Archie Moore: prime Charles would have beaten Marciano

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Marciano was on the verge of being stopped on cuts in the second fight.

but rocky was also beating the shit out of charles. he had won every single of the first 7 rounds.

the cut was pretty much a fluke elbow charles caught marciano. an ELBOW, not a punch.

Nonetheless, at the end of round 7 Marciano was bleeding so heaviliy that the doc gave him one more round before the fight would be stopped. Marciano went then on all-out attack and delivered the KO, while Charles made the mistake to try to slug it out instead of running.

I can't see anything wrong with the statement "Chalres was on the edge of beating Marciano". Losing cuts is losing, beating on cuts is beating.

all 3 judged had marciano far ahead on points. charles caught marciano with an elbow. but charles was getting the shit beat out of him.


if the fight had been stopped under todays rules, marciano would have won a technical decision due to a accidental elbow




* o dont forget, marciano DID WIN THE FIGHT. he came out of his corner and knocked charles out






another myth is that the referee gave marciano 1 more round to knock out charles or he would stop the fight. this is a myth. the doctor was not going to stop the fight, at least not that soon. do u want a source ??

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

"Charles in 1948 was more fleet-footed and sharp than in '54, but the stamina, workrate, and sheer tenacity Charles possessed in that first fight nearly equal what he'd had in those times. Anyway, the Charles of '48 would have been more elusive than the Charles of '54, but he would never have been able to stand up to so much pressure and punishment and carry on at such an incredible pace as he did in '54. I think it pretty well balances out. Marciano by close decision or late stoppage."



in a 3 fight series


fight 1 charles 15 unanimous

fight 2 marciano KO 9 charles

fight 3 marciano KO 14 charles

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

archie moore saying a "prime charles beats marciano" thats fine. i can see that happening. charles was special. but am i gonna change my opinion cause archie said so? no. i dont agree with archie but i respect his opinion.

but was charles a "shell of his former self" when he fought marciano in june 1954? no way. even the biggest ezzard fans will admit thats a ludicrous statement to make.





- i dont think archie moore faced a peak marciano either

[Jaclem]

.....buzzhead....the only miracle in the charles/moore series is charles not knocking him out all three times.


re: archie on ezzard.....he said charles was one of the greatest fighters of all time. had every punch in his arsenal.....and one thing he had that sugar ray didn't have was charles was a great infighter.....could beat you from outside or in.

i am not putting quotation marks around the words because they are a summation from memory...not the exact words. he made these comments to a member of the family that originally managed ezzard.

these are archie's thoughts...not mine....though i do agree with them.


he also said ....and the above family member shared the annoyance...that he got upset when so many writers said that charles fought his greatest fight in the first marciano bout.......that if charles had fought his greatest fight he would have won.

[Jaclem]

.....buzzhead....the only miracle in the charles/moore series is charles not knocking him out all three times.


re: archie on ezzard.....he said charles was one of the greatest fighters of all time. had every punch in his arsenal.....and one thing he had that sugar ray didn't have was charles was a great infighter.....could beat you from outside or in.

i am not putting quotation marks around the words because they are a summation from memory...not the exact words. he made these comments to a member of the family that originally managed ezzard.

these are archie's thoughts...not mine....though i do agree with them.


he also said ....and the above family member shared the annoyance...that he got upset when so many writers said that charles fought his greatest fight in the first marciano bout.......that if charles had fought his greatest fight he would have won.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i believe the 1946-49 charles was incredibly similiar to sugar ray robinson. charles is unquestionably a top 10 fighter of all time IMO




- without even mention the words "prime or past prime", i would like to know how ezzard charles managed to stay on his feet those last 5 rounds in june 1954?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

hell its no disagrace for marciano to lose to a peak charles. a peak charles would beat many heavyweight champions through history. both marciano and charles are ATG's, and its a high mark on both legacys that charles was able to give a prime marciano a close gruelling fight in 1954, and a high mark on marcianos legacy since he was able to beat a june 1954 charles.


the charles-marciano I fight not only helped charles legacy, it also helped marcianos legacy alot too.

[evndrbsn]

TWICE? DID U SEE THE 2ND FIGHT? marciano beat the shit out of charles winning every round and knocking him down in the 2nd round. outside of the fluke cut, it was a massacre domination.


the first fight was a close but CLEAR unanimous decision for rock

Marciano was on the verge of being stopped on cuts in the second fight.

but rocky was also beating the shit out of charles. he had won every single of the first 7 rounds.



the cut was pretty much a fluke elbow charles caught marciano. an ELBOW, not a punch.

It was a punch, not an elbow. As I've shown you before, here is a cap of the shot.

http://www.freewebs.com/riddickbowe/mar ... arles2.png

Marciano, on the Main Event rebroadcast of the fight, said that it was a punch that split his nose. Stop trying to discredit Charles. Also, Marciano was not "beating the shit" out of Charles. Rocky was winning an exciting fight which was selected as Fight of the Year of 1954 by The Ring.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

be realistic, no punch ever caused an injury like that in the history of boxing. it had to be an elbow. i have other sources saying it was an elbow

Also, Marciano was not "beating the shit" out of Charles.

actually marciano was. im not discrediting charles to say he was dominanted by marciano in the rematch cause he was. i give charles enough credit in marciano I for pulling on a preformance like that when past his prime.


take a look at marciano-charles II scorecards


judges scores after 7 rounds.

1st judge - 6 rounds to 1 marciano

2nd judge- 6 rounds to 1 marciano

3rd judge- 5 rounds to 1 with 1 even marciano


- marciano also knocked charles down in the 2nd round. the 2nd fight was one sided. marciano controlled every round. charles was just trying to survive.


the first fight was a legite close fight, but the 2nd fight outside of the fluke cut was completley dominated by marciano. the only reason is was the fight of the year is because of that inhumane never seen before slice/cut to marcianos nose and the classic dramatic ending the next round when blood was pouring like a faucet from rockys nose. its only because of these 2 reasons. but the first 6 rounds they were not very exciting, they were dominated by marciano. this should not have been fight of the year over marciano-charles I.


the fact that the june 1954 marciano-charles fight didnt win fight over the year is a complete joke. the june 1954 one actually was close and competitive and had far more action.


its too bad we dont have some of charles best rounds on film from the marciano I fight. the following rounds are missing 2,3, 5, 7,8,9,11,,12,13,14. charles did some of his best work in those early rounds.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

marciano, louis, ray robinson are the 3 greatest rematch fighters i have ever seen

[pundit]

actually marciano was. im not discrediting charles to say he was dominanted by marciano in the rematch cause he was. i give charles enough credit in marciano I for pulling on a preformance like that when past his prime.

Still, had Charles not decided to go for war with Rocky in the 8th he would probably have won.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

actually marciano was. im not discrediting charles to say he was dominanted by marciano in the rematch cause he was. i give charles enough credit in marciano I for pulling on a preformance like that when past his prime.

Still, had Charles not decided to go for war with Rocky in the 8th he would probably have won.

he didnt try to go to war. by this point charles was worn down having taken 7 rounds of bad punishment and marciano was a bloody italian machine who became very desperate and he went right after charles and finished him off. u see marcianos handlers had marciano going crazy saying " get him now or u will bleed to death". this made marciano go crazy like hes never been before he was an unstoppable machine in that 8th round. marciano got him with 24 seconds left in the round.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

my father told me this story........


the reporters were asking ezzard questions about slicing marcianos nose, and then some reporters started making fun of marciano calling him ackward, crude, and asking ezz " a man that crude and easy to hit, how come u werent able to finish him when u had his nose sliced"(something like that)...........ezzard with a cold stare looked directley at the reporter and said.......... "you know something, marciano is a lot better than you and all of you people think." my father said ezzard said this with a dead serious cold expression on his face.

ezzard hardly ever went out of his way to compliment opponents




marciano called charles the "toughest fighter i ever faced" and right after the charles I fight marciano said "what can i say, it was my toughest fight."


peter marciano told me that marciano always talked about wut a great fighter charles was. peter told me how rocky used to tell him wut a perfect boxer charles was.





i wish charles had given marciano a title shot in 1951. marciano was absolutley at his peak then and charles was near his peak. this would have been a helluva fight. i feel marciano peak was the joe louis fight, most wont agree with me but this is just my opinion.

[evndrbsn]

be realistic, no punch ever caused an injury like that in the history of boxing. it had to be an elbow. i have other sources saying it was an elbow

Also, Marciano was not "beating the shit" out of Charles.

actually marciano was. im not discrediting charles to say he was dominanted by marciano in the rematch cause he was. i give charles enough credit in marciano I for pulling on a preformance like that when past his prime.


take a look at marciano-charles II scorecards


judges scores after 7 rounds.

1st judge - 6 rounds to 1 marciano

2nd judge- 6 rounds to 1 marciano

3rd judge- 5 rounds to 1 with 1 even marciano


- marciano also knocked charles down in the 2nd round. the 2nd fight was one sided. marciano controlled every round. charles was just trying to survive.


the first fight was a legite close fight, but the 2nd fight outside of the fluke cut was completley dominated by marciano. the only reason is was the fight of the year is because of that inhumane never seen before slice/cut to marcianos nose and the classic dramatic ending the next round when blood was pouring like a faucet from rockys nose. its only because of these 2 reasons. but the first 6 rounds they were not very exciting, they were dominated by marciano. this should not have been fight of the year over marciano-charles I.


the fact that the june 1954 marciano-charles fight didnt win fight over the year is a complete joke. the june 1954 one actually was close and competitive and had far more action.


its too bad we dont have some of charles best rounds on film from the marciano I fight. the following rounds are missing 2,3, 5, 7,8,9,11,,12,13,14. charles did some of his best work in those early rounds.

Wow, I didn't know that just because someone wins most of the rounds it means they are "beating the shit" out of their opponent. As you say, lets be realistic here. It was a competitive fight. By the way, I have a radio broadcast version of Marciano-Charles I that has rounds 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, and 15. Combine that with the video version and I have a pretty comprehensive version of the fight. Don Dunphy had the fight even going into the final round, with Marciano pulling it out. Marciano was hurt and staggered a couple times in the fight, which were rounds that were not shown on the Main Events version that Rocky narrates.

Oh, I'm glad that you know better than Rocky himself what he got hit with. In your view, he apparently wasn't smart enough to recall whether it was a punch or elbow and simply picked a punch at random. Get over it. There are two sources of proof that it was a punch readily at your disposal for studying. One is the film itself, which I gave you a screenshot of. The second is Marciano's own words, which accompany that film. Check it out, you might learn something.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

By the way, I have a radio broadcast version of Marciano-Charles I that has rounds 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, and 15. Combine that with the video version and I have a pretty comprehensive version of the fight. Don Dunphy had the fight even going into the final round, with Marciano pulling it out. Marciano was hurt and staggered a couple times in the fight, which were rounds that were not shown on the Main Events version that Rocky narrates.

wow i would love to get the radio broadcast! can u tell me the descriptions of rounds 2, 7, 8, 9 on the broadcast?


dunphy had it even going into the last round? thats suprising for all 3 judges and almost all ringsiders had marciano close but clearly in front. it was defintley very close but dunphy had it a bit closer than most.


consensus is marciano won about 9 rounds of the 15

[evndrbsn]

The Charles fights were close, one by decision, the other by being possibly stopped---either way Marciano won. Marciano had to up the ante in the second fight else he would lose his crown and he blew away Charles. In the first fight Charles was still a great fighter, and the fight was so heavily contested that there was only one clinch in 15 rounds.

Not exactly true. Referee Ruby Goldstein only had to say "break" in the later portions of the 15 rounder. Both clinched during the fight but either fought out of it or broke the hold quickly. This is apparent during the radio broadcast of the fight.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

evrnsbn,


the 2nd fight was not competitive. it was one sided. marciano won every round and knocked charles down 3 times. how is this a competitive fight??


[/quote]

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

yea referee ruby goldstien said after "i didnt have to break up the fighters once in 15 rounds." thats an amazing stat!

imagine john ruiz being able to pull off that stat?

[pundit]

Humble question, Brock. If you're barely 20 and your dad became a father at the normal age he will hardly have been born much before 1950 - probably later. How come he has all this first-hand experience with early 1950s fights?

(Just asking, no disrespect involved)

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Humble question, Brock. If you're barely 20 and your dad became a father at the normal age he will hardly have been born much before 1950 - probably later. How come he has all this first-hand experience with early 1950s fights?

(Just asking, no disrespect involved)

he never saw it live, he just read about it in the 1960s or 70s in a magazine

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i defintley want that broadcast description of round 2, 7, 8, 9 when u have a chance eversbn, sounds facinating.

[evndrbsn]

By the way, I have a radio broadcast version of Marciano-Charles I that has rounds 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, and 15. Combine that with the video version and I have a pretty comprehensive version of the fight. Don Dunphy had the fight even going into the final round, with Marciano pulling it out. Marciano was hurt and staggered a couple times in the fight, which were rounds that were not shown on the Main Events version that Rocky narrates.

wow i would love to get the radio broadcast! can u tell me the descriptions of rounds 2, 7, 8, 9 on the broadcast?


dunphy had it even going into the last round? thats suprising for all 3 judges and almost all ringsiders had marciano close but clearly in front.


consensus is marciano won about 9 rounds of the 15

Marciano was not clearly ahead going into round 15. He was ahead 7-5-2, 8-5-1, and 7-6-1. If you change those even rounds to rounds for Charles, you have an even fight.

The radio broadcast is part of Bill Cayton's Prime Time Boxing series. I was terribly disappointed since it wasn't the entire fight because I intended on splicing the blow-by-blow of Dunphy with the video version to make a complete fight. I might be able to describe the missing video rounds later.

By the way, I agree about the first fight being much better than the second. A crowd of 50,000 could be heard screaming in appreciation of the action. In my opinion, it sounds as if the best and most exciting rounds were excluded, which cheats all of us.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Marciano was not clearly ahead going into round 15. He was ahead 7-5-2, 8-5-1, and 7-6-1. If you change those even rounds to rounds for Charles, you have an even fight.

true but if u give those even rounds to marciano then u have 9-5, 9-5, and 8-6. even rounds are even rounds.

had charles won the last round, rock still would have won a majority decision

In my own opinion, i believe even if charles won the 15th round, marciano was still ahead enough to win the fight though much more narowwly by like 1-2 points.

there was no question to ringsiders after the final bell who won the fight. msot had rocky winning by about 3 rounds. two officials had rocky up by 3-4 rounds. but all commented on how close the fight was.


though marcianos handlers tend to agree with ur view.......


marcianos handlers told rocky going into the 15th round "win this round or u blow it"

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

The radio broadcast is part of Bill Cayton's Prime Time Boxing series. I was terribly disappointed since it wasn't the entire fight because I intended on splicing the blow-by-blow of Dunphy with the video version to make a complete fight. I might be able to describe the missing video rounds later.

By the way, I agree about the first fight being much better than the second. A crowd of 50,000 could be heard screaming in appreciation of the action. In my opinion, it sounds as if the best and most exciting rounds were excluded, which cheats all of us.

agreed!


one thing to notice on film. take a look at rounds 1 and 4, of marciano and charles then take a look at round 15. the punishment both(ESPECIALLY CHARLES) took in those 15 rounds was horrible. charles face going into the 15th round compared to the 1st round is almost unrecognizable.

[evndrbsn]

The radio broadcast is part of Bill Cayton's Prime Time Boxing series. I was terribly disappointed since it wasn't the entire fight because I intended on splicing the blow-by-blow of Dunphy with the video version to make a complete fight. I might be able to describe the missing video rounds later.

By the way, I agree about the first fight being much better than the second. A crowd of 50,000 could be heard screaming in appreciation of the action. In my opinion, it sounds as if the best and most exciting rounds were excluded, which cheats all of us.

agreed!


one thing to notice on film. take a look at rounds 1 and 4, of marciano and charles then take a look at round 15. the punishment both(ESPECIALLY CHARLES) took in those 15 rounds was horrible. charles face going into the 15th round compared to the 1st round is almost unrecognizable.

Charles started his professional career at middleweight and it shows in some of his bigger contests. The punishment his face took against Louis even though he clearly won is a testament of how much "natural" weight he was giving up. The same holds true against Marciano, even though they weighed nearly the same. I don't think you can always judge the fight by how each boxer looked at the end because not every person absorbs punishment the same way. He looked worse at the end of the Louis fight than either of the Marciano fight and he didn't take a lot of punishment against Joe.

Even still, Charles DID in fact take a large amount of punishment against Marciano. In a couple of the rounds, he was hurt and taking an enormous battering before pulling a "Holyfield" and rallying when Marciano tired. This probably can attest for the difference in rearranged facial structures at the end of Marciano-Charles I