Time for everyone to realise why Lennox was one of the best

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Jul 2006, 09:19

yiddo14 wrote:
dr_devious wrote:Apart from the Ali, Frazier, Foreman era, when was the heavyweight division stronger than the 90s?
Exactly.The answer is probably never.
In fact the only difference between Ali,Frazier,Foreman,Norton era and the 90s is they all faced each other,in their primes and produced classic fights.
Could you imagine the sort of classic fights we were robbed of by Lewis,Bowe,Holyfield and Tyson not all getting it on in their primes?
I feel cheated!!!!!!

For me it's (1) 1970s, (2) 1930s (Louis, Schmeling, Baer, Sharkey, Carnera, Braddock), (3) 1990s, (4) 1950s (Marciano, Walcott, Charles, Moore, Patterson).

This said, there are some 1950s aficionados around here who would rank this differently..

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 28 Jul 2006, 13:54

yiddo14 wrote:
dr_devious wrote:Apart from the Ali, Frazier, Foreman era, when was the heavyweight division stronger than the 90s?
Exactly.The answer is probably never.
In fact the only difference between Ali,Frazier,Foreman,Norton era and the 90s is they all faced each other,in their primes and produced classic fights.
Could you imagine the sort of classic fights we were robbed of by Lewis,Bowe,Holyfield and Tyson not all getting it on in their primes?
I feel cheated!!!!!!

Haha, so Morrison, Tua, Grant, Rahman, Mercer made a 'GREAT' HW era? . . . .that's laughable.

Holyfield beat Lewis in a close fight in their rematch. Watching film of Holyfield vs Cooper, Douglas, Foreman, one can see a prime Holyfield rips Lewis apart with counter-punches.

Flump · Post by **Flump** » 28 Jul 2006, 14:23

Collins2000 wrote:
Flump wrote:
Collins2000 wrote: Oh, I don't know about that. The KO that the mediocre Rahman put on Lewis was pretty spectacular too...

"Lewis defeated every fighter he fought, was the best of his generation and ducked nobody." - Probably true but the very best fighters he beat were well past their best and most of the others were a pretty mediocre bunch. Apart from Holyfield and Tyson (both past their best and, in the case of Tyson, shockingly so, which of Lennox's opponents would you say are future hall of famers?
Rahman's kayo of Lewis was equally spectacular but I'm talking up Lewis, not The Rock.

HOF candidates? Can't think of any outside Tyson and Holyfield, but you can only beat what's around at the time, and he did.
That's true but my point is that beating a mob of mediocrities, even if they
were the best around at the time, doesn't equate with with what the true
all time greats have done. Throw into the mix the fact that 2 of these
average blokes were able to KO Lewis and, to me, you aren't talking about a top 10 of all time heavyweight. Who else in the potential top
10 didn't beat a single future hall of famer who was also in his prime AND
got KO'd by TWO very ordinary contenders?

It depends who you rate as the top 10. I think by general consensus Ali,Louis, Johnson, Marciano,Holmes. Foreman and Dempsey make most lists but I think there is room for Lewis in the top 10. After all only Ali's record in terms of opposition is beyond some sort of question. Would Lewis have a better record than the pre 1960's heavyweights faced with the same opposition? Fighters can only dominate their era.

Some may cringe at this but who's to say McCall or Rahman couldn't have done the same to the much lighter fighters of yesteryear like Dempsey and Louis. Joe Louis got dropped by Tony Galento after all. Would Galento have landed a shot on Lewis? Would Jess Willard have beaten Oliver McCall? Who knows.

Lewis was a championship level fighter for over 10 years and cleaned out the division and retired on top. I'm not saying he's the best but he's definately lower top 10 for me.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 28 Jul 2006, 16:10

dempseyfire wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:
dr_devious wrote:Apart from the Ali, Frazier, Foreman era, when was the heavyweight division stronger than the 90s?
Exactly.The answer is probably never.
In fact the only difference between Ali,Frazier,Foreman,Norton era and the 90s is they all faced each other,in their primes and produced classic fights.
Could you imagine the sort of classic fights we were robbed of by Lewis,Bowe,Holyfield and Tyson not all getting it on in their primes?
I feel cheated!!!!!!
Haha, so Morrison, Tua, Grant, Rahman, Mercer made a 'GREAT' HW era? . . . .that's laughable.

Holyfield beat Lewis in a close fight in their rematch. Watching film of Holyfield vs Cooper, Douglas, Foreman, one can see a prime Holyfield rips Lewis apart with counter-punches.

I never said these fighters made for a great era.
I said that potentially the 90s couldhave been as great as any era.If Lewis,Tyson,Bowe and Holyfield would have fought in the early to mid 90s they would have produced classic fights.Maybe even legendary fights.

As for you slating the B level 90s guys,well they are just as good as the Chuck Wepners,Richard Dunns and Ron Lyles of the 70s.

As for Holyfield RIPPING Lewis apart with counter punches...hmmm,thats almost as silly as saying Holyfield won their 2nd fight against a lacklustre 50% Lewis.
Face it,Lennox Lewis had too much for Holyfield at ANY time of his career.Anyone who seriously disagrees with this is slightly blinded by their Holy love.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 28 Jul 2006, 16:13

yiddo14 wrote:Lewis would have beat Tyson and Holyfield at ANY point in their career.

Also,I remember that Holyfield before the Lewis fight was regarded as this monster slaying giant,who was somehow getting better.Yet after Lewis schooled him,he was instantly over the hill,way past it.

Joe Louis constantly beat all time greats did'nt he?
All of the greats Marciano beat were young,prime and in their peak were'nt they? I mean Louis 38,Walcott 39 and of course a prime 39 yr old Archie Moore.
Let's not forget the prime Ali Larry Holmes dealt with,and of course the top level,grade a legends he faced constantly.

Lewis' standard of opposition was'nt any worse than these guys.
You can't blame Lewis for the apparent lack of competition.His main career defining fight would have been Bowe probably,but unfortunately Bowe was scared of Lewis and did'nt fancy a repeat of the olympic final beating.

You seem to have missed the 2nd part of my arguement, Namely, that Lewis was also KO'd by 2 of the moderate contenders he faced. Were any of the all time greats you mentioned KO'd by the likes of Oliver McCall or Hasim Rahman whilst in or near their prime?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 28 Jul 2006, 16:14

All of the greats Marciano beat were young,prime and in their peak were'nt they? I mean Louis 38,Walcott 39 and of course a prime 39 yr old Archie Moore.

yea ur right.

i mean all of the greats lennox lewis beat were young, prime, and in there peak werent they? i mean tyson was 37, holyfield 38

* just in case ur wondering, i moved tyson and holyfields age UP a year. the same way u moved walcotts, louis's and moores.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 28 Jul 2006, 16:20

holy was far past it vs lennox. he looks dismal right before he fought lewis vs bean, he looked disman in lewis I fight, and he looked dismal right after he fought lewis vs john ruiz.

- not to mention i think holy beat lennox in the rematch. goes to show u how great lennox is

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 28 Jul 2006, 16:27

For me it's (1) 1970s, (2) 1930s (Louis, Schmeling, Baer, Sharkey, Carnera, Braddock), (3) 1990s, (4) 1950s (Marciano, Walcott, Charles, Moore, Patterson).

1930s? wuts with u and the 1930s. carnera and braddock were not very good. baer was very crude and inconsistent, sharkey was great but inconsistent and never had ATG preformance, schmeling was very legit though.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 28 Jul 2006, 16:38

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
For me it's (1) 1970s, (2) 1930s (Louis, Schmeling, Baer, Sharkey, Carnera, Braddock), (3) 1990s, (4) 1950s (Marciano, Walcott, Charles, Moore, Patterson).

1930s? wuts with u and the 1930s. carnera and braddock were not very good. baer was very crude and inconsistent, sharkey was inconsistent and never had ATG preformance, schmeling was very legit though.

Yes, I am amazed at how crude Baer looks on film at times. He even tried a few hammer fists on Schmeling. Still, he got the job done.

hawaiianpunch · Post by **hawaiianpunch** » 28 Jul 2006, 17:43

I'd say Lewis at his best would be competitive with any HW in history. He's definately top ten all time. Possibly top 5 in my book. He also avenged his only 2 losses and beat a lot of up and comers and former champs, he didn't fight weaker competition than anyone else. Beating Golota, Grant, Tua, Tyson, Holy twice, Ruddock, Klitschko etc is just as good as most of the top guys.