Jackson - Duran
Jackson - Duran
Could Duran roll it back one more time to beat Jackson at 154 or 160?
re
That's true, but Duran was moving up heavier and heavier from lightweight and other than stopping Davey Moore, I don't think Duran ever stopped any real quality fighter above 147.
Actually, I cannot really think of any top ranked welterweights the he stopped except Cuevas and maybe Monroe Brooks...though I don't recall the weight they fought at.
It seemed that Duran lost his punch after moving up from lightweight. He was still a vicious battler, but his ability to really hurt a fighter with a couple of hard punches just was not there after he moved up in weight like it was at 135 and as a result I don't think he could really do any serious damage to Jackson's chin, which as you stated was not the best chin in the world. But unlike many others, Duran was able to adapt when moving up in weight and still won without the vicious punching power that frightened all the lightweights of his time.
Actually, I cannot really think of any top ranked welterweights the he stopped except Cuevas and maybe Monroe Brooks...though I don't recall the weight they fought at.
It seemed that Duran lost his punch after moving up from lightweight. He was still a vicious battler, but his ability to really hurt a fighter with a couple of hard punches just was not there after he moved up in weight like it was at 135 and as a result I don't think he could really do any serious damage to Jackson's chin, which as you stated was not the best chin in the world. But unlike many others, Duran was able to adapt when moving up in weight and still won without the vicious punching power that frightened all the lightweights of his time.
I totally agree with you, Barry. Duran left the real KO power at 135. He was never really in shape again after the first leonard fight. I mean he never had that hard, toned look to him again. he was in good enough shape to fight and his skill saw him through but he was essentially a short fat man between fights.
Jackson had numbing power but Duran went the distance with Hagler and Barkley. If he could avoid Jackson's bombs early on could he rallied late?
Jackson had numbing power but Duran went the distance with Hagler and Barkley. If he could avoid Jackson's bombs early on could he rallied late?
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overhand_right
- Heavyweight
It's that image that keeps coming back to me. Despite jackson's size and power Duran can win this fight.overhand_right wrote:You guys are crazy. Duran a super slick defensive genius, Jackson a guy who hurls nuclear bombs but telegraphs them all. Anything could happen but i think Duran outsmarts a guy like this as he did Barkley PS he still had the power to dump the huge Blade on the canvas.
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overhand_right
- Heavyweight
Barry, Hearns was a huge tall guy with massive reach advantages throwing long sharp straight knockout shots.
Jackson also throws knockout shots however he lacks the speed & skills of the Hitman & is way more basic and predictable. Anything is possible with The Hawk but if we all had to bet money i cant see many going against Manos De Piedres!
Jackson also throws knockout shots however he lacks the speed & skills of the Hitman & is way more basic and predictable. Anything is possible with The Hawk but if we all had to bet money i cant see many going against Manos De Piedres!
Assuming that Duran is 'on' for this fight and made the weight in the right way I see a fit and focused Duran being too smart for Jackson.
Sure anything can happen with Jacksons wrecking ball fists but he is a totally different animal to the sharp shooting Hearns who caught Duran cold, something I doubt he could have repeated.
The Duran who beat Barkley beats the Jackson who beat Herol Graham in my mind.
Durans 'cute' defence allows him to slip Jacksons huge, but wide bombs then The Hands Of Stone will use his counterpunching skills to out outwork and outpunch Jackson.
Duran on points or maybe stoppage if Jacksons eyes swell up like they did in the Graham fight.
Sure anything can happen with Jacksons wrecking ball fists but he is a totally different animal to the sharp shooting Hearns who caught Duran cold, something I doubt he could have repeated.
The Duran who beat Barkley beats the Jackson who beat Herol Graham in my mind.
Durans 'cute' defence allows him to slip Jacksons huge, but wide bombs then The Hands Of Stone will use his counterpunching skills to out outwork and outpunch Jackson.
Duran on points or maybe stoppage if Jacksons eyes swell up like they did in the Graham fight.
re
Jackson was very fast and what also made him so dangerous was that he threw rather short, compact punches...it wasn't wild and wide hooks...his was quick and hard and he hit as hard as Hearns if not harder.
Hearns had the vicious right hand, but Jackson could take an opponent out with either hand and with about any kind of punch other than the jab. The only way I see Duran winning is if he can stay away from the power, which he very well could do, but if Jackson lands then it is going to be Hearns-Duran all over. Jackson was bigger and stronger than Duran and though Duran had an edge in skill it wasn't like Jackson was a one dimensional slugger, he could box quite well.
Duran would be at a disadvantage in most era's except skill and experience against top fighters and though he did very well against Hagler and Barkley neither are Julian Jackson and neither could punch like Jackson. Duran was almost superhuman at lightweight...he was formidable at welterweight and at middleweight his experience carried him through some impressive performances, but Duran just simply was not a middleweight...Jackson was and his power would dictate the fight because once Duran tasted the power he would not be the balls-out warrior that he was at lighter weights and against Hagler and Barkley. That being said could Duran win...absolutely, but he would have to be at the top of his game and make no mistakes because all it would take would be one shot from Jackson to turn the lights out!
Hearns had the vicious right hand, but Jackson could take an opponent out with either hand and with about any kind of punch other than the jab. The only way I see Duran winning is if he can stay away from the power, which he very well could do, but if Jackson lands then it is going to be Hearns-Duran all over. Jackson was bigger and stronger than Duran and though Duran had an edge in skill it wasn't like Jackson was a one dimensional slugger, he could box quite well.
Duran would be at a disadvantage in most era's except skill and experience against top fighters and though he did very well against Hagler and Barkley neither are Julian Jackson and neither could punch like Jackson. Duran was almost superhuman at lightweight...he was formidable at welterweight and at middleweight his experience carried him through some impressive performances, but Duran just simply was not a middleweight...Jackson was and his power would dictate the fight because once Duran tasted the power he would not be the balls-out warrior that he was at lighter weights and against Hagler and Barkley. That being said could Duran win...absolutely, but he would have to be at the top of his game and make no mistakes because all it would take would be one shot from Jackson to turn the lights out!
I'm one of those that believe that Duran-Hearns II would likely never be repeated at least in anywhere near the same manner. Anyone can be taken out if they are hit and even with a guy like Duran it's going to happen once in a while. But I don't think that encounter would be the "average" encounter between the two.
With that said....I think the most likely outcome is that a slick rather hard hitting Duran gets the job done in 15 or 12 on the Judges Scorecards. But Julian has that Serious Puncher's Chance that came through very well for Tommy. Lightning can strike twice in the same spot....it just doesn't happen very often.
With that said....I think the most likely outcome is that a slick rather hard hitting Duran gets the job done in 15 or 12 on the Judges Scorecards. But Julian has that Serious Puncher's Chance that came through very well for Tommy. Lightning can strike twice in the same spot....it just doesn't happen very often.
Unlike other fighters, Duran would not be intimidated by Jackson and would not be as succebtible to being caugt while standing still or moving away. Duran would then swarm Jackson without allowing the Hawk to plant his feet and unleash one of those bombs. Being somewhat fragile mentally, this would probably throw Jackson off his gameplan and leave him vulnerable to combinations such as the five punch barrage Duran unleashed on Barkley.
re
Duran was dropped by a lot lesser punchers than Jackson and as I said, Duran simply lost his intimidating punching power after he moved up to 147.
Duran could win, but it sure as hell would not be by swarming a puncher like Jackson...he would have to use all his skill and box smart because if he tried to swarm Jackson he would eventually get caught with a big shot and unlike Esteban DeJesus...Jackson could finish Duran off as good as anyone.
And if the bout would have came of, which someone stated probably around 1990...Jackson would have probably brutally KO'd Duran...hell...patty-cake puncher Pat Lawlor made him quit around that time.
Duran would have to be at his very best and as I said he would have to fight almost a perfect fight because all it would take would be one good punch, which that one might not do the trick, but the follow-up would!
Sorry, but the 160 pound Duran just simply was leagues away from the 135 pound Duran and they were no where near the same effective type of fighter! I think some people cannot distinguish the 135 pound Duran from the 147 and 160 pound Duran. He was another level at 135, but 160 he's not even an all-time top 30 ranked fighter...maybe not even top 50.
Duran could win, but it sure as hell would not be by swarming a puncher like Jackson...he would have to use all his skill and box smart because if he tried to swarm Jackson he would eventually get caught with a big shot and unlike Esteban DeJesus...Jackson could finish Duran off as good as anyone.
And if the bout would have came of, which someone stated probably around 1990...Jackson would have probably brutally KO'd Duran...hell...patty-cake puncher Pat Lawlor made him quit around that time.
Duran would have to be at his very best and as I said he would have to fight almost a perfect fight because all it would take would be one good punch, which that one might not do the trick, but the follow-up would!
Sorry, but the 160 pound Duran just simply was leagues away from the 135 pound Duran and they were no where near the same effective type of fighter! I think some people cannot distinguish the 135 pound Duran from the 147 and 160 pound Duran. He was another level at 135, but 160 he's not even an all-time top 30 ranked fighter...maybe not even top 50.
Re: re
Couldn't agree more.barry wrote:
. . .
Sorry, but the 160 pound Duran just simply was leagues away from the 135 pound Duran and they were no where near the same effective type of fighter! I think some people cannot distinguish the 135 pound Duran from the 147 and 160 pound Duran. He was another level at 135, . . .
Hagler embarrassed himself having to work so hard to win a decision over Duran.
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Re: re
Damn! When you hate fighteres you really tear into them, too bad nobody listens to your nonsense.barry wrote:Duran was dropped by a lot lesser punchers than Jackson and as I said, Duran simply lost his intimidating punching power after he moved up to 147.
Duran could win, but it sure as hell would not be by swarming a puncher like Jackson...he would have to use all his skill and box smart because if he tried to swarm Jackson he would eventually get caught with a big shot and unlike Esteban DeJesus...Jackson could finish Duran off as good as anyone.
And if the bout would have came of, which someone stated probably around 1990...Jackson would have probably brutally KO'd Duran...hell...patty-cake puncher Pat Lawlor made him quit around that time.
Duran would have to be at his very best and as I said he would have to fight almost a perfect fight because all it would take would be one good punch, which that one might not do the trick, but the follow-up would!
Sorry, but the 160 pound Duran just simply was leagues away from the 135 pound Duran and they were no where near the same effective type of fighter! I think some people cannot distinguish the 135 pound Duran from the 147 and 160 pound Duran. He was another level at 135, but 160 he's not even an all-time top 30 ranked fighter...maybe not even top 50.
Re: re
And it had nothing to do with what Duran was doing right, lol.granberry wrote:Couldn't agree more.barry wrote:
. . .
Sorry, but the 160 pound Duran just simply was leagues away from the 135 pound Duran and they were no where near the same effective type of fighter! I think some people cannot distinguish the 135 pound Duran from the 147 and 160 pound Duran. He was another level at 135, . . .
Hagler embarrassed himself having to work so hard to win a decision over Duran.
.
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hawaiianpunch
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 89
- Joined: 15 Feb 2003, 14:54
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overhand_right
- Heavyweight
Barry
With each post your losing credibility. Your dismissing all of Durans best assets & seriously over-estimating Jacksons. Duran got knocked down a few times yes, but how many times did he stay down in that 33 yr career? Now Jackson on the other hand, thats a guy who got knocked down & out many times.
You dont think Durans a real middleweight. He beat Iran Barkley, a huge power punching middleweight with a rock skull, and possesed the power to hurt & put him down (Hearns couldnt). Jackson was no more a middlweight than Duran. He was best at super-welter. At middle he scraped the belt within seconds of losing with a hail mary shot. Then like all DK champs he was fed a string of sub-par opponents before the first solid one, Thomas Tate, again nearly relieved him of his belt. Then the G-Man iced him with back to back knockouts. Against these guys his 'short compact punching & boxing skills' you claim he possessed weren't in evidence. If he has a boxing brain like you think, he definitely didnt use it in any of his serious fights.
Jacksons wide swinging punches resulted in some spectacular KOs but not against anyone of Durans quality, whereas you can reel off a whole list of fighters Duran murdered who were superior or at least comparable to Jackson.
And since your going to bring up a fat 40 yr old Duran suffering an arm injury v Pat Lawlor then i think its only fair we remember Quincy Taylor leaving Jackson face down on the canvas, or journeymen like Anthony Jones & Verno Phillips giving us brutal reminders of The Hawks chin limitations!
With each post your losing credibility. Your dismissing all of Durans best assets & seriously over-estimating Jacksons. Duran got knocked down a few times yes, but how many times did he stay down in that 33 yr career? Now Jackson on the other hand, thats a guy who got knocked down & out many times.
You dont think Durans a real middleweight. He beat Iran Barkley, a huge power punching middleweight with a rock skull, and possesed the power to hurt & put him down (Hearns couldnt). Jackson was no more a middlweight than Duran. He was best at super-welter. At middle he scraped the belt within seconds of losing with a hail mary shot. Then like all DK champs he was fed a string of sub-par opponents before the first solid one, Thomas Tate, again nearly relieved him of his belt. Then the G-Man iced him with back to back knockouts. Against these guys his 'short compact punching & boxing skills' you claim he possessed weren't in evidence. If he has a boxing brain like you think, he definitely didnt use it in any of his serious fights.
Jacksons wide swinging punches resulted in some spectacular KOs but not against anyone of Durans quality, whereas you can reel off a whole list of fighters Duran murdered who were superior or at least comparable to Jackson.
And since your going to bring up a fat 40 yr old Duran suffering an arm injury v Pat Lawlor then i think its only fair we remember Quincy Taylor leaving Jackson face down on the canvas, or journeymen like Anthony Jones & Verno Phillips giving us brutal reminders of The Hawks chin limitations!
Re: re
Hagler was very poor against Duran.granberry wrote:Couldn't agree more.barry wrote:
. . .
Sorry, but the 160 pound Duran just simply was leagues away from the 135 pound Duran and they were no where near the same effective type of fighter! I think some people cannot distinguish the 135 pound Duran from the 147 and 160 pound Duran. He was another level at 135, . . .
Hagler embarrassed himself having to work so hard to win a decision over Duran.
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Everyone, let's not forget Jackson's body punching, especially on a flabby Duran who had to work off ppl's mistakes.
Some ppl may remember Jackson as being more crude than he really was. Remember, Jackson has serious problems with his eyes from around 1990 onward. especially after that sickening left hand that herol graham shot into one of his eyes, i think he had two bad eyes... carl king was giving jackson directions in the first mcclellan fight, probably cos he couldn't see where he was going properly.
re
Duran was a legend lightweight...he was very good bordering on great at welterweight...at middleweight he was a little fat man who was able to rise to the occasion against Hagler and as to Barkley...well he was about as crude as a fighter gets. It's just funny to me how some people think some fighters were the same in every division they moved up in.
As was mentioned by me, Duran never knocked out anyone of any note at 147 and above except Davey Moore and Pipino Cuevas, but then again Hearns ruined Cuevas and his chin, or actually his confidence was never the same, but as far as having the kind of punch to change a fight, Duran didn't after lightweight...Jackson did.
As I have said two, or three times...the only way Duran wins is if he fights a perfect fight, but how many times did he do that after moving up...once, twice? And as viciousmaussa stated Jackson was a very good body-puncher, but his power is what would be the telling factor...just like Hearns, who Jackson probably hit harder than.
Duran would have to fight a fight that was completely opposite of his style...he would not bull his way in, nor would he be able to pressure Jackson. Her could out-smart Jackson, but the big if would be whether, or not he could make it twelve rounds without being tagged because unlike the crude and clubbing Barkley, Julian Jackson had sharp, crisp atomic bombs in both mitts.
But the most important thing to remember is this...Duran at 160 was pretty ordinary, well not ordinary, but he certainly was nothing special at that weight and some of you should realize that the 160 Duran was no where near the same fighter as the 135 Duran...which that is simple to see for most of us!
As was mentioned by me, Duran never knocked out anyone of any note at 147 and above except Davey Moore and Pipino Cuevas, but then again Hearns ruined Cuevas and his chin, or actually his confidence was never the same, but as far as having the kind of punch to change a fight, Duran didn't after lightweight...Jackson did.
As I have said two, or three times...the only way Duran wins is if he fights a perfect fight, but how many times did he do that after moving up...once, twice? And as viciousmaussa stated Jackson was a very good body-puncher, but his power is what would be the telling factor...just like Hearns, who Jackson probably hit harder than.
Duran would have to fight a fight that was completely opposite of his style...he would not bull his way in, nor would he be able to pressure Jackson. Her could out-smart Jackson, but the big if would be whether, or not he could make it twelve rounds without being tagged because unlike the crude and clubbing Barkley, Julian Jackson had sharp, crisp atomic bombs in both mitts.
But the most important thing to remember is this...Duran at 160 was pretty ordinary, well not ordinary, but he certainly was nothing special at that weight and some of you should realize that the 160 Duran was no where near the same fighter as the 135 Duran...which that is simple to see for most of us!
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
Re: re
Bull his way in? Are you talking about Roberto Duran? I would hardly say that his "style" was to "bull his way in", although he did this on occasion against boxers and movers. Are you sure you've actually seen him fight?barry wrote:Duran would have to fight a fight that was completely opposite of his style...he would not bull his way in...
BTW I think JJ would have been tough for Duran as well, but your comment about Duran's "style" almost makes it seem like you don't know anything about the finer points of boxing, and I know that's not true.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32