big fan of Henry Cooper.

Hell I wish Great Britain still held regional titles with the kind of esteem they did in his time. I really wish the British Empire and Commonwealth titles were still a "thing", highly coveted, like they were in his time.

But facts are facts. Cooper simply was not a world-class opponent. He was just the best that Britain had. Back then the champion could travel the world and fight national champions and it was acceptable because they were the best a country had to offer--- when the reality was those guys were notches below the absolute best in the world.

I mean hell, Jerry Quarry knocked out British champion Jack Boddell in a single round in 1971. The same Jack Boddell who went 15 rounds with Cooper in that same year. Sure you can bring up the fact Cooper beat Boddell by kayo just five years earlier (2 rounds) but the point is this--- back then European fighters, especially heavyweights, were not particularly all that good.

Cooper was brutally stopped by Floyd Patterson (KO4), Zora Folley (KO2), Ingemar Johansson (KO5), etc--- and when he met Ali the first time in 1963 he had already been a professional for a decade. His scar tissue had scar tissue from wars with his fellow countrymen, and the few times he tried to go outside of the British & European level.

In a lot of ways he was older physically then he was in years because of the abuse his body took. He certainly looked older than his age in 1963. He was 20 in 1954 when he made his debut.

But because Ali did not take the Englishman seriously, and because he never truly learned how to protect himself--- because he was so fast he could get away with mistakes--- when he got caught, he got seriously hurt.

People want to talk about long counts and other controversies, but I would like to see Ali get away with the extended time he was given between rounds today in 2021. All from a punch from a man weighing no more than 185 lb.

[Giancarlo]

OK, Rufus, plenty I would disagree with there but life it too short for me to waste any more of it on this. I see your mind is made up. Maybe in a few years, and if you add context, meaning and a healthy dose of impartiality to your views, I'll continue this chat with you.

All the best mate.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't see how putting Henry Cooper in his genuine context rather than some inflated view is being bullheaded and stubborn but okay, lol.

Mind you I have said many times in the past on the forum that Muhammad Ali is the "measuring stick" by which all other heavyweights are to be compared--- but that doesn't mean he couldn't be beaten or that every other heavyweight in history is beneath him.

Personally I rate Larry Holmes as the greatest heavyweight of all time. Why? He's one of the very few men I can think of who legitimately could have beaten any version of Muhammad Ali. Evander Holyfield at his absolute best is another one I would argue could beat Ali.

And of course I think Ali would have struggled, if not lost to, the following: Lennox Lewis, the Klitschko brothers and Tyson Fury. Why? For reasons I already stated before. Size combined with high ring IQs and athleticism and abilities.

It wouldn't have been easy. Not one damn bit. Don't get me wrong. It would have went the whole 12 or 15 rounds and would have been hard work throughout--- but those men would have nullified his best attributes, and potentially would have beaten him. More so Lewis & Fury than the Klitschko's.

[Controversial]

I think there is sometimes an automatic dismissal of anyone not considered to be a great fighter in head to head bouts with ATGs from the past from fans. It's like the modern fighters would just fall over or be easily outclassed. In reality lots of average fighters give the best hard fights, sometimes beating them and I wouldn't call Fury average. Ali wouldn't be knocking Fury out. So would he really outbox Fury so comfortably that it would be an easy fight, based on what? Maybe if Fury just stood there and let Ali hit him but that wouldn't happen.

Yes, many fight fans, myself included, are prone to exaggerating in our minds the abilities of the greats of our youth unless we are careful. Probably something to do with those days being the best of our lives ergo the fighters of those days had to be the best too. Similar to how the music of our youth always sounds better than most later stuff. Or maybe that is just nonsense.

Anyway, in my opinion, Fury would be a handful for any of the past greats I have seen. I believe some would beat him but I don't see many, if any, having an easy night.

Yes I agree. If you said 'Wilder could knock Marciano out' most old timers would give you a barrage of insults or laugh, fact is in fantasy fight land if Wilder landed a big right hand flush on Marciano's temple or jaw, why wouldn't it knock him out? Boxing is full of upsets and odd results, being a great fighter doesn't mean fighters below you in skill, ability or achievements can't beat you. Fury beating Ali goes against the grain but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

[margaret thatcher]

marciano on fight night was often about the size of a modern smw with no reach, a lot of these historically lauded hws would be fighting in other divisions today, and not just simply cruiser, some even lower. jack johnson and dempsey was about the size of modern lhws. of course this type of size difference vs a 6'5 240 + type world level heavy is going to usually be a factor. why dont all these top lhws or even smws just stroll up and become hw champs otherwise

guys like ali though are bigger, 6'3 220 etc is a far different boat than a guy who is 6'0 185 without any draining

[HomicideHenry]

Ali in his prime (1960s) in his last ten bouts:

211 pounds against Zora Folley
212 pounds against Ernie Terrell
212 pounds Cleveland Williams
204 pounds Karl Mildenberger
209 pounds Brian London
201 pounds Henry Cooper
214 pounds George Chuvalo
210 pounds Floyd Patterson
206 pounds Sonny Liston
210 pounds Sonny Liston

The lightest he ever was as a professional was 188 pounds against Alex Miteff in 1961. Mind you Cassius Clay was a light heavyweight gold medalist, so we're talking a cruiserweight for the most part.

Oleksandr Usyk was mostly 198-200 pounds while as a cruiserweight. Evander Holyfield was between 185-195 pounds as a cruiserweight. So it's pretty much comparable in terms of size.

This notion of Ali being 220+ didn't come around until the 1970s. The last time Ali was under 220 was Foreman in 1974. His worst performances were when he was over 220 like the first Norton fight, and when he was 230 against Jimmy Young and was gifted a decision that most people thought he lost. He was 224 for Spinks the first time around and 221 the second time.

RING magazine has the cruiserweight limit being 200 pounds. If you take into consideration the IBO recognizing the "super cruiserweight" division, or bridgerweight, that's 210 pounds. So in effect, five out of ten of Ali's championship bouts in the 1960s were not heavyweight matches by today's standards.

The last time I saw a man weighing 210-215 pounds or smaller do anything substantive in the heavyweight division, excluding the one night only experiment Jones had against Ruiz, was probably Tomasz Adamek the former light heavyweight and cruiserweight champion. Even he was stopped in a rather one-sided bout against Vitali Klitschko in 2011.

True, Adamek is not in the same level of skills and abilities as Ali but he's certainly not some tomato can either. Like, margaret thatcher pointed out modern day super middleweights on fight night are basically cruiserweights--- so I don't think people are really taking into account just how much bigger people in boxing today really are.

[DrDuke]

On the subject of big modern heavyweights, when is Big Baby Miller going to return to the ring? The guy was weighing in at 300 lbs, and he wasn't fat. Big and powerful, but not fat. He's built like a tank, and looks like he's going turn the other contenders into roadkill.

Any updates on Big Baby's status?

He plans a comeback asap.

Btw, he's fat, just in a mix with muscles.

[margaret thatcher]

he is much less flabby than most 320 pound guys, and defo a naturally thick built boi, but ya he's still fat. he put on like 40 pounds over the last 3-4 years of his career and he was already huge before that . he has very little definition and clearly a healthy layer of lard

he was once as low as 240s as a pro but in his last fights was almost 80 pounds heavier

funny enough his stamina was one of his stronger points, but who knows what that will be like off his ped cocktail. dude wsa taking absolutely everything. failed for at least 3 different fights including his kickboxing career. taking every ped in america.

[Ambling Alp II]

But Ali, not so much. At his absolute best all he really had was tremendous speed

I like Tyson Fury. As a boxing fan what is there not to like.

But I think you sell Ali a bit short here Rufus.

He had much more to his game than just speed.

You watch a lot of fights and love the game; I'm sure you can recognise this.

"All he had was speed". One of the great comments homicide/rufus.

He had phenomenal reflexes. Was one of the most accurate heavyweight punchers ever. Had a tremendous ring IQ. Great chin. Underrated power. A lot of heart. That and being the fastest heavyweight of all time made the best.
He beat better competition of any heavyweight ever. I think even you would agree with that. You don't just do that speed.

[DrDuke]

Detonation went as expected.

[Seamus]

All true, but Clay-Ali could also blow a fight by not utilizing his abilities, i,e Doug Jones, Norton I-3, Shavers, etc. He got hit way too many times in those bouts because he either ignored defense or laid on the ropes and waited too long to counter. He could outpoint Fury, but he'd have to be at his very best to do it, and that means lots of movement.