Time to end the myth that Lennox was'nt one of the very best

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 27 Jul 2006, 09:14

The guy was never outboxed.
Please don't point to the Mercer fight.Lewis landed over a hundred punches more than Ray,and was definately worth his win.
The only time he was visibly losing a fight was against Klitschko,and even this was debatable.It did'nt matter because he stopped him anyway.

Lewis is criticized for his 'weak' chin.
Yet he was officially knocked down only twice in his career,to huge one off punches.Whilst he was stopped soundly by Rahman,the McCall ko was different.He was up at 6,and the stoppage was premature.
Compare this to guy's that are highly ranked all time by most-
Joe Louis(considered THE very best Heavy by many,including me)He was down ten times and stopped twice.
Patterson down twenty time and stopped five times.
Even the extremely tough Joe Frazier was down eleven times and stopped three times.
The shots that stopped Lewis would have stopped 90% of heavyweights.
He took punches from Tyson,Tua,Mercer,Klitschko,Briggs,Ruddock,Morrison and Tucker.All very big punchers,yet he took their shots.

He was continuosly dodged by Bowe,who did'nt want no part of Lewis(maybe he remembered the olympic final?)
He was also dodged by Tyson when he was released from prison.

Lennox beat every man he ever fought.

The guy is easily top 5 all time.Maybe even higher.
He is'nt given the plaudits he deserves because he was his own man,who did things his own way.He was'nt Ameriacn,and refused to base himself solely in America,which never went down well with the US press.Indeed,I remember when Lewis battered Tyson,did'nt the commentator insist that Wladimir Klitschko was the best in the division at that point!!Despite Lewis dominating for years!!! Show's you what he was up against.

Time for all the haters to finally admit he was a true Heavyweight legend.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 27 Jul 2006, 09:22

Time for you to delete this post and re-post it in the Boxers of the past forum. :x

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 27 Jul 2006, 09:39

......where we will be glad to help you uncover the facts and delve deeper into the mystery of why he is not and should not be considered "top five" material.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:03

BoxBuzz wrote:......where we will be glad to help you uncover the facts and delve deeper into the mystery of why he is not and should not be considered "top five" material.

what he said

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:16

sorry fella's!!!

i've posted it in the other forum...just not sure how I go about deleting this thread

RScarf1 · Post by **RScarf1** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:25

I think Lewis is in the top 10. I don't know about the top 5.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:39

Top 20 definetly
Top 15 yes
Top 10 probably
Top 5 No

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:40

Top 10, yes
Top 5, depends on who you ask.
Top 3, no f-in way.

Lennox gets downgraded because of his Klitschko performance and the fact he was boring to watch in a lot of his big fights.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:48

i'd say definitely top 10.top 5 can be argued for him and if other top 5 fighters are put under the same scrutiny i think he fairs well.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:54

But surely it's not about how exciting a guy makes a fight?
If thats the case then Arturo Gatti is top 10 all time p4p.....

It's about achievements,talent,domination.

I could never rate Johnson,Holyfield,Langford,Dempsey,Tyson,Foreman,Frazier,Liston etc above Lewis.
I think he would have beat all of them in their primes,and think he more than matched most of them for achievements.

My top 3 would be Louis first,then Holmes and Ali,not sure in which order though.
The only other heavy I could rank above Lewis is Marciano,and that is based purely on his remarkable record.I certainly don't think Rocky would have beat Lewis.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:56

yiddo14 wrote:I could never rate Johnson,Holyfield,Langford,Dempsey,Tyson,Foreman,Frazier,Liston etc above Lewis.
I think he would have beat all of them in their primes

So why do you think so?
For example in the case of prime Foreman (1973)?

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 27 Jul 2006, 11:01

pundit wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:I could never rate Johnson,Holyfield,Langford,Dempsey,Tyson,Foreman,Frazier,Liston etc above Lewis.
I think he would have beat all of them in their primes
So why do you think so?
For example in the case of prime Foreman (1973)?

Lewis has never been afraid of a fighter.
Foreman(in his prime)beat most of his fighters before the bell went.It was similar to early Tyson.
Foreman was a huge puncher with a decent set of whiskers,but what could he do better than Lewis? Lewis had far more boxing ability,and was probably physically stronger.
Would say Foreman probably edges Lewis in one punch power,but it's very close.
Also,I think he was too strong mentally for Foreman.Of course,the fight would'nt have been a formality!!But I would certainly have backed Lewis.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 27 Jul 2006, 11:13

Lewis has never been afraid of a fighter.

Noone claimed that.

Foreman(in his prime)beat most of his fighters before the bell went.It was similar to early Tyson.

Not really. Tyson overwhelmed his opponents more with speed and combination punching. Foreman through them off-balance, often by hitting only the defense, and then rushed in. Balance wasn't Lewis' strongest point, btw. Even Shannon Briggs threw him off-balance; had Foreman been in the ring instead of Briggs, oh boy.....

Foreman was a huge puncher with a decent set of whiskers,but what could he do better than Lewis? Lewis had far more boxing ability,and was probably physically stronger.

I doubt Lewis was physically stronger; and Foreman beat many fighters who had allegedly more boxing ability (e.g., Ken Norton, Joe Frazier). Btw, Foreman wasn't that weak technically (noone is at that level). He wasn't easy to hit at all, and he had a phenomenal ability to close the ring off for his opponent.

Also,I think he was too strong mentally for Foreman.Of course,the fight would'nt have been a formality!!But I would certainly have backed Lewis.

Lewis had amazing flops as regards mental strenght; otherwise he wouldn't have lost to McCall and Rahman - fighters who were not in his league, really. It's true though that he tended to come in in top shape against fighters he respected (Ruddock, Golota, Holyfield).

------

In the end I don't disagree much with you though. I can also see Lewis beat Foreman, perhaps owing to his superior jab and reach, and his tendency to box agressively when he respected an opponent. But I can also see it going the other way round. Watch Foreman-Norton if you want to know what Foreman could do to a strong, technically sound, agile fighter with a superb jab.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Jul 2006, 12:56

actually bruno was beating the shit out of lennox the first 7 rounds, he won almost every round

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 27 Jul 2006, 13:39

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:actually bruno was beating the shit out of lennox the first 7 rounds, he won almost every round

Gone a little too far there.
Bruno was dominating(of sorts)over the first 3 rounds.
When he was stopped I would imagine the scorecard was close,maybe level.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Jul 2006, 12:07

yiddo14 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:actually bruno was beating the shit out of lennox the first 7 rounds, he won almost every round
Gone a little too far there.
Bruno was dominating(of sorts)over the first 3 rounds.
When he was stopped I would imagine the scorecard was close,maybe level.

bruno was ahead by 4 poiints on two officials cards

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 29 Jul 2006, 12:16

Mattyp151 wrote:Top 10, yes
Top 5, depends on who you ask.
Top 3, no f-in way.

Lennox gets downgraded because of his Klitschko performance and the fact he was boring to watch in a lot of his big fights.

How can you hold the Klitschko fight against him? He won with a clear TKO due to cuts caused by punches and was nearly 38 years old! Do you hold the Spinks, Holmes, or Berbick fights against Muhammad Ali, who was at a similar age? What about Joe Louis? Do you hold it against him that at an advanced age he was KO'd by Rocky Marciano?

The answer is usually a unanimous NO. The difference here is that Lewis did not LOSE the fight with Klitschko. He won it by cutting Vitali's face to shreds with his fists! So what he didn't fight a rematch. He won fair and square and obviously did not have the desire anymore, thus the tepid performance against Klitschko.

meade95 · Post by **meade95** » 29 Jul 2006, 13:17

An old, clearly post-prime Holyfield beat Lennox the second time they fought (Lennox won their first match)....but Holyfield won their second fight - Hell post fight polls show it was close to 80% of writers ringside felt Holyfield won (that Dec was a make-up for their first fight).

But nevermind the decision - The fact is an old, post prime Holyfield gave Lennox all he wanted (as Lennox ran, jabbed and held on) A prime Holyfield stops Lennox inside of 10 or wins a comfortable Dec.

Lennox belongs in the top 10-15 IMO - He had great size (used it very well) a good jab, and very good right hand (underrated uppercut as well)....but on his best night VS other guys in their primes on their best nights.....Lennox's loses to many in the Top 10.

jedijojo · Post by **jedijojo** » 29 Jul 2006, 19:24

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:actually bruno was beating the shit out of lennox the first 7 rounds, he won almost every round
Gone a little too far there.
Bruno was dominating(of sorts)over the first 3 rounds.
When he was stopped I would imagine the scorecard was close,maybe level.
bruno was ahead by 4 poiints on two officials cards

on one scorecard, not 2

It was 57-57, 57-57, 55-59 if I recall correctly.

I think I had Bruno ahead 58-56 but Lewis was starting to get some momentum (it's been aq long time I've seen it though)

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Jul 2006, 19:33

yea ur right. well the judge who had it 59-55 bruno was the only one who was watching the fight

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 30 Jul 2006, 01:52

Well said Yiddo14.

It's good so see Lennox getting some respect.

History will be kind to him, as it is to a lot of lesser fighters.