Brain damage (CTE) in past eras

[Controversial]

More recently this topic has made me question my love of boxing. Obviously brain injuries are not a modern phenomenon but with advances in medical science and a lot more awareness of it, these injuries are being identified sooner and people are a lot more aware of the dangers of boxing. Other sports are now introducing stricter rules to minimize brain trauma.

So this got me thinking, many of the old timers had numerous fights and wars. Fighters like Moore, SRR, Zivic, Pep, Greg etc had over 200 fights, plenty of others had over 100 or close to it. Add into that 15 round fights, smaller gloves, referees that didn't jump in quick, no 3 knockdown rules etc... it must mean there were many fighters were competing that likely had some form of brain damage.

Thoughts?

[Controversial]

More generally, a much higher proportion of young lads used to box in the early decades of the 20th Century than is the case today and the 'punch drunk' old boxer was unfortunately a common sight back in the day.

I can remember seeing these guys when I was a kid, they'd probably have been boxers back in the 1930s and '40s.

For sure, classic case of fighting to feed themselves or family in those times, long term effects of being punched in the head were not really known about.

[Jaywheel]

^^ Thanks for sharing.

[Controversial]

More recently this topic has made me question my love of boxing. Obviously brain injuries are not a modern phenomenon but with advances in medical science and a lot more awareness of it, these injuries are being identified sooner and people are a lot more aware of the dangers of boxing. Other sports are now introducing stricter rules to minimize brain trauma.

So this got me thinking, many of the old timers had numerous fights and wars. Fighters like Moore, SRR, Zivic, Pep, Greg etc had over 200 fights, plenty of others had over 100 or close to it. Add into that 15 round fights, smaller gloves, referees that didn't jump in quick, no 3 knockdown rules etc... it must mean there were many fighters were competing that likely had some form of brain damage.

Thoughts?

I'm not well informed about the topic of CTE in boxers. I've read about it, but I haven't read that deeply on the subject. Like you, what I have read about pugilistica dementia has made me question my love of boxing too.

Nonetheless, in answer to your question about old timers, it's my understanding that 21st century physicians and scientists are saying roughly 20% of all boxers will develop CTE. That includes pros and amateurs. I assume this means 80% of all boxers will probably not get CTE, regardless of how much punishment they take.

So, concerning the old timers you are concerned with, my assumption is that 20% of them became "punch drunk," as the term was known back in the day. 80% of the old timers didn't get it.

A 20% casualty rate is pretty damned high. Scary.

Someone like Jake LaMotta, for example, must have been part of the lucky 80%. I remember seeing him on late night talk shoes when he was well into his 80's. He seemed sharp as a tack to me.

I listened to a podcast with ex-pro fighter Tony Jeffries, he retired due to an hand problems but he later took part in a medical trial in the USA regarding brain damage on athletes. Even though he looked and felt fine the scans showed a split in his brain. What was frightening was the medical team said 50% of all the fighters they scanned had the same brain split. Maybe not affecting them now but chances are as the years roll on there will be the early onset of dementia or other issues. I remember Carl Froch saying after one of his fights he had a lengthy chat with someone and couldn't even remember it, basically his memory was so affected from the fight he had no recollection.

[Controversial]

Nonetheless, in answer to your question about old timers, it's my understanding that 21st century physicians and scientists are saying roughly 20% of all boxers will develop CTE. That includes pros and amateurs. I assume this means 80% of all boxers will probably not get CTE, regardless of how much punishment they take.

So, concerning the old timers you are concerned with, my assumption is that 20% of them became "punch drunk," as the term was known back in the day. 80% of the old timers didn't get it.

A 20% casualty rate is pretty damned high. Scary.

Someone like Jake LaMotta, for example, must have been part of the lucky 80%. I remember seeing him on late night talk shoes when he was well into his 80's. He seemed sharp as a tack to me.

All I would say if that is true that boxing was a lot harder back in the day, less checks and balances, more fights, more lenient refs etc... I imagine the damage they took back then was worse. So maybe they can say 20% now but would that be the same for every era?

[HomicideHenry]

In the bare knuckle era this kind of injury was extremely rare because most of the damage that occurred was superficial, and you simply couldn't throw punches as much as you wanted because your hands started to hurt almost immediately.

The creation of the rules that govern boxing for the past hundred and twenty years, may make for more exciting fights and look like a more cleaner and professional business--- but has only increased brain trauma.

The bigger the gloves, the shorter the rounds, the shorter the contests, only forced the athletes to fight not only harder than they normally would have but at a higher pace than they normally would have.

When gloves were skintight or three ounces at best, boxers relied heavily on body punching more than anything else--- opening up on your opponent going head hunting was quite the gamble because you would more likely break your hands.

Which is why a lot of the fight films from the early 20th century was slow paced, and a lot of clinching. These were tactical men, of course, but they also had a great deal of common sense.

Once the gloves became six ounces, then eight ounces, and ten ounces--- well you can hit a guy all day long and rarely break your hands or hurt your hands. Especially with gloves becoming fitted with foam rather than horsehair.

If you ever saw a death or serious injury in the bare knuckle days it was mostly due to pre-existing conditions fighters had, or it was due to the allowance of wrestling maneuvers where people sometimes were suplexed on their head, etc--- whereas in the passed 120 years the deaths and serious injuries have only piled up.

Headgear, too, has been a detriment to boxing on the amateur level especially because people had the mindset that it cushioned blows so they threw all caution to the wind allowing themselves to be hit instead of employing defense at all times.

But what people will do, overreacting, is to make fights shorter and the gloves bigger which in my view is not going to change anything. If anything it will make things more worse than it already is because it will force people to fight faster and harder to make more of an impact.

[dagosd2000]

Check out this documentary, called After the Last Round. It was produced about ten or 12 years ago. It investigates brain damage in boxers, and focuses on the Moyer brothers in particular. There are many interviews with boxing pundits, fighters, their families, with physicians and neurologists.

Thanks for sharing this.I have posted many times my experiences palling around with Denny Moyer and his stablemate Ronnie Wilson when both were fighting mainly in San Diego.This was in the 70's. Denny was managed by Sid Flaherty as was Ronnie.Ronnie was at that time beginning to lose his focus on boxing.That is the training end of it. He was acquiring a fondness for alcohol which was leading to other problems,social and physical. Sid thought that Denny would be a stabling influence if he sent for him to come down from Portland to keep an eye on Wilson.Just the other way around.Denny was beginning to slip badly and was fighting just to pay the bills and also was imbibing..Denny and Ronnie would go out drinking together and sometimes they'd let me tag along.I thought it was cool to hang out with these guys.I was in my 20's and was about as dumb as they come. I'd watch them fight at the San Diego Coliseum. They were both taking a lot of shots by that time.They'd cut easily and Flaherty would have them back in the ring before those cuts would heal properly. But that is the way they wanted things.They wanted to fight as often as they could to earn a few bucks.They didn't seem to care about anything even though it was evident that their careers were in the tank.The ring commission docs would give them the Ok to get back in the ring when any physician with a moral code would have prohibited them from fighting anymore. They'd be fighting with a hangover.They'd mask the pain with drugs.I sometimes think that most of these guys who wind up with the dementia don't even feel the punches because they're senses are numbed by some drug.But then half the time the commissions don't even check to see what these guys have ingested into their systems before a fight of after.

The object of the game is to punch a guy in the head as hard as you can.There is no glove or headgear that will prevent brain damage. I told Chris Smith at the West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame banquet that the next book he should write should be about these fighters' wives and families.Promoters are pimps.Who in their right mind would want to make money off of two guys who want to punch each other in the head?It's a sick sport that should be banned.Most fight fans live their dreams like a Walter Mitty watching these fighters punch each other in the head and wishing wish they had the fortitude to do that.

Now you're wondering why I post every day on a boxing forum. In the beginning I was still as dumb as they come.I'd shoot off my mouth making wisecracks and using fighters as verbal punching bags. The years have changed me. I post trying to convey that boxing is the most bittersweet of sports.But at first bite the sugar is on the tongue,but then leaves a taste at the end that you want to spit out of your mouth.

Thanks again Joe Kelly for leaving that taste in my mouth.

[dagosd2000]

Check out this documentary, called After the Last Round. It was produced about ten or 12 years ago. It investigates brain damage in boxers, and focuses on the Moyer brothers in particular. There are many interviews with boxing pundits, fighters, their families, with physicians and neurologists.

Thanks for sharing this.I have posted many times my experiences palling around with Denny Moyer and his stablemate Ronnie Wilson when both were fighting mainly in San Diego.This was in the 70's. Denny was managed by Sid Flaherty as was Ronnie.Ronnie was at that time beginning to lose his focus on boxing.That is the training end of it. He was acquiring a fondness for alcohol which was leading to other problems,social and physical. Sid thought that Denny would be a stabling influence if he sent for him to come down from Portland to keep an eye on Wilson.Just the other way around.Denny was beginning to slip badly and was fighting just to pay the bills and also was imbibing..Denny and Ronnie would go out drinking together and sometimes they'd let me tag along.I thought it was cool to hang out with these guys.I was in my 20's and was about as dumb as they come. I'd watch them fight at the San Diego Coliseum. They were both taking a lot of shots by that time.They'd cut easily and Flaherty would have them back in the ring before those cuts would heal properly. But that is the way they wanted things.They wanted to fight as often as they could to earn a few bucks.They didn't seem to care about anything even though it was evident that their careers were in the tank.The ring commission docs would give them the Ok to get back in the ring when any physician with a moral code would have prohibited them from fighting anymore. They'd be fighting with a hangover.They'd mask the pain with drugs.I sometimes think that most of these guys who wind up with the dementia don't even feel the punches because they're senses are numbed by some drug.But then half the time the commissions don't even check to see what these guys have ingested into their systems before a fight of after.

The object of the game is to punch a guy in the head as hard as you can.There is no glove or headgear that will prevent brain damage. I told Chris Smith at the West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame banquet that the next book he should write should be about these fighters' wives and families.Promoters are pimps.Who in their right mind would want to make money off of two guys who want to punch each other in the head?It's a sick sport that should be banned.Most fight fans live their dreams like a Walter Mitty watching these fighters punch each other in the head and wishing wish they had the fortitude to do that.

Now you're wondering why I post every day on a boxing forum. In the beginning I was still as dumb as they come.I'd shoot off my mouth making wisecracks and using fighters as verbal punching bags. The years have changed me. I post trying to convey that boxing is the most bittersweet of sports.But at first bite the sugar is on the tongue,but then leaves a taste at the end that you want to spit out of your mouth.

Thanks again Joe Kelly for leaving that taste in my mouth.

Great post.

Curiously, are you from San Diego? If so, were at ringside in March 1978, when Mike Quarry fought Pete McIntyre? That was the real demise of Mike Quarry. it was supposed to be a easy tune-up fight for Mike, who was on the comeback trail. McIntyre was big for a light-heavyweight (185 lbs) strong, and powerful, but the word was that he couldn't fight a lick. Given that McIntyre's record was 6-8-1, it appeared to be an easy fight for Quarry.

But in the third or fourth round, Quarry got clipped by some bazooka powerful shots from McIntyre. Quarry was out on his feet, and hit the canvas a couple of times before the fight was over. It went into the books as a KO5 win for McIntyre.

Here's the scary part about it. Mike Quarry claims he didn't remember a thing after that fight for three days. Think about that. For three straight, Quarry's acute brain injury was so severe that he didn't even remember that he had been in a fight, or that he had had been knocked out. During that period he didn't even have a clue as to Pete McIntyre was.

When I read that part of Mike Quarry's story, I felt a cold chill run down my spine. It made me realize how dangerous boxing can be, even for good fighters like Quarry, Wilson, and Moyer.

Yes I was there.He dropped like a ton of bricks. He should have quit after that fight.Scary for sure.

[Controversial]

More generally, a much higher proportion of young lads used to box in the early decades of the 20th Century than is the case today and the 'punch drunk' old boxer was unfortunately a common sight back in the day.

I can remember seeing these guys when I was a kid, they'd probably have been boxers back in the 1930s and '40s.

For sure, classic case of fighting to feed themselves or family in those times, long term effects of being punched in the head were not really known about.

Oh, I think they knew about it alright, the notion of being punch drunk was pretty well established 100 years ago, or more. But people took more chances and there were fewer alternatives back then. Different times, etc.

Sure, badly worded on my part, I was referring to the fighters starting out in those times, many were uneducated in these things, especially youngsters, whereas today with the internet etc these type of issues are far more well known and discussed.

[Controversial]

I told Chris Smith at the West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame banquet that the next book he should write should be about these fighters' wives and families.Promoters are pimps.Who in their right mind would want to make money off of two guys who want to punch each other in the head?It's a sick sport that should be banned.Most fight fans live their dreams like a Walter Mitty watching these fighters punch each other in the head and wishing wish they had the fortitude to do that.

There is a recently released book by boxing journalist Tris Dixon called 'Damage: The Untold Story of Brain Trauma in Boxing' which might interest you.

"It’s an old story―a fighter gains fame, drives fast cars, makes piles of cash, and dates beautiful women. Then comes the fall―booze, drugs, depression, poverty, illness. This dark narrative has been playing out for a hundred years.

Doctors first identified “Punch Drunk Syndrome” in 1928. It later became known as “Dementia Pugilistica.” Today, we call it CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy). The secret history of this disease in boxing has never been fully told― until now.

In Damage, Tris Dixon uncovers the difficult truths of boxing and CTE and chronicles the lives of fighters affected by it. He interviews some of the sport’s biggest names, some lesser-known journeymen, and highly respected trainers and other figures to try to understand why no one wants to discuss CTE or take responsibility for it. Ultimately, Dixon takes aim at what boxing can do to help the warriors who sacrifice their health seeking glory in the ring. Will this book finally drive the sport to address the issue and help fighters get the help they deserve?"

[HomicideHenry]

Benetiz, if anything, ended up the way that he did because of the dehydration and rehydration process that goes on in the lower weight classes. Guys lose a lot of weight, which is mostly water, and try to put it back on overnight.

Then you start taking blows to the head, and you may not have enough water in your system, since your brain is surrounded in basically water and that's causes a lot of damage to the brain.

Long ago I watched a documentary on Gerald McClellan and why he ended up the way that he did, and the medical professionals said it was because of the dehydration and rehydration process being ultimately the root cause because he didn't have enough fluid around his brain to protect his brain.

Benetiz was the kind of man who would take an excessive amount of laxatives in order to lose weight, etc--- so it's not surprising to me that he has ended up the way that he has.

Then again everybody is built different. Jake LaMotta took a lot of punishment and was mentally sharp as a tack until the day he died. George Chuvalo and Tex Cobb took tremendous beatings and they are still as quick-witted as they ever were. Yet somebody like Floyd Patterson ended up with Alzheimer's disease.

You would think somebody who seldom ever got hit, and could dance around for 10 or 12 or 15 rounds wouldn't end up that way--- but I reckon the longer fights go on, and you have any real lengthy career at all, it's the accumulation of punches you take over time that what gets you.

I've seen many journeymen who had hundreds of fights like Reggie Strickland but can talk normally, etc--- but then you look at somebody like Evander Holyfield or James Toney and they can't even talk right most of the time.

[Controversial]

Benetiz, if anything, ended up the way that he did because of the dehydration and rehydration process that goes on in the lower weight classes. Guys lose a lot of weight, which is mostly water, and try to put it back on overnight.

Then you start taking blows to the head, and you may not have enough water in your system, since your brain is surrounded in basically water and that's causes a lot of damage to the brain.

Long ago I watched a documentary on Gerald McClellan and why he ended up the way that he did, and the medical professionals said it was because of the dehydration and rehydration process being ultimately the root cause because he didn't have enough fluid around his brain to protect his brain.

Benetiz was the kind of man who would take an excessive amount of laxatives in order to lose weight, etc--- so it's not surprising to me that he has ended up the way that he has.

Then again everybody is built different. Jake LaMotta took a lot of punishment and was mentally sharp as a tack until the day he died. George Chuvalo and Tex Cobb took tremendous beatings and they are still as quick-witted as they ever were. Yet somebody like Floyd Patterson ended up with Alzheimer's disease.

You would think somebody who seldom ever got hit, and could dance around for 10 or 12 or 15 rounds wouldn't end up that way--- but I reckon the longer fights go on, and you have any real lengthy career at all, it's the accumulation of punches you take over time that what gets you.

I've seen many journeymen who had hundreds of fights like Reggie Strickland but can talk normally, etc--- but then you look at somebody like Evander Holyfield or James Toney and they can't even talk right most of the time.

Weight cutting is a big problem. Sparring too, so many have gym wars. The journeyman types who have loads of fights aren't often beaten up and many don't spar as they don't want injuries because they want to be onto the next paid fight.

[HomicideHenry]

Then again everybody is built different. Jake LaMotta took a lot of punishment and was mentally sharp as a tack until the day he died. George Chuvalo and Tex Cobb took tremendous beatings and they are still as quick-witted as they ever were. Yet somebody like Floyd Patterson ended up with Alzheimer's disease.

Chuvalo developed CTE in recent years. It progressed quickly, and allegedly he is no longer able to find his way around his own house. One of his sons however still takes George into public places, like pubs, so he can mingle with the public. But he needs lots of assistance.

This is just one of several articles out there documenting Chuvalo's decline. It's from 2018. I think it's his son Mitch who is the go-to person concerning George's welfare now.
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/20 ... champ.html

The sudden cognitive decline of Chuvalo took everyone by surprise, I think. I know that as recently as the early 2010's he was reported to be very cogent and mentally organized. At that time, it looked like he gotten through his career without any brain damage. But sadly, the opposite turned out to be true.

I was not aware he came down with cognitive issues, but if I'm not mistaken he's 84 years old now so he would have been 80 at the time of his diagnosis.

I'm not exactly sure you could blame that necessarily on boxing. I'm reminded of Gene Fullmer and he didn't come down with Alzheimer's until his '90s.

True it's a contributing factor but I tend to blame those particular cases on diseases of old age more than pugilistic dementia.

A real sad case was a couple of years ago where I wanted to interview Duane Bobick and had about a 15-minute phone call with his wife informing me that she had to put him in an adult day care center while she was at work because he basically could no longer take care of himself because of pugilistic dementia.

[AngryGoon38]

Check out this documentary, called After the Last Round. It was produced about ten or 12 years ago. It investigates brain damage in boxers, and focuses on the Moyer brothers in particular. There are many interviews with boxing pundits, fighters, their families, with physicians and neurologists.

Thanks for sharing this.I have posted many times my experiences palling around with Denny Moyer and his stablemate Ronnie Wilson when both were fighting mainly in San Diego.This was in the 70's. Denny was managed by Sid Flaherty as was Ronnie.Ronnie was at that time beginning to lose his focus on boxing.That is the training end of it. He was acquiring a fondness for alcohol which was leading to other problems,social and physical. Sid thought that Denny would be a stabling influence if he sent for him to come down from Portland to keep an eye on Wilson.Just the other way around.Denny was beginning to slip badly and was fighting just to pay the bills and also was imbibing..Denny and Ronnie would go out drinking together and sometimes they'd let me tag along.I thought it was cool to hang out with these guys.I was in my 20's and was about as dumb as they come. I'd watch them fight at the San Diego Coliseum. They were both taking a lot of shots by that time.They'd cut easily and Flaherty would have them back in the ring before those cuts would heal properly. But that is the way they wanted things.They wanted to fight as often as they could to earn a few bucks.They didn't seem to care about anything even though it was evident that their careers were in the tank.The ring commission docs would give them the Ok to get back in the ring when any physician with a moral code would have prohibited them from fighting anymore. They'd be fighting with a hangover.They'd mask the pain with drugs.I sometimes think that most of these guys who wind up with the dementia don't even feel the punches because they're senses are numbed by some drug.But then half the time the commissions don't even check to see what these guys have ingested into their systems before a fight of after.

The object of the game is to punch a guy in the head as hard as you can.There is no glove or headgear that will prevent brain damage. I told Chris Smith at the West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame banquet that the next book he should write should be about these fighters' wives and families.Promoters are pimps.Who in their right mind would want to make money off of two guys who want to punch each other in the head?It's a sick sport that should be banned.Most fight fans live their dreams like a Walter Mitty watching these fighters punch each other in the head and wishing wish they had the fortitude to do that.

Now you're wondering why I post every day on a boxing forum. In the beginning I was still as dumb as they come.I'd shoot off my mouth making wisecracks and using fighters as verbal punching bags. The years have changed me. I post trying to convey that boxing is the most bittersweet of sports.But at first bite the sugar is on the tongue,but then leaves a taste at the end that you want to spit out of your mouth.

Thanks again Joe Kelly for leaving that taste in my mouth.

Great post.

Curiously, are you from San Diego? If so, were at ringside in March 1978, when Mike Quarry fought Pete McIntyre? That was the real demise of Mike Quarry. it was supposed to be a easy tune-up fight for Mike, who was on the comeback trail. McIntyre was big for a light-heavyweight (185 lbs) strong, and powerful, but the word was that he couldn't fight a lick. Given that McIntyre's record was 6-8-1, it appeared to be an easy fight for Quarry.

But in the third or fourth round, Quarry got clipped by some bazooka powerful shots from McIntyre. Quarry was out on his feet, and hit the canvas a couple of times before the fight was over. It went into the books as a KO5 win for McIntyre.

Here's the scary part about it. Mike Quarry claims he didn't remember a thing after that fight for three days. Think about that. For three straight, Quarry's acute brain injury was so severe that he didn't even remember that he had been in a fight, or that he had had been knocked out. During that period he didn't even have a clue as to Pete McIntyre was.

When I read that part of Mike Quarry's story, I felt a cold chill run down my spine. It made me realize how dangerous boxing can be, even for good fighters like Quarry, Wilson, and Moyer.

How about that boxer "Tommy Evans" ?
He fought Mike Quarry. Evans won by ko or tko, in round 8.
Evans went 17-2-1 with 16 ko's. Just looking at his photo,he looks like the John L Sullivan type,a 70's lumberjack type of boxer,placed inappropriately into a world of studio 54 and Ron Jeremy antics.

Evans just suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth,in 1979,at only 26,while looking at least an old 36 at that time. He was on a winning streak as well. I'm guessing that he quite possibly had early onset brain damage, due to bar fights more than his actual ring bouts. Perhaps Our Yoda Boxing Guru of Knowledge "HomocideHenry" can fill in the Much Wondered about details of this particular forgotten boxer.

P.s.- I sincerely apologize for the blatant thread HiJack.
I just thought to bring up Evans,being that he Did box vs Mike Quarry.
And his sudden disappearance strikes me as possibly Being c.t.e related.
I have at least a bit of this affliction myself.
It is frighteningly debilitating, and typically unannounced, at random moments during the day,or night,or even in dreams for that matter.

[margaret thatcher]

a sh!it load of brain rattlings in sparring too

[Controversial]

There was a documentary about British LHW Freddie Mills which was about his life but suggested his decline and later suicide was due to brain damage suffered by boxing.

Also Jermaine Taylor (crime), NFL star Aaron Hernandez (murders and later suicide) and wrester Chris Benoit (suicide) to name a few have been linked to CTE issues.

[bollocks]

Some trainers and managers have a lot to answer to and that includes some of the biggest names in the game. Ali was slurring his words well before his career was over yet his trainers and managers chose to ignore it. Ditto Wilfred Benitez being fed to the lions later in his career. Everyone knew he was going to get knocked silly and damaged even further. Tommy Hearns was another one with slurred speech which became progressively worse, it was even mentioned in the boxing mags. The whole world knew about it

[Controversial]

Some trainers and managers have a lot to answer to and that includes some of the biggest names in the game. Ali was slurring his words well before his career was over yet his trainers and managers chose to ignore it. Ditto Wilfred Benitez being fed to the lions later in his career. Everyone knew he was going to get knocked silly and damaged even further. Tommy Hearns was another one with slurred speech which became progressively worse, it was even mentioned in the boxing mags. The whole world knew about it

Absolutely. In many ways it's an awful sport, boxers are often fleeced and taken advantage of. They are effectively pimped out. Add into that it's probably the most corrupt of sports too, makes me question myself sometimes. Would I want my children to box professionally, no way.

[Caractacus]

I think in the classic 1956 film THE HARDER THEY FALL with Humphrey Bogart
the subject was addressed and known about back then.
In the movie they briefly interview Joey Greb who was 'punch drunk" and living on 'skid-row"

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/009448

[p4p1]

a sh!it load of brain rattlings in sparring too

I believe I read somewhere that experts are all but certain that this is where the majority of damage comes from. It makes sense, fighters will spar most days of the week and a handful of times in a year. Did the guys who used to fight nearly every week still bother sparring? I would predict maybe not due to the danger of a cut or something like that ruling them out for the next week. It could help explain why some guys who had 100s of fights appeared OK damage wise compared to others who didn't.

I also have a theory, that is admittedly not based on any evidence other than my own thoughts that the trauma done earlier in life ie guys that start fighting from 10-14 or earlier (Benitez being a great example) has a worse impact than if that same damage was done to a fighter that was fully grown. I'm not sure if it's true or not but it is just a theory I have.

[Controversial]

a sh!it load of brain rattlings in sparring too

I believe I read somewhere that experts are all but certain that this is where the majority of damage comes from. It makes sense, fighters will spar most days of the week and a handful of times in a year. Did the guys who used to fight nearly every week still bother sparring? I would predict maybe not due to the danger of a cut or something like that ruling them out for the next week. It could help explain why some guys who had 100s of fights appeared OK damage wise compared to others who didn't.

I also have a theory, that is admittedly not based on any evidence other than my own thoughts that the trauma done earlier in life ie guys that start fighting from 10-14 or earlier (Benitez being a great example) has a worse impact than if that same damage was done to a fighter that was fully grown. I'm not sure if it's true or not but it is just a theory I have.

I’ve certainly heard journeymen who have had lots of fights say they don’t bother sparring, fighting regularly keeps them fit and they don’t spar as they don’t want to risk getting cut or injured and losing out on their next payday.

[Controversial]

Donald Curry is in a bad way too, awful.

[hhaehre]

I also have a theory, that is admittedly not based on any evidence other than my own thoughts that the trauma done earlier in life ie guys that start fighting from 10-14 or earlier (Benitez being a great example) has a worse impact than if that same damage was done to a fighter that was fully grown. I'm not sure if it's true or not but it is just a theory I have.

That would fit with the Quarry brothers who boxed from a very early age.

[nobleart1978]

I boxed as an amateur when I was in my teens. Used to have terrible migraines if I took a good shot. They would only go off after I vomited. Had to stop in the end. Had a burst eardrum too at one point which has never healed properly.

Funnily enough, I always used to think I got damaged more in sparring.

A couple of journeymen pros from the 80s in my area are in their late fifties now but walk with a gait or keep repeating themselves.

[JamesPhilips]

Anyone read Tris Dixon's book? Damaged. I have read only 3 chapters so can't comment yet but so far it's been very interesting