Time for everyone to realise why Lennox was one of the best

[yiddo14]

The guy was never outboxed.
Please don't point to the Mercer fight.Lewis landed over a hundred punches more than Ray,and was definately worth his win.
The only time he was visibly losing a fight was against Klitschko,and even this was debatable.It did'nt matter because he stopped him anyway.

Lewis is criticized for his 'weak' chin.
Yet he was officially knocked down only twice in his career,to huge one off punches.Whilst he was stopped soundly by Rahman,the McCall ko was different.He was up at 6,and the stoppage was premature.
Compare this to guy's that are highly ranked all time by most-
Joe Louis(considered THE very best Heavy by many,including me)He was down ten times and stopped twice.
Patterson down twenty time and stopped five times.
Even the extremely tough Joe Frazier was down eleven times and stopped three times.
The shots that stopped Lewis would have stopped 90% of heavyweights.
He took punches from Tyson,Tua,Mercer,Klitschko,Briggs,Ruddock,Morrison and Tucker.All very big punchers,yet he took their shots.

He was continuosly dodged by Bowe,who did'nt want no part of Lewis(maybe he remembered the olympic final?)
He was also dodged by Tyson when he was released from prison.

Lennox beat every man he ever fought.

The guy is easily top 5 all time.Maybe even higher.
He is'nt given the plaudits he deserves because he was his own man,who did things his own way.He was'nt Ameriacn,and refused to base himself solely in America,which never went down well with the US press.Indeed,I remember when Lewis battered Tyson,did'nt the commentator insist that Wladimir Klitschko was the best in the division at that point!!Despite Lewis dominating for years!!! Show's you what he was up against.

Time for all the haters to finally admit he was a true Heavyweight legend.

[pundit]

The guy was never outboxed.
Please don't point to the Mercer fight.Lewis landed over a hundred punches more than Ray,and was definately worth his win.
The only time he was visibly losing a fight was against Klitschko,and even this was debatable.It did'nt matter because he stopped him anyway.

Lewis is criticized for his 'weak' chin.
Yet he was officially knocked down only twice in his career,to huge one off punches.Whilst he was stopped soundly by Rahman,the McCall ko was different.He was up at 6,and the stoppage was premature.
Compare this to guy's that are highly ranked all time by most-
Joe Louis(considered THE very best Heavy by many,including me)He was down ten times and stopped twice.
Patterson down twenty time and stopped five times.
Even the extremely tough Joe Frazier was down eleven times and stopped three times.
The shots that stopped Lewis would have stopped 90% of heavyweights.
He took punches from Tyson,Tua,Mercer,Klitschko,Briggs,Ruddock,Morrison and Tucker.All very big punchers,yet he took their shots.

He was continuosly dodged by Bowe,who did'nt want no part of Lewis(maybe he remembered the olympic final?)
He was also dodged by Tyson when he was released from prison.

Lennox beat every man he ever fought.

The guy is easily top 5 all time.Maybe even higher.
He is'nt given the plaudits he deserves because he was his own man,who did things his own way.He was'nt Ameriacn,and refused to base himself solely in America,which never went down well with the US press.Indeed,I remember when Lewis battered Tyson,did'nt the commentator insist that Wladimir Klitschko was the best in the division at that point!!Despite Lewis dominating for years!!! Show's you what he was up against.

Time for all the haters to finally admit he was a true Heavyweight legend.

I have no quibbles with recoginizing LL as one of the best all-time, but "easily top 5 maybe even higher" is a rather strong statement. I have him #7, behind Louis, Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Johnson, and Langford. Others would rate Dempsey or Marciano above LL (I don't because I don't rate their competiton that highly). Again others fancy Sonny Liston or Joe Frazier, or even Evander Holyfield (who was beaten by Lewis, but only when he declining) or Mike Tyson (who was considered THE big thing of the late 1980s/early 1990s). Moreoever, of course people like Frazier and Louis were down more often than Lewis, but Frazier fought prime Foreman and prime Ali - competition that simply wasn't around in Lewis' age - and Louis stayed on until long beyond his peak

In short: you'd need to come with a bit more to make your "easy top 5" rating plausible.

[Ezzard]

Lewis gets downgraded because a lot of his fights weren't the dramatic spectacles that Tyson's were. The final win against Klitschko was fair enough. Cut soppages are always a little disappointing and leave me wondering about a rematch but they are completely legitimate.

Most people who underrate lewis just point to the KO losses and claim anyone with a right hand could have KO'd him, without relaising that a lot of people tried and failed. Lewis didn't have the recuperative powers of Ali or Holmes but it always took a great shot to put him down. His career didn't hit the skids when he lost those fights either. he ahd the mnetal stregth to pull himself back together and continue to flourish.

[pundit]

Lewis gets downgraded because a lot of his fights weren't the dramatic spectacles that Tyson's were. The final win against Klitschko was fair enough. Cut soppages are always a little disappointing and leave me wondering about a rematch but they are completely legitimate.

The final bout was a really good fight for Klitschko, who showed the public that he was for real. But in my view it didn't to anything to Lewis' legacy, neither positively nor negatively. An old LL scraped by, using ringsmarts and experience, and then called it quits when it was the right time.

[granberry]

Time for everyone to realise Lennox was one of the best glass chins of all time.

[The Great John L]

Moreoever, of course people like Frazier and Louis were down more often than Lewis, but Frazier fought prime Foreman and prime Ali - competition that simply wasn't around in Lewis' age - and Louis stayed on until long beyond his peak

Frazier was dropped by 2 fighters, and the Bonavena fight was his 12th fight! Besides those 2 KDs very early in his career, he was dropped a bunch of times by George Foreman. Yes, you are correct that Frazier was down more TIMES than Lewis, but he was also only dropped by 2 fighters, and the 2 fighters that dropped him were, I think, a tad bit better than McCall and Rahman.

[yiddo14]

Time for everyone to realise Lennox was one of the best glass chins of all time.

Amazing really that Tyson,Tua,Briggs,Tucker,Bruno,Ruddock,Mercer,Morrison and Klitschko failed to break this 'glass' jaw then was'nt it?

[Crease]

First off, I'm not a big fan of Lennox Lewis... (I believe he's way too overhyped by the British media).

BUT I definitely will not say that Lewis isn't one fo the greatest 20 of all-time.

Yeah, there are people here who would say that Lewis is a top 10 and even some fanatics willa rgue his case for a top 5 placement, but every boxer has a fan-base who overhype him.

(eg. in the last 2 months, I've heard BOXREC members say that these fighters were all top 5s... Sam Langford, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Jim Jeffries and Gene Tunney)

I wouldn't put "The Lion" in my top 10 because I personnally believe that I can name 10 boxers who would defeat him... And here they are...

(Ali, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Foreman, Frazier, Johnson, Liston, Walcott, Charles)

I will these 2 things about Lewis' career...

1. If you place Lewis in the top 10, then you'll hafta put Holyfield pretty close up there as well, because Holyfield pretty musch equalled Lewis in both the fights they had. (Lewis is only seen as "the better fighter" because he unified the titles)...

2. Lewis was a champion of "boxing politics"...whenever Byrd and Ruiz were coming up as dangerous contenders and were hungry for titles and success, Lewis could avoid them by relinquishing one of his 4 titles...

I'm not saying that either of these fighters would've defeated Lewis in their primes but they would have (at least) give him a close run for his money, (I mean let's face it, he lost to Rahman for christs' sake).

PLUS, becuase of his influence over the 4 governing boxing bodies, Lewis could choose and pick out his opponent(s) for his next defence, and if the bodies disagreed, he would still have other titles to hold onto.

PLUS, in my opinion (Up unto the stoppage) I believe that Klitchsko was the better fighter, (although it is a matter of opinion) BUT I think that Vitali had the measure of the champion.

SO, if Lewis was fighting in the 40s or 50s, he would have to defend against Bryd, Ruiz and Brewster, and there would be no questions asked, unlike today's heavyweight boxing scene...

[yiddo14]

First off, I'm not a big fan of Lennox Lewis... (I believe he's way too overhyped by the British media).

BUT I definitely will not say that Lewis isn't one fo the greatest 20 of all-time.

Yeah, there are people here who would say that Lewis is a top 10 and even some fanatics willa rgue his case for a top 5 placement, but every boxer has a fan-base who overhype him.

(eg. in the last 2 months, I've heard BOXREC members say that these fighters were all top 5s... Sam Langford, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Jim Jeffries and Gene Tunney)

I wouldn't put "The Lion" in my top 10 because I personnally believe that I can name 10 boxers who would defeat him... And here they are...

(Ali, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Foreman, Frazier, Johnson, Liston, Walcott, Charles)

I will these 2 things about Lewis' career...

1. If you place Lewis in the top 10, then you'll hafta put Holyfield pretty close up there as well, because Holyfield pretty musch equalled Lewis in both the fights they had. (Lewis is only seen as "the better fighter" because he unified the titles)...

2. Lewis was a champion of "boxing politics"...whenever Byrd and Ruiz were coming up as dangerous contenders and were hungry for titles and success, Lewis could avoid them by relinquishing one of his 4 titles...

I'm not saying that either of these fighters would've defeated Lewis in their primes but they would have (at least) give him a close run for his money, (I mean let's face it, he lost to Rahman for christs' sake).

PLUS, becuase of his influence over the 4 governing boxing bodies, Lewis could choose and pick out his opponent(s) for his next defence, and if the bodies disagreed, he would still have other titles to hold onto.

PLUS, in my opinion (Up unto the stoppage) I believe that Klitchsko was the better fighter, (although it is a matter of opinion) BUT I think that Vitali had the measure of the champion.

SO, if Lewis was fighting in the 40s or 50s, he would have to defend against Bryd, Ruiz and Brewster, and there would be no questions asked, unlike today's heavyweight boxing scene...

So Holyfield pretty much equalled Lewis in both their fights? Have you EVER seen these fights? Even the US media(which did'nt give Lewis ANY respect)called the first fight result an absolute disgrace.Roy Jones came out and said he was ashamed to be American after the way Lewis was robbed.
Lewis won both fights.The 2nd fight he took lightly becasue the first fight was so easy,yet he still beat Holy.

When have Byrd or Ruiz EVER been deemed dangerous contenders!?!You say Ruiz and Byrd would have given him a close fight(at least!)Well,I would have been very suprised if either of them lasted past the 5th round.He would have destroyed both.
The only reason Lewis did'nt fight these 2,is at that period in his career he wanted the big names.They bring the big money.

The 10 names you mention are all legends of the ring,and I love them all,but take out Ali,Holmes and Louis(and they would have been very close fights against a prime,fit Lewis)I just don't share your opinion.

As for Lewis being a champion of boxing politics......the guy was frozen out of the picture for quite some time after the McCall loss.Don King got all the titles(ready for Tyson's release)and Lennox' team spent plenty of time in the court room trying to secure their rightful shot at a title.
Don't forget Bowe and Tyson BOTH dodged him.So he was hardly a champion of boxing politics.

[granberry]

Time for everyone to realise Lennox was one of the best glass chins of all time.

Amazing really that Tyson,Tua,Briggs,Tucker,Bruno,Ruddock,Mercer,Morrison and Klitschko failed to break this 'glass' jaw then was'nt it?

You forgot to mention that

all-time great drug addict Oliver McCall hit Lennox on his glass chin and Lennox went down in a heap.

You forgot to mention that the great Hasim Rahman knocked Lewis out.

Your SELECTIVENESS is pathetic.

[yiddo14]

Time for everyone to realise Lennox was one of the best glass chins of all time.

Amazing really that Tyson,Tua,Briggs,Tucker,Bruno,Ruddock,Mercer,Morrison and Klitschko failed to break this 'glass' jaw then was'nt it?

You forgot to mention that

all-time great drug addict Oliver McCall hit Lennox on his glass chin and Lennox went down in a heap.

You forgot to mention that the great Hasim Rahman knocked Lewis out.

Your SELECTIVENESS is pathetic.

McCall did indeed hit him flush with a peach of a punch.Lennox got up at the count of SIX,yet he was deemed unable to continue(despite being champion)

Indeed,he did get ko'd by Rahman.

The way you word it is funny.It's as if Rahman and McCall merely tapped him on the chin,and he crumbled!!!
I doubt very much if either fighter threw a better punch in their whole career.

Surely if his chin was so fragile,and he fell to these punches from such 'losers' as McCall and Rahman,then proven heavy punchers like the one's I mentioned would have had no trouble knocking him out??

My selectiveness is pathetiec eh? Did I somewhere deny he was stopped by these 2 fighters? Go back to my first post,I clearly don't FORGET he was stopped by these two.

Your ignorance is pathetic.

[Controversial]

Time for everyone to realise Lennox was one of the best glass chins of all time.

Amazing really that Tyson,Tua,Briggs,Tucker,Bruno,Ruddock,Mercer,Morrison and Klitschko failed to break this 'glass' jaw then was'nt it?

You forgot to mention that

all-time great drug addict Oliver McCall hit Lennox on his glass chin and Lennox went down in a heap.

You forgot to mention that the great Hasim Rahman knocked Lewis out.

Your SELECTIVENESS is pathetic.

What your forgetting is that McCall and Rahman were both BIG heavyweights, both were BIG punchers and both were no doubt in the best conditions of their lives, as they were both having world title fights.

It can also be argued that Lewis didn't train properly for Rahman and underestimated him.

You also forget to mention that Lewis beat both easily in the rematches.

Lewis had a great chin. You don't fight huge punchers like Tyson, Klitschko, Bruno, Briggs, Mercer, Mason, Tua etc... without slipping up more often.

What you need to remember is it doesn't matter how good a fighter is, if they are a big puncher their punches will hurt as much as anyone elses. Earnie Shavers wasn't a particulaly great fighter but a clean shot from him would have ANY fighter in trouble, no matter how great they may be.

Any fighter taking a hard punch from a 16+ stone big punching heavyweight will be hurt......no matter who they are.

Lewis in my opinion is an all-time great fighter. He beat every fighter he fought and ducked no-one. His two slip-ups against McCall and Rahman do tarnish his reputation slightly however how many other 'great' heavyweights had KO losses, dodgy decisions go in their favour or knockdowns against poor opposition.

Lewis's only problem in my opinion was he was sometimes too negative.

[Axe]

The McCall KO was not premature, Lewis was still dancing for the ref immediately before the stoppage.

[Collins2000]

Amazing really that Tyson,Tua,Briggs,Tucker,Bruno,Ruddock,Mercer,Morrison and Klitschko failed to break this 'glass' jaw then was'nt it?

You forgot to mention that

all-time great drug addict Oliver McCall hit Lennox on his glass chin and Lennox went down in a heap.

You forgot to mention that the great Hasim Rahman knocked Lewis out.

Your SELECTIVENESS is pathetic.

What your forgetting is that McCall and Rahman were both BIG heavyweights, both were BIG punchers and both were no doubt in the best conditions of their lives, as they were both having world title fights.

It can also be argued that Lewis didn't train properly for Rahman and underestimated him.

You also forget to mention that Lewis beat both easily in the rematches.

Lewis had a great chin. You don't fight huge punchers like Tyson, Klitschko, Bruno, Briggs, Mercer, Mason, Tua etc... without slipping up more often.

What you need to remember is it doesn't matter how good a fighter is, if they are a big puncher their punches will hurt as much as anyone elses. Earnie Shavers wasn't a particulaly great fighter but a clean shot from him would have ANY fighter in trouble, no matter how great they may be.

Any fighter taking a hard punch from a 16+ stone big punching heavyweight will be hurt......no matter who they are.

Lewis in my opinion is an all-time great fighter. He beat every fighter he fought and ducked no-one. His two slip-ups against McCall and Rahman do tarnish his reputation slightly however how many other 'great' heavyweights had KO losses, dodgy decisions go in their favour or knockdowns against poor opposition.

Lewis's only problem in my opinion was he was sometimes too negative.

Lewis had a great chin? And George Bush has a great understanding of the Middle East. Or should that be Middle Earth as this is obviously the latest chapter of a fantasy novel.

[Collins2000]

The McCall KO was not premature, Lewis was still dancing for the ref immediately before the stoppage.

He was actually dancing with the ref. Lummox stumbled into him mumbling "Can I have another balloon, grandpop?".

[dr_devious]

[quote="Crease"] I wouldn't put "The Lion" in my top 10 because I personnally believe that I can name 10 boxers who would defeat him... And here they are...

(Ali, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Foreman, Frazier, Johnson, Liston, Walcott, Charles)

2. Lewis was a champion of "boxing politics"...whenever Byrd and Ruiz were coming up as dangerous contenders and were hungry for titles and success, Lewis could avoid them by relinquishing one of his 4 titles...

Is this some sort of joke post? How would Marciano, Walcott and Charles have beaten Lewis? He would have destroyed all 3 of them, and more than likely beaten Dempsey easily too. Those guys are too small to get anywhere near him.
As for Lewis ducking Byrd and Ruiz, I bet he was really bricking himself about these 2. He could beat them one after the other. He didnt fight them because they wouldnt generate enough money; he was at the latter stages of his career then.
As for his 2 losses, the McCall fight was possibly a premature stoppage and the Rahman loss was due to poor training for a fight at altitude; basically he was knackered after a few rounds. Look what he did to both of them in rematches.
Lewis was easily the best heavyweight of his generation; and top 5 of all time

[Flump]

Lewis is definately top 10 material, the only thing that possibly holds him back from the top 5 is that you couldn't see a prime Ali, Louis or Holmes getting knocked out by McCall or Rahman.

Lewis defeated every fighter he fought, was the best of his generation and ducked nobody. Criticising Lewis for not fighting Byrd or the laughable Ruiz is like criticising Ali for not fighting Randy Neumann or Jack Bodell.

Look at the division now and tell me Lewis isn't missed, he was a great fighter no question and his knockout of Rahman in the rematch was one of the best one punch KO's in the HW history.

[Thunder and Lightning]

I agree that Lewis should definetly be in the top 10 (top 5 maybe a little to high) he dominated the heavyweight scen for many years and he had skills and a big punch and a pretty impresive resume as well
Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Razor Ruddock who Tyson had problems with got ko'd in round 2 and he did beat both McCall and Rahman in rematches.

The losses to Rahman and McCall are BIG downers in his carrer however Mike Tyson got ko'd by Buster Douglas, Muhammed Ali lost to Leon Spinks sure past his prime but good enough to beat spinks and Jack Dempsey got ko'd in 1 by Jim Flynn.
I mean these things happen if a fighter is not allowed to lose than the two greatest fighters of all time as it looks right now is Rocky Marciano and Nikolai Valuev, I cry just thinking about it.

[Collins2000]

Lewis is definately top 10 material, the only thing that possibly holds him back from the top 5 is that you couldn't see a prime Ali, Louis or Holmes getting knocked out by McCall or Rahman.

Lewis defeated every fighter he fought, was the best of his generation and ducked nobody. Criticising Lewis for not fighting Byrd or the laughable Ruiz is like criticising Ali for not fighting Randy Neumann or Jack Bodell.

Look at the division now and tell me Lewis isn't missed, he was a great fighter no question and his knockout of Rahman in the rematch was one of the best one punch KO's in the HW history.

Oh, I don't know about that. The KO that the mediocre Rahman put on Lewis was pretty spectacular too...

"Lewis defeated every fighter he fought, was the best of his generation and ducked nobody." - Probably true but the very best fighters he beat were well past their best and most of the others were a pretty mediocre bunch. Apart from Holyfield and Tyson (both past their best and, in the case of Tyson, shockingly so, which of Lennox's opponents would you say are future hall of famers?

[Flump]

Lewis is definately top 10 material, the only thing that possibly holds him back from the top 5 is that you couldn't see a prime Ali, Louis or Holmes getting knocked out by McCall or Rahman.

Lewis defeated every fighter he fought, was the best of his generation and ducked nobody. Criticising Lewis for not fighting Byrd or the laughable Ruiz is like criticising Ali for not fighting Randy Neumann or Jack Bodell.

Look at the division now and tell me Lewis isn't missed, he was a great fighter no question and his knockout of Rahman in the rematch was one of the best one punch KO's in the HW history.

Oh, I don't know about that. The KO that the mediocre Rahman put on Lewis was pretty spectacular too...

"Lewis defeated every fighter he fought, was the best of his generation and ducked nobody." - Probably true but the very best fighters he beat were well past their best and most of the others were a pretty mediocre bunch. Apart from Holyfield and Tyson (both past their best and, in the case of Tyson, shockingly so, which of Lennox's opponents would you say are future hall of famers?

Rahman's kayo of Lewis was equally spectacular but I'm talking up Lewis, not The Rock.

HOF candidates? Can't think of any outside Tyson and Holyfield, but you can only beat what's around at the time, and he did.

[Collins2000]

Lewis is definately top 10 material, the only thing that possibly holds him back from the top 5 is that you couldn't see a prime Ali, Louis or Holmes getting knocked out by McCall or Rahman.

Lewis defeated every fighter he fought, was the best of his generation and ducked nobody. Criticising Lewis for not fighting Byrd or the laughable Ruiz is like criticising Ali for not fighting Randy Neumann or Jack Bodell.

Look at the division now and tell me Lewis isn't missed, he was a great fighter no question and his knockout of Rahman in the rematch was one of the best one punch KO's in the HW history.

Oh, I don't know about that. The KO that the mediocre Rahman put on Lewis was pretty spectacular too...

"Lewis defeated every fighter he fought, was the best of his generation and ducked nobody." - Probably true but the very best fighters he beat were well past their best and most of the others were a pretty mediocre bunch. Apart from Holyfield and Tyson (both past their best and, in the case of Tyson, shockingly so, which of Lennox's opponents would you say are future hall of famers?

Rahman's kayo of Lewis was equally spectacular but I'm talking up Lewis, not The Rock.

HOF candidates? Can't think of any outside Tyson and Holyfield, but you can only beat what's around at the time, and he did.

That's true but my point is that beating a mob of mediocrities, even if they
were the best around at the time, doesn't equate with with what the true
all time greats have done. Throw into the mix the fact that 2 of these
average blokes were able to KO Lewis and, to me, you aren't talking about a top 10 of all time heavyweight. Who else in the potential top
10 didn't beat a single future hall of famer who was also in his prime AND
got KO'd by TWO very ordinary contenders?

[yiddo14]

Lewis would have beat Tyson and Holyfield at ANY point in their career.

Also,I remember that Holyfield before the Lewis fight was regarded as this monster slaying giant,who was somehow getting better.Yet after Lewis schooled him,he was instantly over the hill,way past it.

Joe Louis constantly beat all time greats did'nt he?
All of the greats Marciano beat were young,prime and in their peak were'nt they? I mean Louis 38,Walcott 39 and of course a prime 39 yr old Archie Moore.
Let's not forget the prime Ali Larry Holmes dealt with,and of course the top level,grade a legends he faced constantly.

Lewis' standard of opposition was'nt any worse than these guys.
You can't blame Lewis for the apparent lack of competition.His main career defining fight would have been Bowe probably,but unfortunately Bowe was scared of Lewis and did'nt fancy a repeat of the olympic final beating.

[dr_devious]

Apart from the Ali, Frazier, Foreman era, when was the heavyweight division stronger than the 90s?

[yiddo14]

Apart from the Ali, Frazier, Foreman era, when was the heavyweight division stronger than the 90s?

Exactly.The answer is probably never.
In fact the only difference between Ali,Frazier,Foreman,Norton era and the 90s is they all faced each other,in their primes and produced classic fights.
Could you imagine the sort of classic fights we were robbed of by Lewis,Bowe,Holyfield and Tyson not all getting it on in their primes?
I feel cheated!!!!!!

[Ezzard]

Apart from the Ali, Frazier, Foreman era, when was the heavyweight division stronger than the 90s?

Exactly.The answer is probably never.
In fact the only difference between Ali,Frazier,Foreman,Norton era and the 90s is they all faced each other,in their primes and produced classic fights.
Could you imagine the sort of classic fights we were robbed of by Lewis,Bowe,Holyfield and Tyson not all getting it on in their primes?
I feel cheated!!!!!!

Totally agree that the fights were there to be made. We got some of them, although some were with faded versions but still...