Muhammad Ali vs Duane Bobick 1977

[f read]

Does Ali still have enough left to defeat upstart Duane Bobick

[scorpio83]

Yes, Ali in 1977 would still have enough skills to beat Duane Bobick despite his skills declining as a fighter like Ali did with Evangelista and Earnie Shavers. Ali would out-box Bobick around the ring with jabs and did rope-a-dope tactic that would wear Bobick down to either decision him or stops him in the late rounds while Bobick would be gassed out from punching himself out.

[goose 5]

I agree with you.

[Woldemar]

Ali by wide UD

[Nile4000]

Ali by wide UD

X2

[HomicideHenry]

If my memory serves me right, Bobick was in the running to fight Ali but had to fight Norton first. Unfortunately Norton won, and Ali didn't want to face Ken for a fourth time, so he managed to fight Leon Spinks instead--- and when Spinks won the title he refused to defend against Ken Norton, so the WBC title was stripped off him and Norton became the only heavyweight champion in history to be awarded a belt without having to fight for it.

If Ali could lose to Spinks, who wasn't really all that good as a professional, I think Bobick is a live underdog against Ali--- but the problem with Duane was being such a slow starter, not having the best of chins, and his endurance had to be called into question because he only went ten rounds or more a total of six times in 52 fights and not against great competition.

This actually is a hard one to determine. It's far too easy to say that Ali would have won it, because I could see Bobick beating Spinks because after all Duane did beat Scott LeDoux more impressively than Spinks did.

I think it would be a fight that would have moments of drama, but ends up turning into a sloppy contest with a lot of clinches, most likely going the distance. I don't think it'd be a unanimous decision, it'd be a majority decision or split decision for Ali.

[Ambling Alp II]

Not exactly what happened. He didn't fight Spinks instead of Norton. The Spinks fight was just supposed to have been an easy payday.

Anyway, the Ali who fought Shavers in 1977 would have beaten Bobick easily. He still could fight in flashes at this stage and that is all he would need against Bobick. Probably would not have gone the distance.

He didn't look good at all against Evangelista (whom he didn't take seriously) earlier in the year. However, he probably would have taken Bobick more seriously and probably would have fought at the level that he did against Shavers.

[margaret thatcher]

moo beats bob easily

[HomicideHenry]

Anyway, the Ali who fought Shavers in 1977 would have beaten Bobick easily. He still could fight in flashes at this stage and that is all he would need against Bobick. Probably would not have gone the distance.

He didn't look good at all against Evangelista (whom he didn't take seriously) earlier in the year. However, he probably would have taken Bobick more seriously and probably would have fought at the level that he did against Shavers.

Ali absolutely looked like crap against Shavers. The state of New York basically banned Ali from ever fighting again in the state following the match. Yeah, he won, but it was one of the more sloppy and (at different times) boring matches that Ali had. The only moments of drama came from Shavers himself who was too green and too fixated on going the distance rather than ending things quickly.

That being said, Bobick was basically a wide open target who started slow. He could've been out pointed, but I'm not sure if it'd of been some easy win for Ali--- he was basically an echo of his former self, using psychological tactics, and relying mainly on his toughness at that stage.

Like Shavers said many years after the fact, that had he not been so naive he would have jumped all over Ali in the second round. Ali basically made him believe that he wasn't hurt, when the truth was he was ready to get knocked out. All he basically had was mind games and toughness.

And since Bobick was managed and trained by Joe Frazier, I reckon the first thing he would have been told was to completely ignore any psychological tactics that Ali would have used.

Of course this is all mere conjecture and can never be proven no matter what. But there's no way that Ali was going to stop Bobick, and he was too worn down to really mount any major offensive attacks to score a lot of points.

Bobick didn't quite carry the bomb that Shavers did, but he was 38-0-0 with 32 kayos. So I don't think Ali would just battle it out with Bobick, because he didn't do that with Shavers either. It was largely survival for Ali in that fight.

Mind you I said most likely Ali would win by majority or split decision. You constantly say Ali would win fights easily, and that just doesn't reflect the reality especially in this time frame.

[margaret thatcher]

muhammad ali in 2010 would probably still be fast enough to beat bobick

[Ambling Alp II]

Anyway, the Ali who fought Shavers in 1977 would have beaten Bobick easily. He still could fight in flashes at this stage and that is all he would need against Bobick. Probably would not have gone the distance.

He didn't look good at all against Evangelista (whom he didn't take seriously) earlier in the year. However, he probably would have taken Bobick more seriously and probably would have fought at the level that he did against Shavers.

Ali absolutely looked like crap against Shavers. The state of New York basically banned Ali from ever fighting again in the state following the match. Yeah, he won, but it was one of the more sloppy and (at different times) boring matches that Ali had. The only moments of drama came from Shavers himself who was too green and too fixated on going the distance rather than ending things quickly.

That being said, Bobick was basically a wide open target who started slow. He could've been out pointed, but I'm not sure if it'd of been some easy win for Ali--- he was basically an echo of his former self, using psychological tactics, and relying mainly on his toughness at that stage.

Like Shavers said many years after the fact, that had he not been so naive he would have jumped all over Ali in the second round. Ali basically made him believe that he wasn't hurt, when the truth was he was ready to get knocked out. All he basically had was mind games and toughness.

And since Bobick was managed and trained by Joe Frazier, I reckon the first thing he would have been told was to completely ignore any psychological tactics that Ali would have used.

Of course this is all mere conjecture and can never be proven no matter what. But there's no way that Ali was going to stop Bobick, and he was too worn down to really mount any major offensive attacks to score a lot of points.

Bobick didn't quite carry the bomb that Shavers did, but he was 38-0-0 with 32 kayos. So I don't think Ali would just battle it out with Bobick, because he didn't do that with Shavers either. It was largely survival for Ali in that fight.

Mind you I said most likely Ali would win by majority or split decision. You constantly say Ali would win fights easily, and that just doesn't reflect the reality especially in this time frame.

Not sure how you somehow came to the conclusion that Shavers was "green" at the time he fought Ali. He had been a pro for 8 years, had 60 fights, several against contenders.

No way that Ali was going to stop Bobick? It certainly was possible. As others have pointed out, Bobick was easy to hit and didn't have a good chin. Bobick also never went 15 rounds before.

Yes, I often say a prime Ali would win fights easily. Because he would have won against anyone in his prime, and easily almost all of the time.
I don't think Ali at this stage in 1977, he would have beaten a lot of guys easily, if at all; depending on who we are talking about.

I don't think Ali was a great fighter anymore. However, he still had more than enough to beat Bobick.

[HomicideHenry]

When I mean "green", the vast majority of people Earnie defeated were simply not world-class. Henry Clark and Jimmy Ellis were the only solid wins he had, and everybody else he beaten were tiersmen and journeymen.

The other world-class opponents he faced, Ron Lyle (LKO5) and Jerry Quarry (LKO1), he had his ass handed to him. I don't include Jimmy Young and Ron Stander, because he fought them when they were still novices.

Of his 60 professional fights at the time of facing Ali more than 95% of them were against guys like 0-18-2 Richard Pittman, or 19-30-2 Willie Johnson, or 24-25-2 Art Miller, etc--- but he hit so hard he was able to fight world class guys so he was able to skip multiple levels of competition, without having to learn anything.

From my perspective that's not enough to have been really mature enough to have dealt with the kind of pressure a championship fight brings, etc especially when the only thing Shavers ever had going for him was basically being one punch man--- He never really had to think, or learn to box really well, because he always had the eraser.

He was "green" because he didn't have a good ring IQ, and he was "green" because he never had to ever dig down and go any real distance before, and he was "green" because he was so limited. He was basically a shorter version of Deontay Wilder, except he fought more bums.

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The 3rd fight with Frazier was certainly his last great fight. It took a lot out of him. He was certainly not the fighter in 1977 that he had once been.

I don't think he trained much for Evangelista and just played around with him. He did have Shavers hurt and in spurts looked pretty good.

I just don't have a lot of faith in Bobick. Kallie Knoetzee wasn't much but he stopped Bobick in three rounds. Not saying Shavers had a great chin, but it was better than Bobick's. If Ali could hurt Shavers, he could hurt Bobick. And over 15 rounds, I certainly could see Bobick getting stopped.

[Ambling Alp II]

When I mean "green", the vast majority of people Earnie defeated were simply not world-class. Henry Clark and Jimmy Ellis were the only solid wins he had, and everybody else he beaten were tiersmen and journeymen.

The other world-class opponents he faced, Ron Lyle (LKO5) and Jerry Quarry (LKO1), he had his ass handed to him. I don't include Jimmy Young and Ron Stander, because he fought them when they were still novices.

Of his 60 professional fights at the time of facing Ali more than 95% of them were against guys like 0-18-2 Richard Pittman, or 19-30-2 Willie Johnson, or 24-25-2 Art Miller, etc--- but he hit so hard he was able to fight world class guys so he was able to skip multiple levels of competition, without having to learn anything.

From my perspective that's not enough to have been really mature enough to have dealt with the kind of pressure a championship fight brings, etc especially when the only thing Shavers ever had going for him was basically being one punch man--- He never really had to think, or learn to box really well, because he always had the eraser.

He was "green" because he didn't have a good ring IQ, and he was "green" because he never had to ever dig down and go any real distance before, and he was "green" because he was so limited. He was basically a shorter version of Deontay Wilder, except he fought more bums.

Of course a lot of the fighters that Shavers fought were not world class. He had 60 fights over 8 years. He fought tomato cans, journeyman, fringe contenders, real contenders; the whole gamut. He didn't "skip competition" at all.

He didn't exactly get his ass handed to him by Lyle. He decked Lyle once and at least made it to the 6th round. What do call Bobick's performance against Norton?

Not only did he beat Ellis and Clark, but he also beat Roy Williams.
As for digging down, watch Shaver's fight against Williams. Seldom will you see a fighter have to dig down like that and come back to win.

Do you really not see that these criticisms that you are making about Shavers are much more applicable to Bobick ?
Bobick's competition was a joke compared to Shavers. Bobick never beat anyone worth mentioning.

[oogiebe]

Ali takes Bobick apart and stops him late. Don't see it any other way, regardless of it being 1977.

Duane might have a few rounds of looking "ok" but that's it.

[DrDuke]

Ali at that time was obviously past prime. Yes, he struggled a lot against the likes of Shavers, Evangelista and Spinks, but they were cherry picked because of Ali's declined condition. It was a combo of Ali being declined physically and unmotivated. He was able to do better in the Spinks rematch than in the first fight, for instance. Bobick was undefeated by 1977 and seen as a comer, until his glass jaw was exposed. Ali would take Bobick more seriously than well-known sh!thouses like Evangelista. Of course, with Ali being declined, Bobick would be able to give a fight, but eventually Ali would KO Duane. He definitely had enough left to KO someone like Bobick.

[HomicideHenry]

I personally don't think he had the power or ability to knock out Bobick in 1977. His last stoppage wins were against Dunn and Coopman, who were not world-class opponents but European level heavyweights. If he stopped Bobick it would be by cuts.

Bobick's chin is a matter of debate really. The Norton fight, as devastating a loss as it was, was the result of a punch to the throat that Bobick did not recover from.

Following the loss he became something of a alcoholic, and he would lose by kayo to Tate and Knoetzee. Prior to Norton, there wasn't the slightest indication that he ever had a problem with his chin--- and he was involved in bang-up's with Scott LeDoux and Chuck Wepner, Bunny Johnson and Randy Neumann, so I tend to think that his losses by knockout after Norton was largely because of substance abuse.

As for Bobick's opponents allegedly being worse than Shavers's opponents, I don't think so. If you go from Scott LeDoux in 1977 all the way back to Roy Wallace in 1975 (20 opponents) for Bobick it comes out to 332-126-17. If you do the same for Shavers, from Larry Holmes (1978) to AJ Staples (1972) it comes out to 332-166-24, and the bulk of the win ratio was guys he lost to. If anything at all you would make an argument that they had a very similar record or resume.

[Ambling Alp II]

Bobick himself was not a world class opponent.

No, Bobick's chin is not a question of debate. He never fought anyone with power until he fought Norton. He got stopped in the first round. Then got stopped Knoetzee (not a world class opponent) in just three rounds. Then got stopped by Tate in the first round. Then got stopped by George Chaplin (not a big puncher) in 6 rounds.

You win/loss thing is hilarious. I would hope by know that you know that win/loss records in boxing can be very deceiving. You can always find an opponent with a pretty record who can't fight.
Bobick himself is a perfect example.

You are also not taking into account the stages of the fighter's careers.

Bobick never beat a world class opponent in his career. He only fight two. Both times he got stopped in the first round.
Trying to spin the facts and make Bobick out to be much better than he was is absurd.
Trying to to compare him to Earnie Shavers is absurd.