Thoughts on KID NORFOLK

barry
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Post by barry »

A couple of years ago...hell, a few months ago you said you had never done any microfilm research and you come on a couple of days ago and say that now you don't read books any more and that you have started to only do microfilm research and sound clearly like you have just found out how neat it really is. Not to mention that you have never mentioned it until this post...seems very odd to me!

You plainly have said that you not only have never done any microfilm research, but that you wouldn't waste your time with it because it is too time consuming! Don't you have a clue as to what you have said in the past year?

Somehow I sort of expected that you would take the new found microfilm research that you have discovered and try to pretend like you have been doing it for years...if only you would not have stated otherwise you might have got away with it!!!

And remember...whenever someone else is having a go at me in a thread that has nothing to do with you...you would do a lot better to just mind your own business instead of trying to join in with them...I can tear you a new one without any real effort...you do all the work yourself...all I have to do is pay attention and just put what you say together...as was just demonstrated.

When a person does not speak truth and stay honest he, or she often forgets what it is that they have said in the past, which leads to the person having to make up more tales to try any cover the things they are busted in. A person can never go wrong with plain and simple honesty!!! :TU:
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Post by BoxBuzz »

barry sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I dont but I have never doubted your obsession for research and/or your work ethic regardless of your conclusions based on that very research. And for the record I typically agree with your conclusions.

As far as the simple honesty goes it's not the cure all for every ill.

For example......a person you don't know all that well walks into where ever you happen to be and he is wearing a very ugly hat. Some might feel that there is no reason on earth to share this "truth" or "fact" if you will, with this unknown person. But if driven by the "honesty first theory" one might feel compelled to speak right up and tell them...."sir that's a mighty ugly hat your wearing". You have now fullfilled your committment to honesty and as a result you have disturbed the peace, possibly provoked a fight maybe hurt someone's sensitivities and for what earthly purpose?

It's quite possible that the man had an even uglier head hidden underneath said hat.

Just a thought.
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Post by barry »

>>>No, my original statement was, "I haven't done much real research. I did microfilm research on the Murderer's Row fighters." I've been saying the same thing all along.<<<

Funny, the only source I have ever heard you mentiuon was Harry Otty's book...coincidence?

>>>For a so-called "researcher," you sure don't read well. A few days ago, I said that I don't read boxing books anymore because I'm more interested in primary sources, like newspaper reports.<<<

As I commended!

>>>Show me where I supposedly said I never did any microfilm research. Here are my actual quotes:<<<

You have said a lot of dumb shit in the past...the fact that you have never mentioned any of the supposed microfilm research that you have done in any of your debates speaks pretty loud, as I said, the only sourcfe I have ever really seen you use is Harry's book, which is hjis research...not your research, but you pretty much show your inaccuracies in the post you presented...you stated that the only real research you have done was on Cali middleweights of the 40s, which that is what Harry's book is all about. If anyone was actually interested in you they could do a search...but most already know that you are not to solid in boxing knowledge, so why bother...after all...you'll just say something else a few months later and then try to pretned otherwise!


>>>For example......a person you don't know all that well walks into where ever you happen to be and he is wearing a very ugly hat. Some might feel that there is no reason on earth to share this "truth" or "fact" if you will, with this unknown person. But if driven by the "honesty first theory" one might feel compelled to speak right up and tell them...."sir that's a mighty ugly hat your wearing". You have now fullfilled your committment to honesty and as a result you have disturbed the peace, possibly provoked a fight maybe hurt someone's sensitivities and for what earthly purpose?<<<

Well that would be more so polite and decent to refrain from hurting someones feelings about something they are wearing I would think...though I have one...

If I were at a club trying to hit of women and a person came up and said, damn bro...you're breath smells like shit...I would be very greatful for the person letting me know and I would then go about correcting the problem with a mint, or something simliar...I wouldn't just pretend that what the person said was wrong and I was right just for the sake of being right! I would go about correcting the problem and would not go about making it worse by eating an onion, or handful of garlic.
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Re: re

Post by RowanSmith »

barry wrote:When is the next volume of your series on early Black fighters going to be out?

For anyone who don't know, Rowan(Kevin)Smith wrote the "Black Genesis: The History of the Black Prizefighter 1760-1870" which is the best book that I have read on the topic and era. I'm really anticipating and looking forward to the next volume as it will be covering one of my more favorite time periods of boxing history. What are the particulars of this next volume Kevin? I would imagine that Kid Norfolk will be covered in the next volume and if not in it then in the third volume.

If you guys have not read the first volume then I strongly recommend that you pick up a copy as it is an excellent and accurate read and it is honestly and truly one of the most important volumes ever written on boxing.

The series of 5 books about Black fighters written by Nat Fleischer was pretty good, but the volumes are full of inaccuracies and the series of books written by Arthur Ashe about Black Athletes which has a volume on Black fighters was ambitious, but not researched as good as it could and should have been, but that is not the case with Kevin's book...I know it has been greatly researched and a lot of the inaccuracies of before have been corrected by Kevin, but there is so much more to the book than that and it is just simply one of the best books ever written on the Black Athlete and I'm sure that the next volumes will be just as good!

Anyway, I just wanted to drop that info in as I am certain that any fan of Kid Norfolk, or of boxing history would not only really enjoy the book, but they will gain a great deal of knowledge from it as well.
Barry, thanks for your very, very kind words. The first part of volume 2(which comes in at about 800 pages) will be out soon. It was due July 1 but some formatting issues have delayed it considerably. I am working on getting it out as soon as possible, hopefully within the next month.
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Post by barry »

All I have did is go by what you have said...you can try to make things up to try an cover the things you have said in the past, but that's the problem...you have said so much bullshit in the past that you really have no idea what you have said, so you now make contradicting statements...as you have over the past couple of days...besides...with all the silly comments that you make it's not hard for people to see that you don't know what you are talking about. But as I said earlier...if you just continue to follow my direction about how to research then in a couple of years you'll no longer be making comments that show you little to non idea as to what you are talking about...and honestly, I really want to see that day come!
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Post by RowanSmith »

granberry wrote:Barry,

The sections in the Nat Fleischer Black Dynamite Series are almost completely reprints of material that had appeared in the Police Gazette years earlier.

I have the imprssion that Fleischer must have bought or somehow acquired the original material from the earlier Police Gazette and used it.

Books written with an agenda, such as the current politically correct "Black good, White bad," are always of doubtful value.
Everything is written with an agenda--everything. Could you give me an idea of some of the books you are referring to in the above statement?
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Post by granberry »

All of the Ken Burns crap.
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Post by KOJOE90 »

granberry wrote:All of the Ken Burns crap.
Just out of interest what Boxing books, writers etc would you recommend?
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Re: re

Post by JC »

KOJOE90 wrote:
barry wrote:I have to say that it is very encouraging the hear that he is going the correct route of research as old newspaper research and other primary sources are the best kind of research a person can do on boxing!
Now that I live in Leicester I really need to do the same. It has a good history of Boxing does Leicester although the sport is dead hear now. :( I will have to join the local library.

I think I may start with Tony Sibson.
Joe if you do any research on Len Wickwar, who I believe was from Leicester, I'd be very interested to hear what kind of fighter he was. Anyone with 337 wins from 465 bouts must have had something about him.

I often get fustrated with books and internet sources which describe a fighter's life and career with no explaination of their fighting style.
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Post by granberry »

KOJOE90 wrote:
granberry wrote:All of the Ken Burns crap.
Just out of interest what Boxing books, writers etc would you recommend?
Something written by someone who was COMPETENT on the subject.

Although I did hear that Ken Burns once had a fight with his own sister.

.
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Post by RowanSmith »

granberry wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:
granberry wrote:All of the Ken Burns crap.
Just out of interest what Boxing books, writers etc would you recommend?
Something written by someone who was COMPETENT on the subject.

Although I did hear that Ken Burns once had a fight with his own sister.

.
If you are referring to Unforgiveable Blackness--well Ken Burns did not write it--Geoff Ward did.
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Post by granberry »

Geoffrey Ward is described as Ken Burns' co-author on a number of ("politically correct") projects.
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Post by granberry »

Here is a good example of the falseness and duplicity that Ken Burns and his kind will resort to in order to push their agenda.

(in this case Ken Burns’ “coauthor” Geoffrey Ward )

Here is a quote from Geoffrey Ward’s UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS---The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson: Knopf NY: 2004

Page 54

“Johnson was a fellow that used to stand flat-footed and wait for you to come in,” one battered sparring partner remembered. “And when you came in, he’d rip the head off you with uppercuts, cut you all to pieces.”

Propagandist Geoffrey Ward quotes these exact words from Gunboat Smith,

without identifying Smith and COMPLETELY FALSIFYING what Gunboat Smith actually said by taking his words completely out of context.

in order to sell Jack Johnson.


What Gunboat Smith actually said about his own sparring with Jack Johnson was:

From IN THIS CORNER, by Peter Heller, Simon and Schuster NY: 1973

Pages 39-40

I worked with Jack Johnson. I was a sailor at the time. I trained in the Seal Rock House with him when he fought Stanley Ketchel. . . .From where he was training I had to get on a streetcar and go over across to the Seal Rock House. That afternoon I boxed with Stanley Ketchel for a few rounds, then at four o’clock I got over to the Seal Rock House and Jack Johnson put on the gloves, and that’s where they began to think I was something because I hit Jack Johnson on the chin and knocked him through the ropes and damn near out of the Seal Rock House. Johnson never did get over that. When he come back to New York he said, “They got a fellow out there, my God, he’ll knock a brick wall down!”—meaning me.

LATER in the same chapter (pages 41-42)

Gunboat Smith discusses the Johnson Willard fight:

Now, that fight with Jess Willard, that was on the level. Don’t let anybody tell you it was a fixed fight in Havana. Well, you can take my word for it, it was not a fixed fight. In the first place, Jack Johnson could not hit like I could, and he hit Willard with everything. But Johnson was a fellow that used to stand flat-footed and wait for you to come in. And when you came in, he’d rip the head off you with uppercuts, cut you all to pieces. That’s the way he fought. Jess Willard was the same way. One out-waited the other. . . .

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The duplicity Ken Burns' partner Geoffrey Ward displays here is disgusting.
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Post by Ezzard »

granberry

This is an interesting observation. On one hand there is no readon for Ward to use the paragraph from 39-40 if he doesn't want to. I mean, he's trying to construct an argument of some kind and he'll take what suits him. BUT what is odd is that he doesn't quote Smith by name as his name obviously adds a lot of weight to the comment and generates more interest from boxing fans. So why does he fail to quote Smith directly? This makes me think that you're right, something does not quite ring true.

I take it you don't rate this book?

What are your feelings on Johnson?

Why do you feel that Ward is portrayiong Johnson in this way (is this soemthing to do with the 'politically correct' comment you made previously?

Do you reccomend the book?

I'm interested in your reply as I was going to buy a copy and take it on holiday with me in 2 weeks time...
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Post by barry »

A few books that I would suggest, which you simply can not go wrong with by reading, though there are only a few biographies:



Anderson, Dave………………..Sugar Ray (Robinson)
Armstrong, Henry………………..Gloves, Glory and God
Bodner, Allen………………..When Boxing Was A Jewish Sport
Brailsford, Dennis ………………..Bareknuckles: A Social History of Prize-Fighting
Brown, Gene (Editor) ……………….. The Complete Book of Boxing: A New York Times Scrapbook History
Collins, Nigel………………..Boxing Babylon: Behind the Shadowy World of the Prize Ring
Farnol, Jeffrey………………..Famous Prize Fights
Fleischer, Nat……………….Black Dynamite: Story of the Negro in Boxing (5 Volumes)
Fleischer, Nat……………..50 Years At Ringside
Fleischer, Nat………………..The Heavyweight Championship: An Informal History
Fox, Charles………………..Famous Fights in the Prize Ring
Golesworthy, Maurice………………..The Encyclopedia of Boxing
Graziano, Rocky………………..Somebody Up There Likes Me
Hartley, R.A. ………………..History & Bibliography of Boxing Books
Henning, Fred………………..Fights For the Championship: The Men and Their Times
Liebling, A.J. ………………..The Sweet Science
Lindsay, Andrew………………..Boxing in Black and White: A Statistical Study of Race in the Ring
Moore, Archie………………..The Archie Moore Story
Morgan, Dan………………..Dumb Dan
Mullan, Harry………………..The Great Book of Boxing
Odd, Gilbert………………..The Encyclopedia of Boxing (Revised Edition)
Odd, Gilbert………………..Great Moments in Sports: Heavyweight Boxing
Odd, Gilbert………………..Great Moments in Sports: Cruisers to Mighty Atoms
Rickard, Mrs. Tex ………………..Everything Happened To Him
Roberts, James………………..The Boxing Register: IBHOF Record Book
Rose, Charlie………………..Life’s A Knockout
Sammons, Jeffrey T. ………………..Beyond the Ring: The Role of Boxing in American Society
Smith, Kevin………………..Black Genesis: The History of the Black Prizefighter 1760-1870
Unterharnscheidt, Fried………………..Boxing: Medical Aspects
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Post by Ezzard »

Thanks Barry

I've read about half of them, so I'll keep an eye open for the other half.

I am really interested in Johnson, his reported criminal activities, his brothel(s), his mental breakdown and the details of his life.
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Post by granberry »

Ezzard wrote:granberry

This is an interesting observation. On one hand there is no readon for Ward to use the paragraph from 39-40 if he doesn't want to. I mean, he's trying to construct an argument of some kind and he'll take what suits him. BUT what is odd is that he doesn't quote Smith by name as his name obviously adds a lot of weight to the comment and generates more interest from boxing fans. So why does he fail to quote Smith directly? This makes me think that you're right, something does not quite ring true.

I take it you don't rate this book?

What are your feelings on Johnson?

Why do you feel that Ward is portraying Johnson in this way (is this soemthing to do with the 'politically correct' comment you made previously?

Do you reccomend the book?

I'm interested in your reply as I was going to buy a copy and take it on holiday with me in 2 weeks time...
Do you reccomend the book?

I recommend it highly as an example of a book written to SELL AN AGENDA.

What are your feelings on Johnson?

I have no "feelings" on Johnson.

I have two eyes and I watch films of him (when I do).

Johnson was a counter puncher. Everything he did was based on that.

Willard made Johnson lead. In doing that, Willard controlled their fight.

And Johnson did not have the punch to finish Willard, although he tried hard.

Johnson was stupid to allow the fight to be set for 45 rounds.

Johnson's reign as heavyweight champion is tainted by his refusal to defend his title against Sam Langford.

As part of their transparent agenda (Black is good---White is bad) the Johnnie-come-lately’s who have no interest in boxing (and of course no competence when it comes to boxing) push their Black is good---White is bad politically correct agenda by repeating repetitively that that Dempsey didn't fight Wills

But the same phony self-proclaimed "authorities" never mention that Johnson embarrassed himself as champion by refusing to get in the ring with by far the most dangerous threat to his keeping his title---Sam Langford.

(not to mention Jeannette and McVey).

Johnson’s fights with Ketchel and Jeffries are of no significance as far as determining his ability.

Ketchel was a middleweight (That’s why they have weight classes in boxing).

Jeffries was a washed up physical specimen who hadn't fought for 6 years and had to lose almost 100 pounds, had no warmup fights to determine if he could even beat a mediocre heavyweight at that point in time, and did almost no sparring (and most of it against long retired Corbett and Choynsky and his own brother Jack---all LONG inactive).

The fact that it took 15 rounds for a Johnson in his prime to beat the shell of Jeffries illustrates two things :

1—Johnson was not a puncher.

2---the remarkable physical specimen that Jeffries was to stay that long even in the decrepit state he was in for boxing at that time.

Johnson at his best was a top level defensive fighter who threw his most effective punches inside.
He couldn’t do that against Willard since Willard was too tall for Johnson to hit with uppercuts

And Willard was too strong in comparison to Johnson and controlled Johnson in the clinches.

Johnson tried very hard to stop Willard by doing all the leading for the first 5-10-15 rounds but he was not successful at breaking down Willard although he won most of the rounds up to that point.

Johnson did not look great against Frank Moran, who was a dangerous puncher and a strong sturdy physical specimen.


Overall, Johnson's avoidance of Sam Langford harms his standing as a heavyweight champion.
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Post by KOJOE90 »

granberry wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:
granberry wrote:All of the Ken Burns crap.
Just out of interest what Boxing books, writers etc would you recommend?
Something written by someone who was COMPETENT on the subject.
Who would you class as a competent writer?
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Post by RowanSmith »

granberry wrote:
Ezzard wrote:granberry

This is an interesting observation. On one hand there is no readon for Ward to use the paragraph from 39-40 if he doesn't want to. I mean, he's trying to construct an argument of some kind and he'll take what suits him. BUT what is odd is that he doesn't quote Smith by name as his name obviously adds a lot of weight to the comment and generates more interest from boxing fans. So why does he fail to quote Smith directly? This makes me think that you're right, something does not quite ring true.

I take it you don't rate this book?

What are your feelings on Johnson?

Why do you feel that Ward is portraying Johnson in this way (is this soemthing to do with the 'politically correct' comment you made previously?

Do you reccomend the book?

I'm interested in your reply as I was going to buy a copy and take it on holiday with me in 2 weeks time...
Do you reccomend the book?

I recommend it highly as an example of a book written to SELL AN AGENDA.

What are your feelings on Johnson?

I have no "feelings" on Johnson.

I have two eyes and I watch films of him (when I do).

Johnson was a counter puncher. Everything he did was based on that.

Willard made Johnson lead. In doing that, Willard controlled their fight.

And Johnson did not have the punch to finish Willard, although he tried hard.

Johnson was stupid to allow the fight to be set for 45 rounds.

Johnson's reign as heavyweight champion is tainted by his refusal to defend his title against Sam Langford.

As part of their transparent agenda (Black is good---White is bad) the Johnnie-come-lately’s who have no interest in boxing (and of course no competence when it comes to boxing) push their Black is good---White is bad politically correct agenda by repeating repetitively that that Dempsey didn't fight Wills

But the same phony self-proclaimed "authorities" never mention that Johnson embarrassed himself as champion by refusing to get in the ring with by far the most dangerous threat to his keeping his title---Sam Langford.

(not to mention Jeannette and McVey).

Johnson’s fights with Ketchel and Jeffries are of no significance as far as determining his ability.

Ketchel was a middleweight (That’s why they have weight classes in boxing).

Jeffries was a washed up physical specimen who hadn't fought for 6 years and had to lose almost 100 pounds, had no warmup fights to determine if he could even beat a mediocre heavyweight at that point in time, and did almost no sparring (and most of it against long retired Corbett and Choynsky and his own brother Jack---all LONG inactive).

The fact that it took 15 rounds for a Johnson in his prime to beat the shell of Jeffries illustrates two things :

1—Johnson was not a puncher.

2---the remarkable physical specimen that Jeffries was to stay that long even in the decrepit state he was in for boxing at that time.

Johnson at his best was a top level defensive fighter who threw his most effective punches inside.
He couldn’t do that against Willard since Willard was too tall for Johnson to hit with uppercuts

And Willard was too strong in comparison to Johnson and controlled Johnson in the clinches.

Johnson tried very hard to stop Willard by doing all the leading for the first 5-10-15 rounds but he was not successful at breaking down Willard although he won most of the rounds up to that point.

Johnson did not look great against Frank Moran, who was a dangerous puncher and a strong sturdy physical specimen.Overall, Johnson's avoidance of Sam Langford harms his standing as a heavyweight champion.


Wow talk about an agenda! Take any biography on a boxer and I will show you similar use of sources as to the one used above in the Johnson bio. Roger Kahn's Dempsey biography is like a love letter it is so enamored with the champ.
Your assessment of Johnson is lacking in that you fail to mention that the difference between Dempsey and Johnson was that Johnson had already fought, and beat, the men he was avoiding during his reign. I make no excuses for Johnson's ducking of Langford--he did during his reign, but you seem, in a round about way, to be excusing Dempsey--or defending him in the least, for him not fighting Wills. Go read any Dempsey biography and you will see how Wills is glossed over with quotes like, "he was made for Dempsey", "Dempsey wanted the fight", yadda, yadda, yadda. The point here is what I stated above, every book has an agenda, and so too does every writer. To me your attempt at turning the above example into some sort of Jack Johnson conspiracy is ridiculous.
Tell us your thoughts on Dempsey, his reign and the biographies written about him?
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Post by granberry »

RowanSmith wrote:
Wow talk about an agenda! Take any biography on a boxer and I will show you similar use of sources as to the one used above in the Johnson bio. Roger Kahn's Dempsey biography is like a love letter it is so enamored with the champ.
Your assessment of Johnson is lacking in that you fail to mention that the difference between Dempsey and Johnson was that Johnson had already fought, and beat, the men he was avoiding during his reign. I make no excuses for Johnson's ducking of Langford--he did during his reign, but you seem, in a round about way, to be excusing Dempsey--or defending him in the least, for him not fighting Wills. Go read any Dempsey biography and you will see how Wills is glossed over with quotes like, "he was made for Dempsey", "Dempsey wanted the fight", yadda, yadda, yadda. The point here is what I stated above, every book has an agenda, and so too does every writer. To me your attempt at turning the above example into some sort of Jack Johnson conspiracy is ridiculous.
Tell us your thoughts on Dempsey, his reign and the biographies written about him?
Langford weighed 156 pounds when Johnson fought him.

The Sam Langford whom Jack Johnson embarrassed himself and his heavyweight championship by refusing to fight was no longer a middleweight.

Certainly your "research" let you in on that basic information.

Or didn't it ?

Jack Johnson hid from his most dangerous contenders while he held his title.

That is disgraceful.

Roger Kahn is a baseball writer. He writes that Philadelphia Jack O'Brien was "lightweight champion."

He writes more than once that Sugar Ray Robinson "hammered Jake LaMotta to the canvas."

Kahn apparently likes the sound of that phrase, but any 6-year-old interested in boxing would know that LaMotta was never knocked off his feet as a middleweight.

In fact it was LaMotta who hammered Robinson to the canvas in two of their fights.

Kahn is an incompetent boob when it comes to boxing.
His publisher couldn't even hire a junior high school student to check his book so that he could at least get fighters he pontificates on in the right weight classes.

Rowan, it sounds to me like you think boxing is a popularity contest decided by people like Ken Burns and Roger Kahn----people who have the media connections to get their crap out to the public even though they never had a fight with their own sister.

I have no interest in anything about Dempsey except WHAT I CAN SEE in the films of him.

There are many films of Dempsey hitting the bag, sparring etc. I can learn a lot from those.

I only skim over the so-called "biographies" (written by "experts" who never had a fight out on the playground at school)

if I want to waste my time and snicker at the incompetence that passes for "expertise" in today's politically correct media.

After Willard lost to Dempsey he said that he was not happy to lose his title but that "He [Dempsey] is the hardest puncher I have faced."

The same Jess Willard who fought (and was hit a lot by) Jack Johnson for 26 rounds.

It sound to me like boxing "expertise" (as far as the media know it) today consists of a women's club who express their "feelings" about the subject of "boxing."

That is as close as they will ever get to it.
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Post by RowanSmith »

Langford weighed 156 pounds when Johnson fought him.
Yeah and.............
The Sam Langford whom Jack Johnson embarrassed himself and his heavyweight championship by refusing to fight was no longer a middleweight.
OK and............
Certainly your "research" let you in on that basic information.
It did
Or didn't it ?
No, it did
Jack Johnson hid from his most dangerous contenders while he held his title.


I guess you skimmed over my post because I was not debating whether or not Johnson ducked Langford--go back and read it. And I find it no more disgraceful than Dempsey ducking Wills---It is difficult to tell from your above rant whether or not you are arguing that fact or just glossing over it completely. This trait Jack Johnson had in common with many champions--Dempsey included.
That is disgraceful.
Strong language. Do you find it as shameful that Dempsey never fought Wills?
Roger Kahn is a baseball writer. He writes that Philadelphia Jack O'Brien was "lightweight champion." He writes more than once that Sugar Ray Robinson "hammered Jake LaMotta to the canvas." Kahn apparently likes the sound of that phrase, but any 6-year-old interested in boxing would know that LaMotta was never knocked off his feet as a middleweight. In fact it was LaMotta who hammered Robinson to the canvas in two of their fights. Kahn is an incompetent boob when it comes to boxing.
His publisher couldn't even hire a junior high school student to check his book so that he could at least get fighters he pontificates on in the right weight classes.
Thanks for the assesment of Kahn. I wonder, how many books have you written? You seem to be an expert, not only on all things boxing but writing and editing as well.
Rowan, it sounds to me like you think boxing is a popularity contest decided by people like Ken Burns and Roger Kahn----people who have the media connections to get their crap out to the public even though they never had a fight with their own sister.
Not sure what you mean? Did you read my post? Try again and see if you come up with the main point. I mentioned very little, in fact, nothing, about popularity.
I have no interest in anything about Dempsey except WHAT I CAN SEE in the films of him.
OK--then we won't be hearing you pontificate on his career. That's good.
There are many films of Dempsey hitting the bag, sparring etc. I can learn a lot from those.
Good.
I only skim over the so-called "biographies" (written by "experts" who never had a fight out on the playground at school)
I don't get it. If you only skim through them--how do you know that they all stink, or are no good? Are you that well versed? And does someone have to have been a boxer to write about boxing?
if I want to waste my time and snicker at the incompetence that passes for "expertise" in today's politically correct media.
Yes..............then..........?
After Willard lost to Dempsey he said that he was not happy to lose his title but that "He [Dempsey] is the hardest puncher I have faced." The same Jess Willard who fought (and was hit a lot by) Jack Johnson for 26 rounds.
Did you see and hear those quotes on the the film YOU SAW? Not sure what this has to do with what we are talking about, however, I smell a Dempsey fan dripping from that little blurb you wrote there.

It sound to me like boxing "expertise" (as far as the media know it) today consists of a women's club who express their "feelings" about the subject of "boxing." That is as close as they will ever get to it.
I gather from this that you were/are a fighter and that you think only fighter's should write about fighting? So again, what have you written lately that might interest us here on the board?
Collins2000
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Post by Collins2000 »

RowanSmith wrote:
Langford weighed 156 pounds when Johnson fought him.
Yeah and.............
The Sam Langford whom Jack Johnson embarrassed himself and his heavyweight championship by refusing to fight was no longer a middleweight.
OK and............
Certainly your "research" let you in on that basic information.
It did
Or didn't it ?
No, it did
Jack Johnson hid from his most dangerous contenders while he held his title.


I guess you skimmed over my post because I was not debating whether or not Johnson ducked Langford--go back and read it. And I find it no more disgraceful than Dempsey ducking Wills---It is difficult to tell from your above rant whether or not you are arguing that fact or just glossing over it completely. This trait Jack Johnson had in common with many champions--Dempsey included.
That is disgraceful.
Strong language. Do you find it as shameful that Dempsey never fought Wills?
Roger Kahn is a baseball writer. He writes that Philadelphia Jack O'Brien was "lightweight champion." He writes more than once that Sugar Ray Robinson "hammered Jake LaMotta to the canvas." Kahn apparently likes the sound of that phrase, but any 6-year-old interested in boxing would know that LaMotta was never knocked off his feet as a middleweight. In fact it was LaMotta who hammered Robinson to the canvas in two of their fights. Kahn is an incompetent boob when it comes to boxing.
His publisher couldn't even hire a junior high school student to check his book so that he could at least get fighters he pontificates on in the right weight classes.
Thanks for the assesment of Kahn. I wonder, how many books have you written? You seem to be an expert, not only on all things boxing but writing and editing as well.
Rowan, it sounds to me like you think boxing is a popularity contest decided by people like Ken Burns and Roger Kahn----people who have the media connections to get their crap out to the public even though they never had a fight with their own sister.
Not sure what you mean? Did you read my post? Try again and see if you come up with the main point. I mentioned very little, in fact, nothing, about popularity.
I have no interest in anything about Dempsey except WHAT I CAN SEE in the films of him.
OK--then we won't be hearing you pontificate on his career. That's good.
There are many films of Dempsey hitting the bag, sparring etc. I can learn a lot from those.
Good.
I only skim over the so-called "biographies" (written by "experts" who never had a fight out on the playground at school)
I don't get it. If you only skim through them--how do you know that they all stink, or are no good? Are you that well versed? And does someone have to have been a boxer to write about boxing?
if I want to waste my time and snicker at the incompetence that passes for "expertise" in today's politically correct media.
Yes..............then..........?
After Willard lost to Dempsey he said that he was not happy to lose his title but that "He [Dempsey] is the hardest puncher I have faced." The same Jess Willard who fought (and was hit a lot by) Jack Johnson for 26 rounds.
Did you see and hear those quotes on the the film YOU SAW? Not sure what this has to do with what we are talking about, however, I smell a Dempsey fan dripping from that little blurb you wrote there.

It sound to me like boxing "expertise" (as far as the media know it) today consists of a women's club who express their "feelings" about the subject of "boxing." That is as close as they will ever get to it.
I gather from this that you were/are a fighter and that you think only fighter's should write about fighting? So again, what have you written lately that might interest us here on the board?

Brilliant!
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Post by granberry »

RowanSmith wrote:
I smell a Dempsey fan dripping from that little blurb you wrote there.
Rowan, I smell a petty, clique minded mentality (or lack of mentality) emanating from your above quote.

AS I SAID, to some, "boxing" is a popularity contest decided by those who belong to various laughable cliques who HATE one or more fighters and just LOVE certain others.

When you get in the ring, your clique (and your petty emotional reactions) can't help you.

I find it hilarious that those with the feminine "clique" mentality attach themselves to boxing, of all topics.

Why not attach yourself to one of several women's flower arranging clubs

and then expound eagerly on why you won't invite any of the members of a certain other club to your tea parties.

Your petty clique-oriented mentality has NOTHING to do with boxing.

.
Collins2000
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Post by Collins2000 »

Decagon wrote:To be fair, some of the best minds in boxing have made errors in books. Look at Bert Sugar's story of Pep-Graves, or Angelo Dundee furthering the Henry Cooper myth.
Dundee has a great boxing mind and a lot of first hand information to impart. I'm surprised he continues to perpetuate the myth about how much time he bought Ali in the first Cooper fight. Maybe he has 'dined out' on that story so often that he feels he can't backtrack now.

Bert Sugar has no great boxing mind in my opinion. He just regurgitates old stories he has picked up over the years. I've yet to hear him say anything insightful or even new about the fight game.
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Post by BrocktonBlockbuster49 »

i had my chance in a rocky marciano-ali event in january to put sugar on the spot in front of the whole crowd! sugar was debating and they were allowing the crowd to ask questions. sugar made a couple huge mistakes and put down marcianos opposition(right in front of his brother). i was heated by all the mistakes he was making and more so i was heated that he belittled marcianos opponents and era. so i waited next in line ready to ask a question and counter berts statements, correct his mistakes. i had sources all in my head ready to back up my case. i wasnt embarrased nor was i scared. rowan smith was there, in fact he was sitting right behind me.


well after the guy in front of me asked the question, the announcer said "no more questions allowed". i was really bummed, i had my chance but missed out. i really wanted to ask my questions and refute one of berts statements.


i later told peter marciano that i was pissed when sugar bashed marcianos opposition and that i wanted to really give it to him and peter replied "i know it. i wanted to call u up here when he said that so that u could prove him wrong."

* u see earlier that night i met peter and talked with him and then finally i showed him all my knowledge i knew about rocky and he said "ur unbeliavable, u know more about rocky than anyone i know" and he kinda took me under his wing that night and actually called me over from across the room to meet the marciano family and introduced me to them and let me sit down and eat with them for a little while. I was so honored.


well at only a green age of 18 years old, i lost my chance to challenge the views of the great bert sugar.:x maybe someday i will get another chance!



later on i did pull bert aside and tried talk to him, and i said hello introduced myself then we went into a boxing convo and i started giving him facts defending my case about one of his points, but he kinda rolled his eyes like "whatever whatever, this kid cant carry my jockstap. i dont have to listen to this." he just didnt want to get into it and he kinda went away.



- he may be a damm good writer, and a great story teller, but when it comes to boxing knowledge i dont think he rates up there.
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