If Carlos Monzon had moved up to light-heavyweight during 1974 to 1977?

[HomicideHenry]

The only thing that can be done is to possibly look at newspaper archives to see what reporters had to say:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 7379&hl=en

The Associated Press reported: "The outcome of the 10-round bout on Saturday night in Missoula was clouded when Franklin's manager, Frank Gelb, tried to inspect the scorecards and discovered no one from the Athletic Board was left in the arena. The board's secretary declared it a no decision."

3 months earlier MSM beat Camel by split decision. I can believe that Camel won, simply on the basis of how close the first fight was anyways in California and Camel dropped MSM in that fight. Tough matches back-to-back, I can see somebody flipping the script in the return that soon.

[HomicideHenry]

Mind you, I'm aware that Marvin Camel was good but not the goods. Still, the Mate Parlov bouts and the first Carlos DeLeon fight shows that he certainly had enough skills and abilities to have fought those top 175 pounders if he wanted to--- even if he would have been on the losing end.

Yeah, there's some truth to what you're saying. I more or less agree. Camel probably had the goods to remain in the 175 lbs division and make his mark among the highly rated contenders of the early 1980s.

But regarding the Parlov fights, I don't know if they tell us anything meaningful about Camel's abilities. That's because the cruiserweight version of Parlov was a slower, more sluggish version of the fighter he had been when he was a light-heavyweight. I remember Parlov's cruiserweight match against Tony Mundine was televised, and the announcers (Angelo Dundee and Gil Clancy?) saying that Mate looked subpar, not as good as he previously had been.

As for Parlov, the gold standard for measuring his abilities is his 1978 wins over Miguel Cuello and John Conteh. That was Parlov at his peak. After that, Mate's performance level plummeted, starting with his KO defeat to Marvin Johnson, a fight in which he had to drop a lot of weight in the two weeks prior to the bout.

What a difference a year makes.

December 1978 loses to Marvin Johnson for the WBC LHW strap, and December 1979 has a split decision majority draw with Camel, only to lose a unanimous decision to Camel three months later.

Looking at the RING magazine ratings for LHW's in 1978-1979 Mate Parlov was #6 in the world according to the March 1979 issue:

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_ ... ings:_1978

At the time RING magazine didn't recognize the cruiserweight division, etc--- but it would have been interesting to have seen the ratings for the WBA & WBC 175-pound division into 1979.

Considering how highly ranked Parlov was even by March 1979 at 175, it is a bit mind-blowing that Marvin Camel didn't try to parlay that into a two-division showdown with Johnson or MSM who was the 175-pound champion according to the March 1980 issue:

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_ ... ings:_1979

Considering the two men's history a rubber match would have been an easy sell one would think.

[HomicideHenry]

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 7379&hl=en

I couldn't find the part that described the Camel-Franklin fight. Which page is it on?

Page 25

[HomicideHenry]

He probably couldn't make 175 anymore, but...

I always think back to Leonard vs Lalond, where two different titles were on the line in a catch weight situation. Besides, this was still the era where non-title matches occurred in between title matches, so I think something could've been pulled off even if nothing was on the line.

One problem Camel seemed to have throughout his career was a tendency to get cut. In 1984 he was ahead on the cards against Roy Lee Murphy (20-0-0) for the IBF cruiserweight title and the fight got stopped due to cut in the 14th round.

I can only imagine the heartbreak on that night. It was basically the last great performance of his career though he would continue to fight into 1990 against heavyweights like Joe Hipp.

But yeah, I love these what if scenarios that could have happened. While I hope the bridgerweight division never happens, could you imagine someone winning the first title and potentially going after the cruiserweight or heavyweight championship because you're in this goldilocks position where you can potentially be ranked in three different weight classes.

[Ambling Alp II]

I remember hearing the claim that Carlos Monzon had knocked out Joe Frazier during a sparring session.
Anyone know if and when they had sparred ?
This could be true on the account that Frazier had bad cataracts and had to wear a contact lense to see in a fight
particularly before his second fight with George Foreman in 1976.

I cannot possibly believe that Monzon floored or KO'd Joe Frazier in a sparring session. Impossible. What is the source of this information? I'd like to check it out.

Also, I cannot imagine any fighter wearing a contact lens while fighting. The lens would be knocked beneath the fighter's eyelids. Possibly it would get embedded deep in the eye socket, where it could cause damage.

I don’t believe the flooring/KO story.

I absolutely believe the contact lens story. My recollection is that Frazier had contacts in the second Foreman fight.

He’s not alone. Larry Holmes did the same thing in his title fight against Evander Holyfield. Probably not the best idea.

You should always believe sparring stories. They are always true. Interesting that something dramatic always happened. It's never "two guys sparred for three rounds Nothing of note happened."

Frazier did supposedly wear contacts against Foreman. At least he claimed to have.

[Caractacus]

yeah, it does seem a bit silly thinking that Tony Licata could have floored Joe FRazier even with his best right hand right
on the button even if Joe Frazier didn't see it coming.
But what if Carlos Monzon had been invited to Joe Fraziers gym after the Licata fight ?
Monzon would have had about a 6 week visa to stay in the USA
Maybe he had a week left to tour the USA in June 1975 ?

[Caractacus]

maybe someone should ask Vito Antefermo the next time they interview him ?
Because he appears to be the source.

[Monzon83]

Some good footage of Carlos here.

[Caractacus]

what if Carlos Monzon fought up to 1979 ?
( if they had figured a way for his right hand to stop hurting of course)
( and retiring at age 36 years just before his 37th birthday in August)
How would he have done against Antefermo, Hagler and Minter
challenging for the title ?

[elmersalsa]

what if Carlos Monzon fought up to 1979 ?
( if they had figured a way for his right hand to stop hurting of course)
( and retiring at age 36 years just before his 37th birthday in August)
How would he have done against Antefermo, Hagler and Minter
challenging for the title ?

King Carlos probably would have lost to all three. Maybe beat Vito Antuofermo and Alan Minter, but not looking good on his performance.

[Caractacus]

yeah, Monzon was smart, getting out of the game at age 35 is what Psychologist call "the beginning of early Middle age".
I think there was an earlier thread of famous fighters who fought beyond age 35.
It didn't look good for any of them.