Colorline - what was worse (Dempsey Tunney)

[barry]

>>>Here is my question: is there any (other) black fighter who Tunney should have fought but didn't?<<<

Not really!!! There were a few black heavyweights who were good fighters, but as far as being a top ranked heavyweight there just simply were none. There were guys like Bob Lawson, "Tut" Jackson, Bearcat Wright, Bill Hartwell, Bill Tate, Brad Simmons, Neil Clisby, Tom Hawkins, Leon Chevalier, Jack Thompson, John Lester Johnson and Jake Warren and that pretty much sums up the top black fighters of the Tunney reign as champion, which some were still too green and some were way past it. There just was no black heavyweight during the few years that Tunney held the title who had, without any doubts, earned a shot at the title.

The competition was just not there at that time, but had it been I could not imagine Tunney being afraid of any fighter. Arguably the best heavyweight at that time was Godfrey, but it was in no way clearly a head-and-shoulders above the rest as pretty much all the names I mentioned about all of those guys were at around the same level at that particular time, which some would go on to greater things and others wouldn’t, but for that small frame of time they were a very even bunch of fighters.

[pundit]

>>>Here is my question: is there any (other) black fighter who Tunney should have fought but didn't?<<<

Not really!!! There were a few black heavyweights who were good fighters, but as far as being a top ranked heavyweight there just simply were none. There were guys like Bob Lawson, "Tut" Jackson, Bearcat Wright, Bill Hartwell, Bill Tate, Brad Simmons, Neil Clisby, Tom Hawkins, Leon Chevalier, Jack Thompson, John Lester Johnson and Jake Warren and that pretty much sums up the top black fighters of the Tunney reign as champion, which some were still too green and some were way past it. There just was no black heavyweight during the few years that Tunney held the title who had, without any doubts, earned a shot at the title.

The competition was just not there at that time, but had it been I could not imagine Tunney being afraid of any fighter. Arguably the best heavyweight at that time was Godfrey, but it was in no way clearly a head-and-shoulders above the rest as pretty much all the names I mentioned about all of those guys were at around the same level at that particular time, which some would go on to greater things and others wouldn’t, but for that small frame of time they were a very even bunch of fighters.

What about at light-heavyweight?

Btw, it's clear that Tunney wasn't afraid to fight the best; after all he squared off with Harry Greb five times, and he fought bucketloads of classy light-heavyweights, including several HOFers. But I wonder whether his alleged racism made the boxing world miss out on any significant fights.

[barry]

For that brief time frame the black light heavyweights were about the same as heavyweight…actually a lot worse…a few of which were mostly middleweight, but who fought successful at light heavyweight. There were guys like Tiger Flowers, “Tiger” Jack Payne, “Allentown” Joe Gans and Homer Robertson and that about sums it up unless I am just grossly forgetting about someone. There just was not any colored talent during the Tunney years…though by four to five later the light heavyweight division was absolutely loaded with top black fighters.

[pundit]

For that brief time frame the black light heavyweights were about the same as heavyweight…actually a lot worse…a few of which were mostly middleweight, but who fought successful at light heavyweight. There were guys like Tiger Flowers, “Tiger” Jack Payne, “Allentown” Joe Gans and Homer Robertson and that about sums it up unless I am just grossly forgetting about someone. There just was not any colored talent during the Tunney years…though by four to five later the light heavyweight division was absolutely loaded with top black fighters.

Thanks.

Tiger Flowers was really a middlweight and made to the world stage anyway only after Tunney had departed to heavyweight. Payne and Robertson are also post-Tunney. And Allentown Joe Gans wasn't in Tunney's league.

So I seriously wonder what this "Tunney would never have fought a black man" thing is all about. Tunney would have fought Wills, and other than that there was simply no black man to fight.

P

[barry]

>>>Tunney would have fought Wills, and other than that there was simply no black man to fight.<<<

I agree!

[barry]

I did forget about a couple...there were a couple of pretty good Cuban heavy and light heavyweights in Tunney's area, but none that would merit a world heavyweight title shot.

[RowanSmith]

>>>Tunney would have fought Wills, and other than that there was simply no black man to fight.<<<

I agree!

Tunney may have fought Wills if it guarenteed him a title shot--otherwise he would have stayed clear. He never would have even mentioned Wills if the latter had not been the locgical challenger to the throne for over seven years. Not to mention that Tunney was well connected and may have publically offered to fight Wills as a bluff only, knowing that he would get his shot without ever having to face Harry--which is exactly what happened. I am fairly sure that Gene also knew that Harry was near the end of the line. Not to mention that when Paddy Mullins and Wills inquired about Tunney's challenge, both Gibson and Tunney remained elusive.

The fact that Tunney never fought a black man is not damning in itself--however, this is not due to the fact that there were none to fight--there were plenty throughout his career--and he stayed clear. However, it is difficult to measure the true number or worth of these black fighters because of the institutional segregration that was going on in boxing at the time. Sure, some black fighters got some bouts with white fighters--but not in the more important weight classes---ie middleweight to heavyweight-not in the big fights with well backed white fighters. To believe that it was an even playing field is to dismiss what the facts were. That Tunney could box for as long as he did and not meet at least one black opponent is not coicidence.

I am sure that fighting George Godfrey never even crossed Gene Tunney's mind---so in a sense I guess he didn't duck him, because really, I don't think George Godfrey existed in Gene's world.

[barry]

>>>Why shouldn't he have gotten a shot at Tunney's American Light Heavyweight Championship in 1922 or 1923?<<<

Because we are talking about Tunney's heavyweight reign!

What I am speaking on is for the years that Tunney held the heavyweight title...which there were no colored heavyweights that stood out at that time...though it was only what, two, or three years. Now throughout his entire career...well of course there were many top colored heavyweights and light heavyweights that Tunney never fought, but I'm speaking on the couple of years that he held the title.

[pundit]

What about Kid Norfolk, who held the Black Light Heavyweight Championship of the World in 1923 and beat Harry Greb in 1924? The one who beat Billy Miske in 1917? Beat Big Bill Tate in 1920? Twice knocked out Tiger Flowers. Norfolk was born in America. He had a solid resume. Why shouldn't he have gotten a shot at Tunney's American Light Heavyweight Championship in 1922 or 1923?

Point well taken. Kid Norfolk is probably the best candidate.

Question: is he a "must" (like Wills was for Dempsey), or a "could"? Btw, Norfolk challenged Dempsey publicly, not Tunney.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Now throughout his entire career...well of course there were many top colored heavyweights and light heavyweights that Tunney never fought

exactley, this should be held against him. tunney drew the color line way too severely.

The fact that Tunney never fought a black man is not damning in itself--however, this is not due to the fact that there were none to fight--there were plenty throughout his career--and he stayed clear.

nice post kevin, read this pundit.

I am sure that fighting George Godfrey never even crossed Gene Tunney's mind---so in a sense I guess he didn't duck him, because really, I don't think George Godfrey existed in Gene's world.

tunney never took on a big heavyweight or a black fighter, let alone a big powerful skilled black heavyweight

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

pundit makes a big deal about marciano fighting old men. yet pundit doesnt critisize tunney for wanting to fight a 37 year old far past his prime black heavyweight, rather than the prime 25 year old big powerful black heavyweight.



wuts with ur logic? fact is tunney knew godfrey was a lot more dangerous than old wills, which is why he steered clear of fighting godfrey. too dangerous of a fight for gene

[pundit]

pundit makes a big deal about marciano fighting old men. yet pundit doesnt critisize tunney for wanting to fight a 37 year old far past his prime black heavyweight, rather than the prime 25 year old big powerful black heavyweight.

Boy, this is ridiculous. Tunney didn't WANT to fight Wills - he wanted to fight DEMPSEY for the heavyweight championship. But he was PREPARED to fight Wills if this was required to get a shot at Dempsey (Godfrey - no more than an upstart in 1925 - was not even in discussion as oppponent for an eliminator).

And anyway, you're totally missing the point here. I reacted to your - wrong - statement that Tunney wasn't prepared to fight blacks. He was, at least in this case.

As for Tunney's greatness as a fighter, it does of course NOT depend on having or not-having fought a 37-year-old in 1925 - although even an old Wills would read nicely on his resumee. It depends even less on having or not-having fougth Godfrey - as if this would have added anything important to his wins over Dempsey, Greb, Loughran, Carpentier, Levinsky, Gibbons, Risko, Heeney.

Marciano's greatness though has to be assessed in view of the fact that all his major opponents were either of biblical age or over-the-hill or both. How much this compromises his greatness is a legitimate matter of debate.

[pundit]

Now throughout his entire career...well of course there were many top colored heavyweights and light heavyweights that Tunney never fought

exactley, this should be held against him. tunney drew the color line way too severely.

Would you please prepared to mention at least ONE black fighter worthwhile fighting (besides Godfrey, who plainly and frankly doesn't qualify)? At least Decagon came up with Kid Norfolk (who was very good but not better than the other top light-heavyweights Tunney fought in 1922-23; and who wanted to fight Dempsey anyway, not Tuney).

In contrast, Wills was THE ONE opponent for Dempsey between at least 1919 and 1924.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

But he was PREPARED to fight Wills if this was required to get a shot at Dempsey (Godfrey - no more than an upstart in 1925 - was not even in discussion as oppponent for an eliminator).

please provide a source stating godfrey was not even in the discussion as an opponent for an eliminator?





tunney REFUSED TO FIGHT GODFREY. godfrey camp pursued the match but got turned down. tunney blantatley said " i will fight harry wills, but i will not fight george godfrey." why is this? cause he knows a old washed up heavyweight will be a lot less of a risk than a big powerful young heavyweight.



godfrey was the most dangerous heavyweight out there. tunney wanted no part of him. harry wills even ducked george godfrey in 1925-26. the black and white press critisized wills for this. godfrey called out wills, but wills did not want to fight him.



you know if godfrey wasnt that good, why didnt tunney just accept his challenge and beat him? tunney was scared of george godfrey, he wanted no part of him.


the fact tunney did not fight any black fighters and did not want to face them is a major mark on tunneys legacy.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Marciano's greatness though has to be assessed in view of the fact that all his major opponents were either of biblical age or over-the-hill or both.

but its not a fact that walcott and moore were over the hill when they fought marciano.



you want a fact? archie moore was on THE BEST WINNING STREAK OF HIS CAREER LEADING UP TO THE MARCIANO TITLE FIGHT.


you want another fact? walcott was coming off the two best back to back victories of his career entering the marciano fight AND WALCOTT WAS CHAMPION.



you want other facts?


newspaper reports and ringsiders all claimed after walcott-marciano I that this was one of walcotts finest preformances.



you want another fact??



joe louis and nat fleisher said walcott became a better fighter in his mid-late 30s


you want another fact?



walcott said "no fight that i ever fought did i feel better or more confident" talking about marciano I fight


JERSEY JOE HIMSELF SAID MARCIANO BEAT THE BEST VERSION OF HIM






its ur opinion that walcott and moore were over the hill when they fought marciano. but its not a fact!

[pundit]

But he was PREPARED to fight Wills if this was required to get a shot at Dempsey (Godfrey - no more than an upstart in 1925 - was not even in discussion as oppponent for an eliminator).

please provide a source stating godfrey was not even in the discussion as an opponent for an eliminator?

Little milkboy Johnny Flycatcher was also not in discussion in 1925; do you want evidence also on this?

tunney REFUSED TO FIGHT GODFREY. godfrey camp pursued the match but got turned down. tunney blantatley said " i will fight harry wills, but i will not fight george godfrey." why is this?

I've written this at least 10 times now:

Because there was not the slightest reason for Tunney, who was pursuing a shot at Dempsey, to fight a marginal contender like Godfrey.

It's really easy to understand, if you try only a little bit.

godfrey was the most dangerous heavyweight out there. tunney wanted no part of him.

And it's the storch who brings the little babies.

you know if godfrey wasnt that good, why didnt tunney just accept his challenge and beat him?

Why didn't Lennox Lewis accept the challenge from John Ruiz? Ah yes, because he was scared to death.

[pundit]

Marciano's greatness though has to be assessed in view of the fact that all his major opponents were either of biblical age or over-the-hill or both.

but its not a fact that walcott and moore were over the hill when they fought marciano.

For people with reading difficulties:

Marciano's greatness though has to be assessed in view of the fact that all his major opponents were either of biblical age or over-the-hill or both.

you want another fact? walcott was coming off the two best back to back victories of his career entering the marciano fight AND WALCOTT WAS CHAMPION.

Weren't these wins over rapidly deteriorating Ezzard Charles?

newspaper reports and ringsiders all claimed after walcott-marciano I that this was one of walcotts finest preformances.

Sure, after all biblical-age Walcott won most rounds.

P

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Weren't these wins over rapidly deteriorating Ezzard Charles?

ur telling me walcott beat a rapidly detiorating charles?

walcott beat the same charles who was heavyweight champion and WAS UNDEFEATED FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS!


if charles had not lost in 5 years prior to the walcott bout, how was he rapidly detiorating?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

its not a fact that moore and walcott were over the hill when marciano beat them. its ur highly bias opinion. i disagree with you as do others. walcott himself would disagree with you. joe louis and nat fleisher said walcott was a better fighter in his mid-late 30s. so they disagree with you.




marciano was 32 when he fought archie moore? does that make him over the hill. hell he never fought again right? that must means marciano was over the hill.

[pundit]

Weren't these wins over rapidly deteriorating Ezzard Charles?

ur telling me walcott beat a rapidly detiorating charles?

walcott beat the same charles who was heavyweight champion and WAS UNDEFEATED FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS!


if charles had not lost in 5 years prior to the walcott bout, how was he rapidly detiorating?

How? Win, deterioarte, win, deteriorate, win, deteriorate, win, deteriorate, lose, deteriorate, lose, deteriorate...

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Sure, after all biblical-age Walcott won most rounds.

most? actually it was a close fight. i had it 7 rounds to 5 walcott after 12 rounds. a close fight.




walcott was 34 when he fought joe louis, that does make him old?




did 29 year old ezzard charles get knocked out by a biblical age walcott??

[pundit]

its not a fact that moore and walcott were over the hill when marciano beat them. its ur highly bias opinion. i disagree with you as do others. walcott himself would disagree with you. joe louis and nat fleisher said walcott was a better fighter in his mid-late 30s. so they disagree with you.

For the deaf and blind:

Marciano's greatness though has to be assessed in view of the fact that all his major opponents were either of biblical age or over-the-hill or both.

[pundit]

Sure, after all biblical-age Walcott won most rounds.

most? actually it was a close fight. i had it 7 rounds to 5 walcott after 12 rounds. a close fight.

Ah, that's what you had. I would have expected you to have it 16 rounds for Marciano 1 for Walcott after 12 rounds.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

its not a fact that moore and walcott were over the hill when marciano beat them. its ur highly bias opinion. i disagree with you as do others. walcott himself would disagree with you. joe louis and nat fleisher said walcott was a better fighter in his mid-late 30s. so they disagree with you. [q.uote]

For the deaf and blind:

Marciano's greatness though has to be assessed in view of the fact that all his major opponents were either of biblical age or over-the-hill or both.

but this is not true.


wut about 23 year old rex layne?

or 22 year old roland lastarza? both major opponents that were young

[pundit]

its not a fact that moore and walcott were over the hill when marciano beat them. its ur highly bias opinion. i disagree with you as do others. walcott himself would disagree with you. joe louis and nat fleisher said walcott was a better fighter in his mid-late 30s. so they disagree with you. [q.uote]

For the deaf and blind:

Marciano's greatness though has to be assessed in view of the fact that all his major opponents were either of biblical age or over-the-hill or both.

but this is not true.

wut about 23 year old rex layne?

or 22 year old roland lastarza? both major opponents that were young

Ah, Marciano's greatness is based on beating Rex Layne.