Brain damage (CTE) in past eras

[Wee Tommy]

In the bare knuckle era this kind of injury was extremely rare because most of the damage that occurred was superficial, and you simply couldn't throw punches as much as you wanted because your hands started to hurt almost immediately.

The creation of the rules that govern boxing for the past hundred and twenty years, may make for more exciting fights and look like a more cleaner and professional business--- but has only increased brain trauma.

The bigger the gloves, the shorter the rounds, the shorter the contests, only forced the athletes to fight not only harder than they normally would have but at a higher pace than they normally would have.

When gloves were skintight or three ounces at best, boxers relied heavily on body punching more than anything else--- opening up on your opponent going head hunting was quite the gamble because you would more likely break your hands.

Which is why a lot of the fight films from the early 20th century was slow paced, and a lot of clinching. These were tactical men, of course, but they also had a great deal of common sense.

Once the gloves became six ounces, then eight ounces, and ten ounces--- well you can hit a guy all day long and rarely break your hands or hurt your hands. Especially with gloves becoming fitted with foam rather than horsehair.

If you ever saw a death or serious injury in the bare knuckle days it was mostly due to pre-existing conditions fighters had, or it was due to the allowance of wrestling maneuvers where people sometimes were suplexed on their head, etc--- whereas in the passed 120 years the deaths and serious injuries have only piled up.

Headgear, too, has been a detriment to boxing on the amateur level especially because people had the mindset that it cushioned blows so they threw all caution to the wind allowing themselves to be hit instead of employing defense at all times.

But what people will do, overreacting, is to make fights shorter and the gloves bigger which in my view is not going to change anything. If anything it will make things more worse than it already is because it will force people to fight faster and harder to make more of an impact.

The real difference from the bare knuckle era was that nobody gave a shit about the fighters after they stopped and men regularly died in their 30s and 40s without any fanfare. It’s ludicrous to suggest that the sport was somehow safer back then. Utterly.

[Controversial]

Anyone read Tris Dixon's book? Damaged. I have read only 3 chapters so can't comment yet but so far it's been very interesting

Yes it's very interesting and concerning at the same time, I didn't realise just how many fighters ended up in asylums or needing long term care, often at a fairly young age.

[JMac]

a sh!it load of brain rattlings in sparring too

I believe I read somewhere that experts are all but certain that this is where the majority of damage comes from. It makes sense, fighters will spar most days of the week and a handful of times in a year. Did the guys who used to fight nearly every week still bother sparring? I would predict maybe not due to the danger of a cut or something like that ruling them out for the next week. It could help explain why some guys who had 100s of fights appeared OK damage wise compared to others who didn't.

I also have a theory, that is admittedly not based on any evidence other than my own thoughts that the trauma done earlier in life ie guys that start fighting from 10-14 or earlier (Benitez being a great example) has a worse impact than if that same damage was done to a fighter that was fully grown. I'm not sure if it's true or not but it is just a theory I have.

I've been involved with boxing for over 40 years from amateur boxer to referee/judge to coach . I've seen too many boxers who started at young ages like Meldrick Taylor and many others who had extensive amateur careers to long pro careers who now slur their speech and some are in a bad way. I used to see Meldrick when he was like 12 in the gym and later refed some of his amateur fights and even was substitute teacher in his high school. I was in Vegas when he made the Olympic team and we went out to celebrate. It's sad to see him now. He preaches on street corners and was arrested a year or two ago for getting into a physical confrontation on the streets, maybe with his landlord or something. I've seen it with other guys I knew who were top ranked amateurs and later good pros. My son asked me if he could box when he was 10. I told him not at that age and to wait until he's older. He is now 21 and boxing for a university team and doing well. He won't fight pro.

[Controversial]

a sh!it load of brain rattlings in sparring too

I believe I read somewhere that experts are all but certain that this is where the majority of damage comes from. It makes sense, fighters will spar most days of the week and a handful of times in a year. Did the guys who used to fight nearly every week still bother sparring? I would predict maybe not due to the danger of a cut or something like that ruling them out for the next week. It could help explain why some guys who had 100s of fights appeared OK damage wise compared to others who didn't.

I also have a theory, that is admittedly not based on any evidence other than my own thoughts that the trauma done earlier in life ie guys that start fighting from 10-14 or earlier (Benitez being a great example) has a worse impact than if that same damage was done to a fighter that was fully grown. I'm not sure if it's true or not but it is just a theory I have.

I've been involved with boxing for over 40 years from amateur boxer to referee/judge to coach . I've seen too many boxers who started at young ages like Meldrick Taylor and many others who had extensive amateur careers to long pro careers who now slur their speech and some are in a bad way. I used to see Meldrick when he was like 12 in the gym and later refed some of his amateur fights and even was substitute teacher in his high school. I was in Vegas when he made the Olympic team and we went out to celebrate. It's sad to see him now. He preaches on street corners and was arrested a year or two ago for getting into a physical confrontation on the streets, maybe with his landlord or something. I've seen it with other guys I knew who were top ranked amateurs and later good pros. My son asked me if he could box when he was 10. I told him not at that age and to wait until he's older. He is now 21 and boxing for a university team and doing well. He won't fight pro.

Blimey I didn't realise Meldrick Taylor was in a bad way too, thats sad to hear. Would you be concerned if your son decided to turn pro?

[p4p1]

a sh!it load of brain rattlings in sparring too

I believe I read somewhere that experts are all but certain that this is where the majority of damage comes from. It makes sense, fighters will spar most days of the week and a handful of times in a year. Did the guys who used to fight nearly every week still bother sparring? I would predict maybe not due to the danger of a cut or something like that ruling them out for the next week. It could help explain why some guys who had 100s of fights appeared OK damage wise compared to others who didn't.

I also have a theory, that is admittedly not based on any evidence other than my own thoughts that the trauma done earlier in life ie guys that start fighting from 10-14 or earlier (Benitez being a great example) has a worse impact than if that same damage was done to a fighter that was fully grown. I'm not sure if it's true or not but it is just a theory I have.

I've been involved with boxing for over 40 years from amateur boxer to referee/judge to coach . I've seen too many boxers who started at young ages like Meldrick Taylor and many others who had extensive amateur careers to long pro careers who now slur their speech and some are in a bad way. I used to see Meldrick when he was like 12 in the gym and later refed some of his amateur fights and even was substitute teacher in his high school. I was in Vegas when he made the Olympic team and we went out to celebrate. It's sad to see him now. He preaches on street corners and was arrested a year or two ago for getting into a physical confrontation on the streets, maybe with his landlord or something. I've seen it with other guys I knew who were top ranked amateurs and later good pros. My son asked me if he could box when he was 10. I told him not at that age and to wait until he's older. He is now 21 and boxing for a university team and doing well. He won't fight pro.

Sad to hear the Meldrick isn't doing great but unfortunately not at all surprising.
It's hard to just how much I respect you telling your son no to boxing. I know people who are involved in boxing and allow their sons to start boxing around the same age. Personally I can't fathom it. They see the damage, we just had a guy in my area who recently died. I'm very confident that it was brain injury related, last time I saw him he was fucked. Yet these guys still get their sons down to the gyms.
If I have a child who wants to learnt to box, I would admittedly teach him, but I sure as hell wouldn't get him down to a gym to spar etc. I think I will try and get my kids involved in wrestling instead of boxing. I believe that it has most of the same positive effects + life lessons without the certainty of brain damage.

[margaret thatcher]

true, they just gotta watchout for their ears if they wrestle

[Controversial]

I happened to see a clip on YouTube of Yusaf Mack talking about his retirement from boxing, he was really slurring and he said he is suffering from the effects of brain damage. It's so common but it just gets brushed under the carpet.

[JMac]

I believe I read somewhere that experts are all but certain that this is where the majority of damage comes from. It makes sense, fighters will spar most days of the week and a handful of times in a year. Did the guys who used to fight nearly every week still bother sparring? I would predict maybe not due to the danger of a cut or something like that ruling them out for the next week. It could help explain why some guys who had 100s of fights appeared OK damage wise compared to others who didn't.

I also have a theory, that is admittedly not based on any evidence other than my own thoughts that the trauma done earlier in life ie guys that start fighting from 10-14 or earlier (Benitez being a great example) has a worse impact than if that same damage was done to a fighter that was fully grown. I'm not sure if it's true or not but it is just a theory I have.

I've been involved with boxing for over 40 years from amateur boxer to referee/judge to coach . I've seen too many boxers who started at young ages like Meldrick Taylor and many others who had extensive amateur careers to long pro careers who now slur their speech and some are in a bad way. I used to see Meldrick when he was like 12 in the gym and later refed some of his amateur fights and even was substitute teacher in his high school. I was in Vegas when he made the Olympic team and we went out to celebrate. It's sad to see him now. He preaches on street corners and was arrested a year or two ago for getting into a physical confrontation on the streets, maybe with his landlord or something. I've seen it with other guys I knew who were top ranked amateurs and later good pros. My son asked me if he could box when he was 10. I told him not at that age and to wait until he's older. He is now 21 and boxing for a university team and doing well. He won't fight pro.

Blimey I didn't realise Meldrick Taylor was in a bad way too, thats sad to hear. Would you be concerned if your son decided to turn pro?

If he wanted to fight pro I would try to talk him into having no more than 10 fights for the experience and say that he did it. I know enough local promoters who could match him with easy fights because he could put butts in the seats which is what the promoter wants. It’s not worth fighting long term unless you have the skills to win a title. I rather see him use his university degree.

[margaret thatcher]

i didnt know college boxing still existed tbh

[HomicideHenry]

In the bare knuckle era this kind of injury was extremely rare because most of the damage that occurred was superficial, and you simply couldn't throw punches as much as you wanted because your hands started to hurt almost immediately.

The creation of the rules that govern boxing for the past hundred and twenty years, may make for more exciting fights and look like a more cleaner and professional business--- but has only increased brain trauma.

The bigger the gloves, the shorter the rounds, the shorter the contests, only forced the athletes to fight not only harder than they normally would have but at a higher pace than they normally would have.

When gloves were skintight or three ounces at best, boxers relied heavily on body punching more than anything else--- opening up on your opponent going head hunting was quite the gamble because you would more likely break your hands.

Which is why a lot of the fight films from the early 20th century was slow paced, and a lot of clinching. These were tactical men, of course, but they also had a great deal of common sense.

Once the gloves became six ounces, then eight ounces, and ten ounces--- well you can hit a guy all day long and rarely break your hands or hurt your hands. Especially with gloves becoming fitted with foam rather than horsehair.

If you ever saw a death or serious injury in the bare knuckle days it was mostly due to pre-existing conditions fighters had, or it was due to the allowance of wrestling maneuvers where people sometimes were suplexed on their head, etc--- whereas in the passed 120 years the deaths and serious injuries have only piled up.

Headgear, too, has been a detriment to boxing on the amateur level especially because people had the mindset that it cushioned blows so they threw all caution to the wind allowing themselves to be hit instead of employing defense at all times.

But what people will do, overreacting, is to make fights shorter and the gloves bigger which in my view is not going to change anything. If anything it will make things more worse than it already is because it will force people to fight faster and harder to make more of an impact.

The real difference from the bare knuckle era was that nobody gave a shit about the fighters after they stopped and men regularly died in their 30s and 40s without any fanfare. It’s ludicrous to suggest that the sport was somehow safer back then. Utterly.

It was safer, to a point.

Had people had the medical or scientific knowledge that we have now, a lot of permanent injuries or deaths could have been prevented in the bare knuckle era.

The vast majority of the permanent injuries or deaths from that time was because of this "fight to the finish" mindset, putting people out there longer than they should have, or they were competitors with pre-existing conditions or were in no real condition to be competing in the first place, or because people were being knocked down or slammed down on concrete floors or hardwood floors.

Case in point, for the last example, was when Mike McCoole defeated Tom Jones for the American heavyweight title. Jones died not long after the match because McCoole suplexed him on top of his head in the middle of a woods where the fight was being held.

But when you had two competitors who had no underlying health issues all in their prime, fighting either on turf or on a proper ring, the damage that those people sustained was largely superficial--- again the term punch drunk didn't come around until the gloved era and time limited rounds started to really take off.

Whether people want to admit it or not fighting bare knuckle is actually safer than with gloves on. You can hit a man all day long as hard as you can with a glove on, the same can't be said of bare knuckles. People just think bare knuckle is more dangerous because the damage is visible, with gloves the damage is less visible because the real damage is being done internally because after all you can't stop kinetic energy going through your skull.

[Controversial]

But when you had two competitors who had no underlying health issues all in their prime, fighting either on turf or on a proper ring, the damage that those people sustained was largely superficial--- again the term punch drunk didn't come around until the gloved era and time limited rounds started to really take off.

That doesn't mean brain injuries didn't exist though. I'm sure there were fighters with brain damage back then too. Sometimes it manifests its self in other ways too before memory issues are noticed, change of behaviour and becoming reckless or getting involved in crime, gambling, drinking, drugs etc.. Same way certain illnesses were not known about in those times, people were ill or dying but the medical experts hadn't yet discovered the real cause. There are football (soccer) players with CTE issues just from heading a football, it's only really until fairly recent times that brain injuries are being looked at in other sports. Also there were "medical experts" back in the day dismissing that brain damage from boxing was even a thing.

[HomicideHenry]

It's possible that there were those who hypothesized potential brain damage from prize fighting in the 19th century and prior, but such ideas were put to the back burner because after all prizefighting was something of a fringe form of entertainment.

I suppose a fair and balanced view would be to compare brain damage statistics in MMA to boxing, since prize fighting in the 19th century and prior was essentially martial arts rather than strictly punching.

I think you would be more likely to find an individual who suffered from kidney and liver problems due to prize fighting back then than you would brain damage, since body punching was more emphasized in those days.

BTW, happy Thanksgiving
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

[Controversial]

It's possible that there were those who hypothesized potential brain damage from prize fighting in the 19th century and prior, but such ideas were put to the back burner because after all prizefighting was something of a fringe form of entertainment.

It still is put on the back burner, Ali was slurring and still fighting, so was Toney and others. Shocking what goes on.

Happy thanksgiving too, although I'm from the UK so not really sure what that means

[JMac]

i didnt know college boxing still existed tbh

In the US college boxing is administered by the National Collegiate Boxing Association (NCBA) since 1976. The last NCAA championships was in 1960. There are around 35 colleges and universities that compete each year with regionals and nationals. It’s designed for students with little to no previous experience unlike the NCAA days. There is university boxing in Ireland and the UK. I’m not sure if they have a national tournament.

[bollocks]

Donald Curry is in a bad way too, awful.

Really? That's sad to hear as Curry always came across as a decent fella

[Controversial]

Donald Curry is in a bad way too, awful.

Really? That's sad to hear as Curry always came across as a decent fella

Yes, his son posted about his dad needing help

https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/f ... eet/205957

Part of the message below...

“I have not been able to figure out how to do so. My father has declined mentally since I was in high school. He now sits in jail again, where he has spent quite a bit of my childhood, teenage and adult years. I didn’t feel for him at first when I was younger because I was unaware and uneducated on CTE and mental health. I didn’t realize what was going on. I had no idea why we would sit on the phone, and he would ramble for hours. He would ask me the same question multiple times in a conversation.

“He would forget where I went to school after telling him 100s of times or forget where I live. My family members would say he would talk to himself in the bathroom for periods of time. He would randomly be aggressive to someone. Instead, some feedback I receive, or when I look at people’s comments from the internet, people say, “that’s just the way he is,” “he’s crazy.”

[bollocks]

A local footballer turned boxer, suicided last year. During the post mortem he was found to have a severe case of CTE, most likely brought about by the years of hard knocks he took playing football. But he was also KO'd and stretchered from the ring in his pro debut which would not have helped one bit. He had 4 more fights afterwards. RIP Shane Tuck

[bollocks]

Donald Curry is in a bad way too, awful.

Really? That's sad to hear as Curry always came across as a decent fella

Yes, his son posted about his dad needing help

https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/f ... eet/205957

Part of the message below...

“I have not been able to figure out how to do so. My father has declined mentally since I was in high school. He now sits in jail again, where he has spent quite a bit of my childhood, teenage and adult years. I didn’t feel for him at first when I was younger because I was unaware and uneducated on CTE and mental health. I didn’t realize what was going on. I had no idea why we would sit on the phone, and he would ramble for hours. He would ask me the same question multiple times in a conversation.

“He would forget where I went to school after telling him 100s of times or forget where I live. My family members would say he would talk to himself in the bathroom for periods of time. He would randomly be aggressive to someone. Instead, some feedback I receive, or when I look at people’s comments from the internet, people say, “that’s just the way he is,” “he’s crazy.”

There's an obscene amount of money in boxing but unfortunately it's right at the very top. It'd be good to see some of it funneled into boxers' lives after their careers are over. Plenty have tried to get something up and running but it's always been on a small scale due to the fractured nature of boxing. It needs a central body or government department to arrange and run it

Ray Leonard should be helping Don Curry these days, just as he helped fukk his career over decades ago to suit his own agenda

[Controversial]

A local footballer turned boxer, suicided last year. During the post mortem he was found to have a severe case of CTE, most likely brought about by the years of hard knocks he took playing football. But he was also KO'd and stretchered from the ring in his pro debut which would not have helped one bit. He had 4 more fights afterwards. RIP Shane Tuck

Terrible. Some fighters struggle with mental health issues after boxing, struggle with life, go off the rails or seem to implode, it really does make you wonder if the damage they've received is causing that behaviour. It's often put down to other things, like they couldn't handle not being in the limelight anymore when in fact they could just be suffering from brain injuries.

[Controversial]

[
There's an obscene amount of money in boxing but unfortunately it's right at the very top. It'd be good to see some of it funneled into boxers' lives after their careers are over. Plenty have tried to get something up and running but it's always been on a small scale due to the fractured nature of boxing. It needs a central body or government department to arrange and run it

I agree, I know in the UK many years ago they they launched a boxers trade union to help fighters financially after boxing but not sure it was very successful.

[margaret thatcher]

too many powerful ppl with an interest in boxers not getting more power

[DavidKehler]

Anyone read Tris Dixon's book? Damaged. I have read only 3 chapters so can't comment yet but so far it's been very interesting

Everyone interested in boxing should read it. It is very sad.

[cfang]

I always thought that it was although nastier and messier bare knuckle boxing was safer than with gloves due to the brain trauma of hitting at will with a glove.

Obviously a much lower level than the championship fights of the regency or Victorian eras for example but interesting that kimbo slice and that cop gannon both died very young. I wonder if that kind of brutal fight has lasting damage too and wonder how many Bare knucklers of the past died young or had dementia.


quote=Controversial post_id=5659690 time=1637855011 user_id=979]

But when you had two competitors who had no underlying health issues all in their prime, fighting either on turf or on a proper ring, the damage that those people sustained was largely superficial--- again the term punch drunk didn't come around until the gloved era and time limited rounds started to really take off.

That doesn't mean brain injuries didn't exist though. I'm sure there were fighters with brain damage back then too. Sometimes it manifests its self in other ways too before memory issues are noticed, change of behaviour and becoming reckless or getting involved in crime, gambling, drinking, drugs etc.. Same way certain illnesses were not known about in those times, people were ill or dying but the medical experts hadn't yet discovered the real cause. There are football (soccer) players with CTE issues just from heading a football, it's only really until fairly recent times that brain injuries are being looked at in other sports. Also there were "medical experts" back in the day dismissing that brain damage from boxing was even a thing.
[/quote]

[Controversial]

I was listening to Carl Frampton talking about Tris Dixons book 'Damage' earlier on a podcast. He was saying in hindsight he regrets sparring so hard when he was younger, he said he would sometimes do 200 rounds sparring for one fight. He also said had he read this book when he was younger it may have changed the path he went on.

[Wee Tommy]

Fighters in UFC rarely spar hard to the head. It’s seen as detrimental. Which it is obviously long term.

Tony Jeffries Has a lot to say on this subject.