If Plant upsets Canelo, it will be a big shock for you ? Plant looks in very good shape and he's coming to win

[oogiebe]

smith finished his am career boxing at an elite level internationally as a lhw my man, he was a welterweight as a growing teenager. he didnt fight canelo as a f@cking 15 year old

a size head to head basically plays out

height? smith
reach? smith
weight? smith

Why are you responding? The kid is a complete troll.

[margaret thatcher]

true, and on about his 10th account, he'll be zapped soon enough

[apollo creed]

If Canelo will beat Plant, he may be offered to Charlo or Benavidez.

[cormack]

he would have to KO canelo anyway as there seems to be chance of anyone getting a decision .

Do you feel that Canelo regularly “loses” rounds, but the judges always disagree, by wrongly awarding them to Canelo?

In my opinion, the judges scorecards have been reasonable scored for the last four years or so.

just one of those things that sticks in my mind from ggg 1 .
i would agree that canelo has deserved to win everything I have seen recently but none of those fights were in doubt anyway .

[553848]

Ya and luckily in this case there's not a skill gap at all. In fact not only does Plant have the physical advantages he's also faster and definitely has the better technical skillset.

What you REALLY meant to say is that there's a significant EXPERIENCE-gap which is the obvious difference between the two.

Also dont even bring Smith into the conversation. He started out as a WW along with BJS. Those guy arent real SMW's like CP.

BJS doesnt have a single win again a career SMW, including Lee. Caleb Plant started out as a LHW in the am's and has fought SMW's his entire career. There's zero comparison to be made but lets just let your statement speak for itself once things play out.

100%

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

smith finished his am career boxing at an elite level internationally as a lhw my man, he was a welterweight as a growing teenager. he didnt fight canelo as a f@cking 15 year old

a size head to head basically plays out

height? smith
reach? smith
weight? smith

plant's been as low as 159 and no higher than 168. taller, longer cal's never been below 166 and been up to 180, now boxing as a light heavy.

He confused callum and liam

[553848]

callum smith is 6'3, has a 78 inch reach, ended his am career as a light heavy

Everything you said is true but none of it is relevant at all to the debate you're having...


Both BJS and Cal Smith started out as WWs in the ams and in Cal's case that was his division all the way from when he started at age 18 until he won the GB championships at age 21. In the case of BJS that was his division all the way through.

These guys are natural WWs and Caleb is a natural LHW which I think is the obvious point that was made on this topic. LOL.


I included the wiki link for both as to seperate fact from total fabrication. If you scroll on the right side of the page for all 3 it'll tell you exactly that.


BJS: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Joe_Saunders

Cal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callum_Smith

[553848]

BJS doesnt have a single win against a career SMW, including Lee.

Facts.

[caldo2025]

Boxing is known as the “theatre of the unexpected” for a reason, because upsets happen – “that's why they fight the fights!”

Even though Caleb Plant is a world-class operator, he deserves to be considered a big underdog, because his resume is very weak in comparison to Canelo’s.

I think I’d be surprised, rather than “shocked”, to see Plant scoring the upset.

The betting odds for the Canelo-Plant bout are similar to the Pacquiao-Ugas fight.

The betting websites give Plant a slightly better chance to beat Canelo than they gave Chavez Jr.

Personally-speaking, even if Plant beats Canelo, I reckon Yordenis Ugas' victory over Manny Pacquiao would still be favoured to be awarded the upset of the year.

Nah EO. Come on now. Putting odds aside, which obviously helps my point and may be unfair to do in this case, but if Plant is to defeat Canelo then we are talking about an enormous upset unlike we’ve seen since Tyson/Buster.

Or maybe Lewis/Rahman would be a better example. My point is that we’re talking about THE top dog in Boxing. Think about the last 20-30 years and who the P4P guys were. I can’t really come up with an instance in which the top guy lost vs. a solid quality contender. I think that if it should happen, it will clearly be upset of the year and possibly the last decade.

With that said, Plant’s in for a rough night. Unless he’s got the heart of a Lion, Plant just finishing the night on his feet will be very surprising to me. It’s just too much to ask.

So we agree that Caleb Plant beating Canelo would be a significant upset.

But from purely a betting odds perspective, do you think it would technically be a bigger upset than the likes of:

• James Martin vs. Vito Mielnicki
• Sandor Martin vs. Mikey Garcia
• Kenneth Sims Jr. vs. Elvis Rodriguez
• Mauricio Lara vs. Josh Warrington
• Jonathan Rice vs. Michael Coffie
• Jason Cunningham vs. Gamal Yafai

I mean, we’re not talking about opinions here, instead we’re solely focussed on the mathematical betting odds (from simply a numerical value perspective i.e. which numbers are bigger).

The point I’m making is that (based on betting odds) Caleb Plant beating Canelo wouldn’t even be considered the biggest upset of 2021, let alone being regarded as one of the greatest upsets to have ever happened during the entire course of boxing history!

Of course, you’re entitled to disagree, but in order to do that, you’d need to perform some research and find a betting website citing odds that wholly endorses your claims.

But if you can’t, then you really should concede the factual accuracy of my words.

So if an undercard fight in Juarez some Wednesday Night features an upset of a lightly regarded prospect who was favored 60-1 then you would call that fight a bigger upset versus a Plant win?

There’s more to an “upset” than merely looking at the odds and basing it off those numbers alone. Just my opinion. To me, Canelo losing and being outboxed by Plant would be crazy. Canelo getting knocked out in this fight would be almost as shocking as Mike and Buster.

[ironbeard]

Plant KOing Canelo would be more surprising than the Buster Douglas KO of Tyson. Tyson was ripe for an upset v a good bigger HW due to several factors. Canelo has shown no such ripening for upset.

I can see a fairly longshot potential points win for Plant based on his skills and gifts sets and the success BJS was having v Canelo prior to the fight ending sequence.

[apollo creed]

Plant looks in a good shape and he's big and young.

[DrDuke]

Plant KOing Canelo would be more surprising than the Buster Douglas KO of Tyson. Tyson was ripe for an upset v a good bigger HW due to several factors. Canelo has shown no such ripening for upset.

I can see a fairly longshot potential points win for Plant based on his skills and gifts sets and the success BJS was having v Canelo prior to the fight ending sequence.

Well, I don't think so. Plant is stylistically bad for Canelo, judging on Canelo's worst performances against Mayweather and Lara. Of course, Canelo improved since then, but still he has never faced slick fighters of that level since those times. Plant looks fit and motivated, while he brings some obscurity. Tyson seemed invincible before Douglas, while Douglas showed vulnerabilities prior to Tyson. Plant leaves questions to be answered only in the bout itself, while his style can cause problems to Canelo, if it's executed well.

[candyslim]

Plant looks in a good shape and he's big and young.

He's going to need a lot more than that. In answer to the OP it will be a massive shock for me.

BJS doesnt have a single win against a career SMW, including Lee.

Facts.

Guys can I just ask you 'What's with the numerical user-names?' i'm guessing you're not jailbirds or in the forces so I suspect this isn't your choice and isn't coincidence. Will you be able to change if you wanted to?

I asked more than once on the questions for BoxRec thread but got ignored.

[553848]

Plant looks in a good shape and he's big and young.

Its not just that its the skillset combined....Plant started at LHW which typically means LESS technical but in this case he's actually more technical and definitely faster than the stepchild for sure and THAT is what has so many pros picking CP to take this.


Lets go through a list of some of those picking Plant:

Andre Ward
Mayweather Jr.
Chris Arreola
Tim Bradley
Keith Thurman
Terrance Crawford
Robert & Mikey Garcia
Leonard Ellerbe



Not too shabby for CP...

[553848]

Guys can I just ask you 'What's with the numerical user-names?

Your guess is as good as mine...maybe you should PM John and find out for us. Its silly, there's no doubt about that. If you log-in with a google email itll assign you a 'jailbird' number.

[553848]

BJS doesnt have a single win against a career SMW, including Lee.

Facts.

Guys can I just ask you 'What's with the numerical user-names?

Having a numerical user ID thankfully doesnt change facts though. The quote you tagged in this thread is still 100% accurate about BJS.

[ironbeard]

Plant KOing Canelo would be more surprising than the Buster Douglas KO of Tyson. Tyson was ripe for an upset v a good bigger HW due to several factors. Canelo has shown no such ripening for upset.

I can see a fairly longshot potential points win for Plant based on his skills and gifts sets and the success BJS was having v Canelo prior to the fight ending sequence.

Well, I don't think so. Plant is stylistically bad for Canelo, judging on Canelo's worst performances against Mayweather and Lara. Of course, Canelo improved since then, but still he has never faced slick fighters of that level since those times. Plant looks fit and motivated, while he brings some obscurity. Tyson seemed invincible before Douglas, while Douglas showed vulnerabilities prior to Tyson. Plant leaves questions to be answered only in the bout itself, while his style can cause problems to Canelo, if it's executed well.

I followed boxing much closer back then. All signs pointed to a decline in Tyson’s training and focus prior to the Douglas fight. The fame and fortune had gotten to Tyson by mid 1988. His marriage to Robin Givens was the biggest contributor to his downfall, in my opinion. That show took his focus off of training, and led to poor business decisions, including getting rid of Cayton and Rooney, the team that had helped him stay focused and become undisputed. On top of that, due to his massive international brand, augmented by Tyson’s inclusion in Punchout by Nintendo, his marketing and media obligations grew significantly, further diluting his focus.

All of the above, combined with his major slowdown of activity in 1989 pointed to Tyson being ripe for an upset to a much bigger skilled HW. Tyson had not fought since July of 1989 when he stepped in with Douglas on February 11, 1990.

Since the Bonecrusher decision, I was convinced that a good big HW would upset Tyson if his training and focus faltered. The Douglas fight was the culmination of a perfect storm.

I won a lot of money on that fight.

I see no perfect storm of problems in the Canelo camp. Canelo is one of the consummate professionals in the history of boxing. He still has the team that got him here. He has no parallel personal issues. He has his brand and time management under control.

I am not betting on Plant.

[553848]

You even have others like Danny G. coming out now calling it 50/50


https://www.boxingnews24.com/2021/10/ca ... ny-garcia/

[candyslim]

Guys can I just ask you 'What's with the numerical user-names?

Your guess is as good as mine...maybe you should PM John and find out for us. Its silly, there's no doubt about that. If you log-in with a google email itll assign you a 'jailbird' number.

I think I may have annoyed him enough over the issue of not rating fighters as Bridgerweight or Heavyweight like they don't exist, as well as persistent enquiries about this issue.

You may have more luck with that than me. If you log in quoting an e-mail address I think you can choose your user-name but then you'd lose your history.
The only problem with the status quo is that numbers are not that memorable so it's hard to differentiate between posters. Some of us (not me) struggle with Ironbeard and Ironfist.

[margaret thatcher]

Although if someone has been banned 7-8 times and is on yet another account (or 2), maybe having attention brought to them with the mods isnt the best thing

[Enlightened-One]

So if an undercard fight in Juarez some Wednesday Night features an upset of a lightly regarded prospect who was favored 60-1 then you would call that fight a bigger upset versus a Plant win?

Mathematically-speaking, yes - those are statistical facts.

However, Caleb Plant beating Canelo would have a greater “impact”, because of the Mexican’s status in the sport, due to the fact the other upsets I mentioned involved fighters that are relatively unknown (in comparison to Alvarez).

There’s more to an “upset” than merely looking at the odds and basing it off those numbers alone.

Of course, there’s personal opinion too.

However, a lot of people will be placing bets hoping to make money from the fighter they believe will win.

And statistically-speaking, the betting odds currently suggest that Caleb Plant beating Canelo would be a significant upset, but probably not the biggest to have happened in recent memory.

Canelo losing and being outboxed by Plant would be crazy. Canelo getting knocked out in this fight would be almost as shocking as Mike and Buster.

Caleb Plant beating Canelo would surprise me, but I would not be “shocked”.

The American is a huge athletic 168lb-er, skilful, unbeaten as a pro, hasn’t tasted defeat in boxing for 8½ years, emerged victorious in four world title fights and has also defeated two world champions.

When I review Plant’s resume and highlight-reel, I simply can’t regard him as a bigger (or a remotely similar) underdog than when Buster Douglas upset Mike Tyson.

[ironbeard]

When I review Plant’s resume and highlight-reel, I simply can’t regard him as a bigger (or a remotely similar) underdog than when Buster Douglas upset Mike Tyson.

Anyone who was alive and paying attention in 1989/90 knew Douglas was a VERY live dog going into the fight.

Tyson was the most over hyped HW champion in my lifetime. All the signs were there for a potential upset. None of those signs are there in Canelo v Plant, with the exception of size/length.

Plant is also a live dog, but he is NOT facing a weakened and distracted version of Canelo. Douglas defeated the shell of Mike Tyson.

[Enlightened-One]

Anyone who was alive and paying attention in 1989/90 knew Douglas was a VERY live dog going into the fight.

Tyson was the most over hyped HW champion in my lifetime.

Tyson was a 23½ year old undisputed world heavyweight champion engaging in his eleventh title bout and seeking his seventh consecutive KO victory when he fought James ‘Buster’ Douglas.

When Douglas entered the ring in the Tokyo Dome, he was a 42/1 underdog that had previously failed to defeat the likes of:

• Tony Tucker
• Jesse Ferguson
• Mike White
• Steffen Tangstad
• David Bey

Most of these guys were either beaten by Tyson himself or Mike’s previous victims.

Buster Douglas’ victory over Mike Tyson is widely-regarded as the biggest upset in boxing history.

Douglas’ victory over Tyson was the final notable win of his career, because he was subsequently destroyed by Evander Holyfield and Lou Savarese, as well as scoring several lacklustre victories over journeymen calibre opposition.

Mike Tyson would eventually reclaim his WBC & WBA titles from Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon, before eventually losing to Evander Holyfield (twice), Lennox Lewis, Danny Williams and Kevin McBride.

Tyson’s four-year hiatus from the sport of boxing (between 1991 and 1995) ultimately prevented Mike from recapturing his form prior to the Douglas defeat.

Mike Tyson engaged in sixteen world heavyweight title bouts, winning twelve of them.

If we review the all the world heavyweight title bouts since Liston’s first loss to Ali, only Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Muhammad Ali, Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes have achieved more success in world championship bouts.

Five of Tyson’s bouts were against Hall-of-Famers, and he also faced sixteen former/current world heavyweight titlists.

[ironbeard]

Anyone who was alive and paying attention in 1989/90 knew Douglas was a VERY live dog going into the fight.

Tyson was the most over hyped HW champion in my lifetime.

Tyson was a 23½ year old undisputed world heavyweight champion engaging in his eleventh title bout and seeking his seventh consecutive KO victory when he fought James ‘Buster’ Douglas.

When Douglas entered the ring in the Tokyo Dome, he was a 42/1 underdog that had previously failed to defeat the likes of:

• Tony Tucker
• Jesse Ferguson
• Mike White
• Steffen Tangstad
• David Bey

Most of these guys were either beaten by Tyson himself or Mike’s previous victims.

Buster Douglas’ victory over Mike Tyson is widely-regarded as the biggest upset in boxing history.

Douglas’ victory over Tyson was the final notable win of his career, because he was subsequently destroyed by Evander Holyfield and Lou Savarese, as well as scoring several lacklustre victories over journeymen calibre opposition.

None of which took into account Tyson’s show of a marriage, dumping of the team that helped him succeed, lack of training focus and loss of the fundamentals that were the foundation of his ability to defeat larger/longer opponents, sudden inactivity, media and marketing obligations that he was not mature enough to manage.

Tyson was ripe for upset. The fact that the upset came at the hands of such an undisciplined, unaccomplished, mediocre boxer is all the evidence needed for my case.

Just because the vast majority of people did not take those things into account, driving the odds to ridiculousness, does not change the fact that Tyson was ripe to the point of rotten for an upset. People paying attention knew that and made a lot of money based on that risk/reward equation.

Tyson was always there for the taking if he was not in absolute peak condition and total focus. He was nowhere near either going into the Douglas fight. I was not the only one who was well aware of it. Many just refused to see the reality of Tyson’s situation, choosing to believe the hype that he was untouchable.

Resume dictation.

[Enlightened-One]

Anyone who was alive and paying attention in 1989/90 knew Douglas was a VERY live dog going into the fight.

Tyson was the most over hyped HW champion in my lifetime.

Tyson was a 23½ year old undisputed world heavyweight champion engaging in his eleventh title bout and seeking his seventh consecutive KO victory when he fought James ‘Buster’ Douglas.

When Douglas entered the ring in the Tokyo Dome, he was a 42/1 underdog that had previously failed to defeat the likes of:

• Tony Tucker
• Jesse Ferguson
• Mike White
• Steffen Tangstad
• David Bey

Most of these guys were either beaten by Tyson himself or Mike’s previous victims.

Buster Douglas’ victory over Mike Tyson is widely-regarded as the biggest upset in boxing history.

Douglas’ victory over Tyson was the final notable win of his career, because he was subsequently destroyed by Evander Holyfield and Lou Savarese, as well as scoring several lacklustre victories over journeymen calibre opposition.

None of which took into account Tyson’s show of a marriage, dumping of the team that helped him succeed, lack of training focus and loss of the fundamentals that were the foundation of his ability to defeat larger/longer opponents, sudden inactivity, media and marketing obligations that he was not mature enough to manage.

Tyson was ripe for upset. The fact that the upset came at the hands of such an undisciplined, unaccomplished, mediocre boxer is all the evidence needed for my case.

Just because the vast majority of people did not take those things into account, driving the odds to ridiculousness, does not change the fact that Tyson was ripe to the point of rotten for an upset. People paying attention knew that and made a lot of money based on that risk/reward equation.

Tyson was always there for the taking if he was not in absolute peak condition and total focus. He was nowhere near either going into the Douglas fight. I was not the only one who was well aware of it. Many just refused to see the reality of Tyson’s situation, choosing to believe the hype that he was untouchable.

Resume dictation.

You’ve just claimed the vast majority of the entire population of planet earth wasn’t paying attention in 1990 and that Mike Tyson is the most over-hyped champion of your lifetime… and I’m guessing you’re at least fifty years of age!