Thoughts now on size of HWs compared to other eras?

[Ambling Alp II]

He was not in his prime for any of these fights and still won 4 out of 5 of them.

Jones was a little before his time. Even then, he won it in the Fight of the Year.
He was past it by the first two Norton fights and way past it by the third Norton fight and the Shavers fight.

Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have little trouble hitting Fury and would have little trouble not getting hit.

Ali from about 1971-1975 would get hit more but there is no way he would lose.

[DrDuke]

He was not in his prime for any of these fights and still won 4 out of 5 of them.

Jones was a little before his time. Even then, he won it in the Fight of the Year.
He was past it by the first two Norton fights and way past it by the third Norton fight and the Shavers fight.

Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have little trouble hitting Fury and would have little trouble not getting hit.

Ali from about 1971-1975 would get hit more but there is no way he would lose.

You attempts to narrow the prime of Ali look especially amusing, acknowledging how 'little trouble not getting hit' Ali had against the likes of George Chuvalo.

[Controversial]

He was not in his prime for any of these fights and still won 4 out of 5 of them.

Jones was a little before his time. Even then, he won it in the Fight of the Year.
He was past it by the first two Norton fights and way past it by the third Norton fight and the Shavers fight.

Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have little trouble hitting Fury and would have little trouble not getting hit.

Ali from about 1971-1975 would get hit more but there is no way he would lose.

So Ali was past it in 1973 aged 31?

Why is there no way he'd lose either, would Fury be unable to hit Ali, because lesser fighters managed it? Would Fury pushing, mauling, leaning and hitting Ali on the inside not have any effect? Or do you think Fury would just follow him around the ring and walk into punches?

[HomicideHenry]

Ali from about 1971-1975 would get hit more but there is no way he would lose.

On the basis of what? @ "No way he would lose"

He nearly lost to Oscar Bonavena and was losing rounds to Ron Lyle, and he lost to Norton and Frazier in that timeframe too. He also got cut for the first time in his career by Bob Foster due to an accumulation of jabs.

My logic is this. What if George Foreman actually fought smart in Zaire, not falling for the rope-a-dope tactic, forcing Ali to come to the center of the ring? I don't think Ali would have won had Foreman done that, because Ali could not dance for 15 rounds anymore.

I can see Fury not falling for the rope-a-dope. After all if you could bring somebody out of a time machine to do such matches you already know their tactics, and already know when they are starting to decline, etc.

Make no mistake Ali was more flat-footed and slow, easier to hit, etc--- and that is a bad recipe when your opponent (Fury) has a great engine to box or brawl for the scheduled distance, plus has a great ring IQ, and all the size and athleticism you could want.

Fury isn't going to get psyched out either. He'd talk trash, etc too. If anything it would probably bother Muhammad Ali more than it would Tyson Fury, because Fury wouldn't fall for Ali's mind games.

That's why I say the 1960s version would be the tougher assignment, because even though that version was largely untested he was twice as fast to get away with mistakes.

The 1970s version, however, is basically right there for the taking for a guy like Tyson Fury. Ali would go the distance, don't get me wrong, but it's quite possible he (Ali) loses a unanimous decision. If Norton, a man who was thought to be a glorified nobody before facing Ali, could beat him by out-jabbing him I have little doubt that Fury does it too.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali had three round soft fighting in the previous three and half years when he fought Bonavena. And he was not almost losing. And he did stop Bonavena. Guess what, Ken Norton and Joe Frazier were pretty good. Even better than an ancient Klitschko who Fury struggled with.
He got cut once in his career? So what? What do you think fury's face would look like after getting hit by Ali over and over?
Fury had a great engine to box? He would be fighting against a guy who fought at a helluva lot faster pace than he was used to.
No he probably would not fight a rope a dope against Fury. He did that one time in his career. Wouldn't be necessary against Fury.

Fury would be out of gas having to fight a faster pace for 15 rounds. He would be getting hit much more than he ever did before. He would toast after the middle rounds.

This would be against the early 1970s version. It would be much worse against a prime Ali.

[margaret thatcher]

Alp thinks Cleveland Williams was better than Fury

[Ambling Alp II]

He was not in his prime for any of these fights and still won 4 out of 5 of them.

Jones was a little before his time. Even then, he won it in the Fight of the Year.
He was past it by the first two Norton fights and way past it by the third Norton fight and the Shavers fight.

Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have little trouble hitting Fury and would have little trouble not getting hit.

Ali from about 1971-1975 would get hit more but there is no way he would lose.

So Ali was past it in 1973 aged 31?

Why is there no way he'd lose either, would Fury be unable to hit Ali, because lesser fighters managed it? Would Fury pushing, mauling, leaning and hitting Ali on the inside not have any effect? Or do you think Fury would just follow him around the ring and walk into punches?

When I say past it, I mean past his best. His prime was cut short. Ali did not have a fight for over three and half years. You don't just pick up and be as good you were when that happens.
Ali had lost a lot of speed and reflexes were not the same. Could he still move around for short periods of time? Sure. Could he still throw quick (though not as quick) combinations from time to time? Yes. It just wasn't the same as before

Was he still a great fighter in 1971? Yes. He was still great until 1975. He simply was not in his prime. Simply watch any of his fights from 1971-1975 and than watch any of them from 1964-1967. He was clearly better than in 1964-1967.

Was he still better from 1971-1975 than the elusive Tyson Fury? Obviously.

From 1964-1967 he had 10 championship fights. (Real championship fights, not just a WBS title). He went 10-0. He scored 8 knockouts and had two lopsided decisions in his favor. Overall, his competition was very good and their styles varied. He was great both offensively and defensively. There are maybe a handful of fighters of any weight that were great offensive fighters and great defensive fighters.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali had three round soft fighting in the previous three and half years when he fought Bonavena. And he was not almost losing. And he did stop Bonavena. Guess what, Ken Norton and Joe Frazier were pretty good. Even better than an ancient Klitschko who Fury struggled with.
He got cut once in his career? So what? What do you think fury's face would look like after getting hit by Ali over and over?
Fury had a great engine to box? He would be fighting against a guy who fought at a helluva lot faster pace than he was used to.
No he probably would not fight a rope a dope against Fury. He did that one time in his career. Wouldn't be necessary against Fury.

Fury would be out of gas having to fight a faster pace for 15 rounds. He would be getting hit much more than he ever did before. He would toast after the middle rounds.

This would be against the early 1970s version. It would be much worse against a prime Ali.

Toast?

That's quite the imagination considering Fury went ten or twelve rounds several times in his career, even when he was grossly overweight.

And yes, Ali was looking tremendously like crap against Oscar Bonavena, and regardless of what the scorecards said, Ali was losing that fight before stopping Bonavena in the 15th. In fact, I would argue the Argentinian was robbed of a knockdown or two in that fight.

Fury didn't struggle with Klitschko. It was probably the easiest fight he had with the exception of the Chisora rematch and the Kevin Johnson fight. Fury's game plan was strictly to outbox Klitschko, not to make a fight of it, because he said before and after the fight that people have knocked out Klitschko but nobody has ever outboxed him.

Ken Norton BECAME good, but prior to facing Ali he had been kayoed by Jose Luis Garcia and did not have a single solitary win against any one of any real consequence. Context is everything. Ali lost to a glorified nobody that night, and one can make a serious argument that Norton won all three fights or at least two out of three.

Ali did the rope-a-dope multiple times, not just against Foreman. Sorry those revisionist tactics may work in politics but not in boxing. He did it with Wepner, Lyle, Frazier, etc.

Ali never had the reputation of being a puncher so it's hard to imagine how a guy who needed several rounds of a cumulative shots in order to get technical knockouts is going to stop Fury in the middle rounds.

It's not going to be Fury who was going to have to work harder than he ever had, it would be Ali having to work harder than he was used to--- because he would have to overcome a giant with athleticism and skills who could be very elusive and doesn't mind getting down and dirty making it a dog fight either.

I mean really look at the fights from 1971 and onwards--- let's really examine how low the punch rate was for Ali, because it was substantially lower than it was in the 1960s.

I'm down to do a round-by-round analysis of some 1970s Ali fights, kind of like compubox. I did a similar thread years ago with Rocky Marciano showing that he threw well over 80 punches a round and sometimes as high as 120 punches a round.

BTW, just because someone has more accomplishments or has been in more high profile matches or entertaining matches does not necessarily equate to them being the winner in a head-to-head matchup.

After all Anthony Joshua may have unified the titles and had more title defenses than Tyson Fury but there is nobody who honestly believes that Anthony Joshua could ever beat Tyson Fury. Accomplishments mean nothing. It's really about who is better and who has been tested.

Furthermore, you're talking about men who were 6 ft tall and 200 lb fighting other men 6 ft tall and 200 lb for the most part. They never truly fought enormous heavyweights who were not only athletic but were smart and had skills.

It's one thing putting on great performances against men your own size, it's a whole other kettle of fish putting on a good performance against a man who makes you look like a child.

Tommy Burns was a great pound for pound fighter in his day but Jack Johnson was simply too big and too good--- and what we are talking about here is comparable height and weight differentials.

I get it. You are nostalgic. You think everybody today stinks and couldn't hold a candle to childhood heroes. That's fine, but don't act like you're being objective.

I never said it would come easy for Fury. I said it would go the entire distance whether it be the '60s or '70s version. Fury would have to bring his A+ game, and it would most likely be a ugly and dull match with Fury nullifying Ali's attributes.

You on the other hand want to say the slower and flat-footed version of Ali would make Fury "toast" in the middle rounds, regardless if it is 12 rounds or 15 rounds. Four through six rounds? That is absolutely ridiculous.

On what basis? Don't even bring up Steve Cunningham cus that was eight years ago. Even at that Fury was screwing around, not taking anything seriously, got dropped and got up at the count of four, and then proceeded to beat the living crap out of the former cruiserweight champion of the world. And that certainly wasn't Fury at his best either.

One thing I will give you is this. Ali was better in rematches, just like Joe Louis. But then again so is Tyson Fury. So who knows how a trilogy would go. But in a one-off showdown? It would be close, but I do give it to Tyson Fury.

[Onetimeonly]

Dear god, what would prompt someone to type that many words on a message board. Fury would be exhausted after 5 or 6 rounds.

[HomicideHenry]

Dear god, what would prompt someone to type that many words on a message board. Fury would be exhausted after 5 or 6 rounds.

On the basis of what?

The man went 12 rounds five times. He's went ten rounds (or over ten) five times. He's always had a good engine even when out of shape. You people are ridiculous.

[Onetimeonly]

Dear god, what would prompt someone to type that many words on a message board. Fury would be exhausted after 5 or 6 rounds.

On the basis of what?

The man went 12 rounds five times. He's went ten rounds (or over ten) five times. He's always had a good engine even when out of shape. You people are ridiculous.

Fury doesn't throw a third of the punches Ali did.

[HomicideHenry]

Dear god, what would prompt someone to type that many words on a message board. Fury would be exhausted after 5 or 6 rounds.

On the basis of what?

The man went 12 rounds five times. He's went ten rounds (or over ten) five times. He's always had a good engine even when out of shape. You people are ridiculous.

Fury doesn't throw a third of the punches Ali did.

Yeah he threw a lot of punches against men his own size. What's he going to do against a man who is every bit as good or as skilled as anyone he has ever faced who is much larger than anyone he's ever faced?

The vast majority of those punches are going to catch nothing but air and arms and shoulders. Nothing really effective. It's all about landing on the head and body, that's what wins rounds.

It's not going to be an easy assignment not one damn bit, especially when Fury is 250 pounds and can move around a lot like Ali did. People seriously underestimate the mobility and agility of the 6'9" 250-270+ Fury.

Don't bring up Terrell or Mathis, saying that Ali did just fine against tall or large heavyweights because both men are not as good as Tyson Fury, and both still significantly smaller than Tyson Fury especially Terrell who was 195-210 for the majority of his career.

[Onetimeonly]

[HomicideHenry]

See?

You got no answer for it.

Laughing adds nothing and takes away nothing.

[Onetimeonly]

See?

You got no answer for it.

Laughing adds nothing and takes away nothing.

Yes, that's it. I've never read your novels. Easier to just assume you're wrong.

[HomicideHenry]

See?

You got no answer for it.

Laughing adds nothing and takes away nothing.

Yes, that's it. I've never read your novels. Easier to just assume you're wrong.

This is why I don't take you seriously.

You all want to act like you are objective but you don't even bother to read anything.

Spoken like a true democrat. "Let's pass this bill so we can know what's in it." In your case, "I don't read anything you write and just assume you're wrong."

[Giancarlo]

Dear god, what would prompt someone to type that many words on a message board.

The love that dares not speak it's name?

[Onetimeonly]

See?

You got no answer for it.

Laughing adds nothing and takes away nothing.

Yes, that's it. I've never read your novels. Easier to just assume you're wrong.

This is why I don't take you seriously.

You all want to act like you are objective but you don't even bother to read anything.

Spoken like a true democrat. "Let's pass this bill so we can know what's in it." In your case, "I don't read anything you write and just assume you're wrong."

:I don't read any long posts. Especially from someone as stupid as yourself.

[HomicideHenry]

Nothing more than gibberish as far as I'm concerned from a man wanting to steer the direction of the thread into nonsense.

[Onetimeonly]

Nothing more than gibberish as far as I'm concerned from a man wanting to steer the direction of the thread into nonsense.

Nobody is putting a gun to your head to respond. By all means, stfu.

[HomicideHenry]

Just another internet warrior looking to flex his online muscles to put someone in their place sorry sunshine not you or anyone else has ever going to shut me up so deal with it.

[Onetimeonly]

Just another internet warrior looking to flex his online muscles to put someone in their place sorry sunshine not you or anyone else has ever going to shut me up so deal with it.

Coming from the guy who constantly tries to fight over the Internet. Face it Rufus, you're a clown. Deal with it? Lol, you couldn't be more insignificant.

[Onetimeonly]

You'll have a hissy fit soon enough and announce you're leaving in your vintage melodramatic ovary tirade.

[HomicideHenry]

I say Fury would give Muhammad Ali a hard fight and this is the kind of responses I get. Take that "insignificant" nonsense elsewhere. I'm not here to engage in a shouting match but to talk to people with boxing knowledge. I may disagree mightily with Alp and others, but at least they bother making constructive arguments.

[margaret thatcher]

i think fury could give ali problems for sure, in fantasy fights ppl all too often want to make it easy and love claiming one-sided victories against guys really no worse than other fighters who gave them problems. furys freak size and ability to go with it make him a very rare opponent , one that even the highly experiences greats pretty much never came across, and i think one that for even excellent fighters would at least take some time to adjust to .

that said, if we are talking ali at his best, the one who was so fast he could barely see him move at times, id think he'd be able to settle in and make fury look slow and bumbling, even though for a giant fury is relatively quick and well moving - for a giant though . but for sure ali could get marked up, lose rounds , etc. that happens all the time in fights, even when you're the better guy

as said before, ali wasnt exactly tiny either, 6'3 and was still in good shape around 225. there is a big difference between him and the likes of jack johnson, dempsey, marciano, etc. who were either barely 6 feet or under, had much shorter reaches, and regularly weighed in the 180s or low 190s.....basically the size of current light heavies