Was tysons power overrated?

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 25 Jul 2006, 12:07

Tyson's power was never overrated...it was his Heart and Guts that were heavily overrated...that's why he never won a major fight after 1989...that's why he doesn't belong in the same club as Louis, Holmes, Ali, Dempsey, Foreman, etc. Any of the great champions (the top ten guys) had a huge edge over Tyson...they didn't quit...Tyson quit MANY times. And...when you bite a guy's earlobe twice in a fight...in full view of the ref...that counts as quitting...Tyson's power-outstanding...Tyson's hand speed-outstanding...Tyson's Heart-non-exsistant...Tyson's guts-non-exsistant...when the going got rough, Tyson folded like a bad poker hand...every single time!!!

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 25 Jul 2006, 14:01

Tyson's power is def. over-rated. It's become part of the American popular culture. "he hits like Mike Tyson" or "how much would somebody have to pay you to go a round with Mike Tyson" are two common things people say in conversation. He was a widely popular and heavily promoted champion who at his peak was stopping almost all of his opponents. His pre-championship KOs are also heavily circulated on VHS and now the Internet, moreso than any other fighter in history.

But when you really compare film of Tyson to other great KO artists in the HW division, he is certainly not tops, or even in the top 5. Tyson with his frame and handspeed had great leverage in his shots and was able to land precise fast punches that took opponents out. He certainly had a good amount of power, but he did not have the simple one punch power of a Shavers, Weaver, or even Lennox Lewis. From a power standpoint, he wasn't putting down normally durable guys with one shot like Lyle did to Foreman, Shavers did to Holmes, or Louis did to Uzcudun. He would hurt his opponent and then overwhelm him with a flurry of shots, like he did vs Bruno and Berbick. Those guys were hurt, but they kept getting up.

Even from a precision and speed standpoint, Tyson is not top of the class. If you look at films of Louis and Tyson, Joe had clearly faster hands and was more accurate and a much better counter-puncher.

Once Tyson lost his footspeed and that leverage in the late 90s, you stopped seeing those highlight reel KOs. The Botha KO aside, this was a guy who couldn't clearly put away Nielson, or even hurt Lewis or Kevin McBride. He needed that dip and leverage (plus speed) to generate that power. On the other hand, Foreman had the footspeed of a dinosaur in his comeback but still demolished Cooney and Moorer, and kept Shannon Briggs at bay for the length of their fight.

shyguy · Post by **shyguy** » 25 Jul 2006, 14:34

dempseyfire wrote:Tyson's power is def. over-rated. It's become part of the American popular culture. "he hits like Mike Tyson" or "how much would somebody have to pay you to go a round with Mike Tyson" are two common things people say in conversation. He was a widely popular and heavily promoted champion who at his peak was stopping almost all of his opponents. His pre-championship KOs are also heavily circulated on VHS and now the Internet, moreso than any other fighter in history.

But when you really compare film of Tyson to other great KO artists in the HW division, he is certainly not tops, or even in the top 5. Tyson with his frame and handspeed had great leverage in his shots and was able to land precise fast punches that took opponents out. He certainly had a good amount of power, but he did not have the simple one punch power of a Shavers, Weaver, or even Lennox Lewis. From a power standpoint, he wasn't putting down normally durable guys with one shot like Lyle did to Foreman, Shavers did to Holmes, or Louis did to Uzcudun. He would hurt his opponent and then overwhelm him with a flurry of shots, like he did vs Bruno and Berbick. Those guys were hurt, but they kept getting up.

Even from a precision and speed standpoint, Tyson is not top of the class. If you look at films of Louis and Tyson, Joe had clearly faster hands and was more accurate and a much better counter-puncher.

Once Tyson lost his footspeed and that leverage in the late 90s, you stopped seeing those highlight reel KOs. The Botha KO aside, this was a guy who couldn't clearly put away Nielson, or even hurt Lewis or Kevin McBride. He needed that dip and leverage (plus speed) to generate that power. On the other hand, Foreman had the footspeed of a dinosaur in his comeback but still demolished Cooney and Moorer, and kept Shannon Briggs at bay for the length of their fight.

tysn had faster hands than joe louis . Tyson still had his power late in his career . He knocked out botha,saverese,seldon,saverese,etienne all with one punch . He had willams ready to go in round one before he twisted his knee. Willams even said after tyson twisted his knee he lost a lot of power . He said tyson had unbelievable power for the the first round . Against lewis he never landed cleanly . Tua never knocked lewis either dose that mean tua lacked power. Against mcbride tyson never landed a decent shot . Tyson took as many of his opponents out with glancing blows as foreman . For what reason do you think tysons power was overrated ?.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 25 Jul 2006, 15:04

but he did not have the simple one punch power of a Shavers, Weaver, or even Lennox Lewis. From a power standpoint, he wasn't putting down normally durable guys with one shot like Lyle did to Foreman, Shavers did to Holmes, or Louis did to Uzcudun. He would hurt his opponent and then overwhelm him with a flurry of shots, like he did vs Bruno and Berbick. Those guys were hurt, but they kept getting up.

mike weaver harder hiter than mike tyson?

tyson didnt put down durable guys with one punch? did u ever see the tony tubbs, larry holmes, etc fights?

bottom line: when tyson hit people they did funny things. when foreman hit people, THEY DID NOT DO FUNNY THINGS.

tyson had so much snap on his punch, he put peoples lights out. foreman DID NOT!

shyguy · Post by **shyguy** » 25 Jul 2006, 15:19

tyson did not put down durable guys?

let me see he put down tubbs,spinks,bruno,holmes,tubbs,biggs,thomas,botha. all those guys had good chins.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 25 Jul 2006, 15:28

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:bottom line: when tyson hit people they did funny things. when foreman hit people, THEY DID NOT DO FUNNY THINGS.

Sorry Brocky, but that’s a pretty silly statement. As you would say – try watching some films.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 25 Jul 2006, 17:34

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:bottom line: when tyson hit people they did funny things. when foreman hit people, THEY DID NOT DO FUNNY THINGS.
Sorry Brocky, but that’s a pretty silly statement. As you would say – try watching some films.

i have. when tyson hit opponents he made them do the chicken dance. when tyson hit his opponents, he put there lights out.

when foreman hit his opponents, they usually always got back up. he didnt have the snap in his punch that mike did. foreman didnt put people down for the 10 count. even norton who got hit with foremans biggest bombs was still able to get up.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 25 Jul 2006, 19:02

wouter wrote:
Jan wrote:shyguy:

Yes. I have heard some people saying that tyson has the worldrecord!
Was that Robin Givens?

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 25 Jul 2006, 19:22

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:bottom line: when tyson hit people they did funny things. when foreman hit people, THEY DID NOT DO FUNNY THINGS.
Sorry Brocky, but that’s a pretty silly statement. As you would say – try watching some films.

i have. when tyson hit opponents he made them do the chicken dance. when tyson hit his opponents, he put there lights out.

when foreman hit his opponents, they usually always got back up. he didnt have the snap in his punch that mike did. foreman didnt put people down for the 10 count. even norton who got hit with foremans biggest bombs was still able to get up.

Again you're being rather silly. Many of Foremans fights were count outs and many of Tysons opponents got up. Perhaps you're not familiar with their records. The fact that Berbick "did the chicken dance" kinda makes your statement look even sillier since Berbick DID get up. And I seem to recall Buster Douglas getting up and continuing his beat down of Tyson. Or doesn't that count?

And the fact that Norton got up after being dropped by Foreman hardly proves that Tyson hit harder. Who exactly did Tyson KO that was as good as Norton?

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 25 Jul 2006, 22:44

shyguy wrote:Was tysons power overrated?.

Yes.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 Jul 2006, 00:09

Tyson did have power, and maybe what made him more dangerous was in his prime he had awesome hand speed---but then again, Tyson wasn't exactly facing tthe elite Heavyweights of the 1970's either, like Foreman was, like Frazier was, or as Ali was.

Tyson faced guys like Tubbs, Berbick, Williams in his "prime". In his comeback he faced guys like Mathis, McNeeley, Botha, Nielson, Francis, Savarese.

Sure it was fun to watch, but they were hardly top flight opposition. It's the same argument I make about Joe Louis---was he really so great or was it because the era was dry in great talent? How would Tyson or Louis have faired in the 70's?

Look at the top contenders of Joe Louis' time (circa 1941):

1.) Lou Nova
2.) Billy Conn
3.) Budday Baer
4.) Lem Franklin
5.) Bob Pastor
6.) Abe Simon
7.) Melio Bettina
8.) Turkey Thompson
9.) Alberto Lovell
10.) Arturo Godoy

Billy Conn, a Middleweight turn Light Heavyweight turn Heavyweight, was the best of the bunch, even though he weighed only 168 pounds when he faced Joe Louis the first time around---so more or less a Super Middleweight was the best man Louis had to face. Turkey Thompson was arguably the second best man, but Louis never fought him.

The Top Contenders of 1986 (shortly before Tyson became champion):

1.) Pinklon Thomas
2.) Larry Holmes
3.) Tim Witherspoon
4.) Tony Tubbs
5.) Greg Page
6.) Gerrie Coetzee
7.) Trevor Berbick
8.) Carl Williams
9.) Mike Weaver
10.) Michael Dokes

Tyson faced Holmes, who was 19 months inactive and had no tune-up fights. Tyson faced Tubbs, Williams, Berbick and Thomas---all the while advoiding guys like Witherspoon, who was the best of the bunch and was in his element. Sure he unified the titles, but hell the WBC champ was Berbick, WBA champ was Bonecrusher Smith and the IBF champion was Thomas (who was possibly the best of the title holders), and of course, the lineal title against a scared shitless Micheal Spinks, a blown up Light Heavyweight.

Both eras were dry and in Tyson's era, more so, as most of the so-called top men were far too inconsistant---Dokes was a drug addict, Coetzee lacked confidence, Smith was lucky to get his title shot as he failed many times to make his mark in the division, Tubbs was a fat ass, Page was cocky but failed to meet any real expectations---in short the division was full of men that the general public didn't give a shit about.

Same as in Louis' time. Put em all in a bag, shake em up, their all pretty much the same.

barry · Post by **barry** » 26 Jul 2006, 00:30

>>>Compare Tyson's and Foreman's body work. Tyson targetted exact points in the body, with the left hook to the floating ribs, or the right uppercut to the heart. Foreman would just tee off and let the punches land where they may.<<<

Thats what made Tyson so dangerous. He not only could almost knock an opponents head off, but he punched with precision to the body and head.

As to someone trying to compare the Tyson of the late 1990s...well that's like trying to validate any fighter who is not only past they're prime...but way, way, way past they're prime...it's like judging Jeffries mostly on the Johnson fight, or judging Louis mostly on the Marciano fight...when a fighter it's way past his prime there is no need to even mention those times compared to when the fighter was knocking people silly...not to mention just simply scaring the complete shit out of opponents, which Tyson did better than any heavyweight in history!

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 26 Jul 2006, 02:09

Shavers and Foreman would knock my head off to the 20th row.

Tyson would knock my head off to the 15th row.

So yeah his power is waay overrated!!!

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Jul 2006, 02:21

Sweet Scientist wrote:Tyson's power was never overrated...it was his Heart and Guts that were heavily overrated...that's why he never won a major fight after 1989...that's why he doesn't belong in the same club as Louis, Holmes, Ali, Dempsey, Foreman, etc. Any of the great champions (the top ten guys) had a huge edge over Tyson...they didn't quit...Tyson quit MANY times. And...when you bite a guy's earlobe twice in a fight...in full view of the ref...that counts as quitting...Tyson's power-outstanding...Tyson's hand speed-outstanding...Tyson's Heart-non-exsistant...Tyson's guts-non-exsistant...when the going got rough, Tyson folded like a bad poker hand...every single time!!!

I never heard of Tyson wanting to quit in his corner like Ali begged to in Liston I.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Jul 2006, 10:03

Ali quit in his corner as soon as Holmes finally started throwing some serious punches.

Pathetic.

.

shyguy · Post by **shyguy** » 26 Jul 2006, 10:53

Was tysons power overrated? . Danny willams dosent think so . He said tyson was the hardest hitter he faced.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 26 Jul 2006, 11:07

shyguy wrote:Was tysons power overrated? . Danny willams dosent think so . He said tyson was the hardest hitter he faced.

So what? Who exactly has Danny Willams fought that makes that statement worth anything?

Hell ya Tyson punched hard. Was his power over rated? I quess that depends on how you rate his power. If you say silly things like Tyson hit harder than Foreman because one of Tyson’s opponents did the “chicken dance”, then yes you are over rating his power. But if you say that he really didn’t hit very hard because he couldn’t KO Holyfield, then I’d say you’re under rating his power.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 26 Jul 2006, 11:15

The Great John L wrote:
shyguy wrote:Was tysons power overrated? . Danny willams dosent think so . He said tyson was the hardest hitter he faced.
So what? Who exactly has Danny Willams fought that makes that statement worth anything?

Hell ya Tyson punched hard. Was his power over rated? I quess that depends on how you rate his power. If you say silly things like Tyson hit harder than Foreman because one of Tyson’s opponents did the “chicken dance”, then yes you are over rating his power. But if you say that he really didn’t hit very hard because he couldn’t KO Holyfield, then I’d say you’re under rating his power.

Power is anyway an overrated quality. It helps, but at the highest level only if you can also box. And plentiful fighters were able to dominate their divisions without applying a particulalry powerful punch, as long as they punched fast and accurately and had good defensive skills. In fact, a fast, acurate, well-time punch can create desaster and havoc even if it is not particulalry powerful.

The young Tysons' particular ferocity resulted not only from power but power in combination with awesome handspeed and combination punching. He overwhelmed his opponents more than taking them out with single-handed shots.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 26 Jul 2006, 11:29

pundit wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
shyguy wrote:Was tysons power overrated? . Danny willams dosent think so . He said tyson was the hardest hitter he faced.
So what? Who exactly has Danny Willams fought that makes that statement worth anything?

Hell ya Tyson punched hard. Was his power over rated? I quess that depends on how you rate his power. If you say silly things like Tyson hit harder than Foreman because one of Tyson’s opponents did the “chicken dance”, then yes you are over rating his power. But if you say that he really didn’t hit very hard because he couldn’t KO Holyfield, then I’d say you’re under rating his power.
Power is anyway an overrated quality. It helps, but at the highest level only if you can also box. And plentiful fighters were able to dominate their divisions without applying a particulalry powerful punch, as long as they punched fast and accurately and had good defensive skills. In fact, a fast, acurate, well-time punch can create desaster and havoc even if it is not particulalry powerful.

The young Tysons' particular ferocity resulted not only from power but power in combination with awesome handspeed and combination punching. He overwhelmed his opponents more than taking them out with single-handed shots.

Absolutely. In fact, the hardest punchers of all time are probably a bunch of guys nobody has ever heard of. Does anyone remember HW Joe Alexander form the 70s? An incredible puncher who had virtually no real skills other than a great punch. He never got beyond club fighter, but he pretty much scored a KD against everybody that he fought. Of course, he lost a lot of those fights, but pretty much when his punch landed, his opponent went down.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 26 Jul 2006, 12:06

The Great John L wrote:
pundit wrote:
The Great John L wrote: So what? Who exactly has Danny Willams fought that makes that statement worth anything?

Hell ya Tyson punched hard. Was his power over rated? I quess that depends on how you rate his power. If you say silly things like Tyson hit harder than Foreman because one of Tyson’s opponents did the “chicken dance”, then yes you are over rating his power. But if you say that he really didn’t hit very hard because he couldn’t KO Holyfield, then I’d say you’re under rating his power.
Power is anyway an overrated quality. It helps, but at the highest level only if you can also box. And plentiful fighters were able to dominate their divisions without applying a particulalry powerful punch, as long as they punched fast and accurately and had good defensive skills. In fact, a fast, acurate, well-time punch can create desaster and havoc even if it is not particulalry powerful.

The young Tysons' particular ferocity resulted not only from power but power in combination with awesome handspeed and combination punching. He overwhelmed his opponents more than taking them out with single-handed shots.
Absolutely. In fact, the hardest punchers of all time are probably a bunch of guys nobody has ever heard of. Does anyone remember HW Joe Alexander form the 70s? An incredible puncher who had virtually no real skills other than a great punch. He never got beyond club fighter, but he pretty much scored a KD against everybody that he fought. Of course, he lost a lot of those fights, but pretty much when his punch landed, his opponent went down.

I suppose even Stacy's Rick Dyer can muster some power.... Only jerks would believe though that he could go anywhere with this.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 26 Jul 2006, 19:43

granberry wrote:Ali quit in his corner as soon as Holmes finally started throwing some serious punches.

Pathetic.

.

Yeah. Especially when you remember Ali was in the absolute prime of his life.....

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 26 Jul 2006, 19:47

[quote="Decagon]Right now? I'm thinking of dropping Foreman to #8 and moving Holyfield up to #7. The reason I probably won't is consistency. [/quote]

As soon as you decide, let the Globe and The Star know, they're holding Page One....

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Jul 2006, 19:53

Joe Louis didn't quit in his corner against Marciano.

And that wasn't even a title fight.

Ali quit in his corner as soon as Holmes threw some serious punches.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 27 Jul 2006, 07:35

granberry wrote:Ali quit in his corner as soon as Holmes finally started throwing some serious punches.

Pathetic.

.

Dundee pulled Ali out & quite rightly.

Ali had Parkinson's syndrome & should never have been allowed to fight.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 27 Jul 2006, 08:21

Going by what who a specific fighter says hitting him the hardest probably isn't as reliable as you would think.
If a guy says that someone hit him harder than say Tyson (or Shavers or foreman or whoever) that may be because he has an axe to grind. He may not be honest.
Also it's possible that a fighter might not have been caught flush in his fight against a brutal puncher and therefore doesn't think that guy hits that hard.
Also he may he may have gotten hit with a trmendous shot from someone who woulkdn't be considered an awesome puncher by others; but he would rate that guy really high.

Hasim Rahman wis considered by most as being a hard puncher but by no means oone of the hardest pounchers ever. However, the punch he landed against Lewis in their first fight was about as awesome of a shot as you are going to see.
Wilfred Benitez wasn't considered a hard puncher by most people but Maurice Hope may think otherwise.

Was tysons power overrated?

Re: Was tysons power overrated?

re

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