The Fight That Never Was: Holmes vs Coetzee

[HomicideHenry]

Holmes was to get $13 million and Coetzee $8 million, but the finances fell through and this matchup failed to materialize. In the aftermath of this Holmes dropped the WBC title and fought Bonecrusher Smith for the newly created IBF title instead.

But how would Holmes-Coetzee have gone had it happened?

In 1983 Coetzee knocked out Michael Dokes to become WBA champion and Holmes had four fights against Rodriguez (W12), Witherspoon (WSD12), Frank (KO5), and Frazier (KO1).

In 1984, Larry Holmes went 12 competitive rounds with the 14-1-0 Smith and Coetzee would lose the WBA title to Greg Page in a rather controversial way as the 8th round went 4 minutes.

I think it would've been a pretty damn good scrap, since one man seemed to be either complacent or on the decline whereas the other man seemed to have peaked and suffered a bit of misfortune.

In 1985 Holmes beat Bey, Williams and lost to Spinks but it was evident as early as the Smith fight that he was slowing down. In 1985 Coetzee would win a decision over James Tillis, and after that began to decline rapidly.

Holmes title defenses were against decent/good opponents but they were so largely inexperienced that I think the experienced Coetzee would've made a great fight with Holmes.

Ultimately I do think that Holmes would've rallied back hard in the later rounds to get a close, narrow decision over Coetzee but I do think he would have been in a lot more trouble than what Smith, Witherspoon and Williams was able to do in the ring against Larry Holmes.

But I have little doubt it goes the whole 15 rounds unless Holmes was able to bust the South African up and get a technical knockout stoppage. Coetzee had been cut before in fights, but it never seemed to slow him down or distract him all that much as he kept pressing forward.

To put it all into better perspective here is Holmes/Smith and Coetzee/Page to kind of guage how such a contest might have gone:



Holmes vs Smith



Coetzee vs Page

[Caractacus]

Dokes and Coetzee had the fastest hands in the division back then.
I think I remember reading that they had brought in an American co-trainer in for this fight to work on Coetzee
using his left more. anyone know more about that, who that person was ?
They should have made Holmes vrs Coetzee just after this fight for November 1983 (instead of Holmes vrs Marvis Frazier).
instead ( for whatever reason)Coetzee did not fight again until December 1984 (against Greg Page)
September 1983

[DrDuke]

Holmes vs Coetzee would be about how Larry would win. Coetzee was a solid B-tier fighter of those times. Holmes won all such fighters he met, if not to count Williams, when Larry was past it. Coetzee could give Holmes a fight, but it's hard to imagine him winning. Holmes simply was on a different level.

[Caractacus]

yeah, June 1984 would have been the ideal date for it.
anyway Coetzee broke his right hand (again) on the cranium
of Michael Dokes with that last punch, so he would not have been ready in November 1983 for another title shot
that soon after.

[HomicideHenry]

In 1983 and 1984, when they were talking about this fight, I remember thinking that Coetzee had a serious chance of upsetting Holmes. But in retrospect, I realize I was wrong. Truth is that Larry was a level or more above Coetzee. As good as the prime Coetzee was, he wouldn't have been able to handle a Larry Holmes.

Holmes started to show his vulnerability when he fought the rather inexperienced Witherspoon. From that point on the experts and the critics were calling him old. For the Smith fight that's all anyone could talk about was how old Holmes was, and Smith was pretty inexperienced but still gave him a hard fight.

That 1983-1984 period would have been very interesting had him and Coetzee clashed, because Larry was showing signs of slowing down while Coetzee had a pretty fast and hard right hand. I think Larry would have won but it probably would have went the entire 15 rounds with Coetzee being dangerous in the middle rounds.

[Riddick Bowie]

Holmes would surely win, probably on points, but with Coetzee's bionic fist creating some scares along the way.

And then Holmes would vacate another belt rather than fight Greg Page, Page would KO Coetzee for the vacant title, and after that the timelines realign, with alternate reality merging with actual reality, and everything playing out exactly as it did.

[Caractacus]

October 1983
( check out that 'stare-down" to the re-porter at 1:38 of this clip)

[bwu]

DrDuke pretty much called this one. Billy Tully, as well. However, as to Holmes-Page, I would submit a different perspective.

As a big Holmes fan, I was initially a little uncomfortable with how the Page situation was handled. However, after seeing Larry go against Tyson in '88, Mercer in '92 and McCall in '95, I genuinely do not believe that Holmes avoided Page. I'm convinced that it was all about the dollars; Holmes would've fought anybody as long as the money was there. I've always heard that he was offered more for Frazier than Page, hence the abandonment of the WBC title.

I don't think Holmes would've vacated another belt rather than fight Greg. The latter probably wouldn't even be considered for a shot. The only reason he got a crack at Coetzee was because David Bey wouldn't go to South Africa. Page's record from '84-87 was 4-6. The four wins included the title victory with the four minute round, a DQ over Funso Banjo and a controversial majority decision over James Broad. Page was a very talented man, but in taking an honest look at his ledger at the time, even a faded Holmes didn't really have to worry.

[HomicideHenry]

That's a possibility.

Spoon did eventually become a damn good heavyweight, being a two-time champion, but in 1983-1984 it's a harder thing to determine. If he was better than Coetzee it had to be by a little rather than a lot.

Let's examine 1982. The only two opponents of consequence he had was Alonzo Ratliff (13-0) and Renaldo Snipes (22-1-1). Everyone else he fought was a combined 82-39-5. Then he had the split decision loss to Larry Holmes.

Now, Coetzee had fought Snipes in 1981. He "lost" a controversial 10 round split decision. Mind you, it was this controversial win that got Snipes a shot at Larry Holmes where he lost by 11th round knockout.

So Coetzee and Spoon were basically evenly matched. Both men in that 1982-1984 timeframe would win alphabet titles. Coetzee would beat Dokes for the WBA title, and Spoon would beat Greg Page for the WBC title.

Interestingly enough, Spoon lost to Pinklon Thomas in 1984 while Coetzee had a draw with him in 1983. So both Spoon and Coetzee were very evenly matched.

Of course after 1985 Coetzee was on the decline, as he would lose to Frank Bruno by first round kayo in 1986 and wouldn't fight again until 1993. Spoon in 1986 would kayo Bruno in 11 rounds in defense of the WBA title he won from Tony Tubbs.

However that timeframe of 1982-1984 certainly would have been an interesting one had the two men met in the ring. It's possible that Spoon would have one over the South African but I can see Coetzee winning as well especially if it was 1982 or early 1983.

[Caractacus]

a little off topic, but that reminds me.
hey HH have you ever read the books by Jim Tully ?
he was from Ohio too.
He sounded like an author thats up your alley.
( one of the first of the "Hard-Boiled" writers)

[HomicideHenry]

a little off topic, but that reminds me.
hey HH have you ever read the books by Jim Tully ?
he was from Ohio too.
He sounded like an author thats up your alley.
( one of the first of the "Hard-Boiled" writers)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Tully

I'm a bit ashamed to say I never heard of the man until you mentioned him. St Mary's Ohio was not far at all from where I grew up. But it does say he left the area and went to Kent, Ohio which is around Akron so that's probably why I never heard of him.

There definitely was a lot of roughneck types in the Miami Valley and along the Erie Canal. Occasionally you will see in the old newspapers prize fights being stopped by police, etc--- which is why I commented years ago in my "John L. Sullivan The Early Years" thread that the record of Paddy Ryan surely had to be incomplete since he was described as "Champion of the Great Lakes & Miami-Erie Canal."

Ohio was in a lot of ways the epicenter of America for quite a long time due to the Ohio River connecting into both the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. You wanted to get anywhere you had to go through Ohio--- and quite frankly many of the great writers, sportsmen, etc frequented the state quite often.

I will have to see if any of his books are available online via Project Gutenberg since his works have to be public domain. Thanks for pointing him out to me. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

P.S. his book "Shanty Irish" definitely looks appealing to me considering there were quite a lot of Shanty Irish villages and communities where I grew up and it's rather sad to read how the German and Swiss and English immigrants treated these people.

Not so long ago I told a website called "Ohio Ghost Town" about the village of St Patrick in Shelby county because they did not have it listed. It was not far from Fort Loramie where I went to school. I got to see the old Catholic Church before it was tore down. The only thing left of that village is one or two houses.

[Nile4000]

Holmes stops Coetzee in the 13th or 14th. Jab was too strong, and though Gerrie would give Larry a couple of shakes, he wins no more than 3 to 4 rounds here. And Coetzee wasn't faster than Page, or Snipes.

[Caractacus]

yeah, I had never really heard of Jim Tully before either(unless I forgot about him) until Henry Armstrong briefly mentioned him in his autobiography
GOD GLOVES AND GLORY (1952)
about reading a book of his before Armstrong went "Hobo-ing" himself to California in the late 1920's.
BEGGARS OF LIFE (published in 1924 is Jim Tully's most well known book and was considered a 'guide-book" by many
for Hoboing across America n the 1930's)

[Caractacus]

and here it is (again).

[goose 5]

Jackie McCoy was credited with improving Gerrie's left hand- a great trainer, indeed.