Classic American West Coast Boxing

[Chuck1052]

Roger & Chuck:

Joe Bugner actually lived in southern California for several years, between 1978 and 1981. At the time he was semi-retired, apparently having broken ties with his English manager Andy Smith. Bugner made a foray into the movie industry during his years in the Los Angeles area. However, during this period, there were periodic reports in the newspapers and boxing magazines that Bugner was planning to restart his boxing career, this time being based in Los Angeles.

My question is, did either of you guys encounter Bugner during his California years, and if so, did you get any inside information about his supposed intention to resume boxing? Did you know any Los Angeles area fight people who knew about Bugner's boxing status at this time? I'm asking because I assume Bugner must have been going to the gyms to spar, and he must have been hobnobbing with local managers and trainers about starting a comeback.

Bugner was still pretty young during 1978-81. You'd think he had the potential to regroup and get back into the world ratings. I also wondered if Bugner's career stalled because he wasn't that serious about a comeback, or if the American managers and promoters were reluctant to invest money in him for some reason (maybe they feared litigation with Joe's original manager, Andy Smith).

No, I never saw Joe Bugner in person even though he lived in the Los Angeles area for a time, in the community of Encino, as I recall. He later moved to Australia. Bugner was a talented boxer with some skills and good durability, but seemed to lack the fire in belly, resulting in him having some indifferent, boring performances.

- Chuck Johnston

[dagosd2000]

Hi Roger: Griffith is a personal favorite and his condition was very sad- as is the condition of Terry Norris; did you ever see Norris fight in San Diego ?

I saw Terry Norris fight Gilbert Baptist at the El Cortez HoTel in downtown San Diego.A real barn burner.The scribes voted it fight of the year in San Diego.Terry getting the nod.Baptist was Norris' main sparring partner for Terry when he fought Ray Leonard.James Kinchen talks once in a while to Norris on the phone.James tells me that Terry is in the depths of dementia. Very sad.

[dagosd2000]

Roger & Chuck:

Joe Bugner actually lived in southern California for several years, between 1978 and 1981. At the time he was semi-retired, apparently having broken ties with his English manager Andy Smith. Bugner made a foray into the movie industry during his years in the Los Angeles area. However, during this period, there were periodic reports in the newspapers and boxing magazines that Bugner was planning to restart his boxing career, this time being based in Los Angeles.

My question is, did either of you guys encounter Bugner during his California years, and if so, did you get any inside information about his supposed intention to resume boxing? Did you know any Los Angeles area fight people who knew about Bugner's boxing status at this time? I'm asking because I assume Bugner must have been going to the gyms to spar, and he must have been hobnobbing with local managers and trainers about starting a comeback.

Bugner was still pretty young during 1978-81. You'd think he had the potential to regroup and get back into the world ratings. I also wondered if Bugner's career stalled because he wasn't that serious about a comeback, or if the American managers and promoters were reluctant to invest money in him for some reason (maybe they feared litigation with Joe's original manager, Andy Smith).

No, I never saw Joe Bugner in person even though he lived in the Los Angeles area for a time, in the community of Encino, as I recall. He later moved to Australia. Bugner was a talented boxer with some skills and good durability, but seemed to lack the fire in belly, resulting in him having some indifferent, boring performances.

- Chuck Johnston

The only time I saw Bugner is when he attended a fight at the San Diego Coliseum.I couldn't believe he wasn't introducd to the crowd.He was sitting with the matchmaker Mickey Davies..

[dagosd2000]

My wife Maria putting the great Emile Griffith at ease.

[dagosd2000]

Man Around Town

I saw scores of fights at the San Diego Coliseum but I never saw Archie Moore at one of the cards. I don't know why.It probably wasn't for any particular reason. He had his boys club.He was helping train fighters like Foreman to one day beat the guy who he thought had made fun of him-Muhammad Ali.I saw Moore once at a fight in Tijuana where Ruben Olivares,the bantamweight champ then,was fighting a non title go against some Japanese nobody.This was at the bullring.I've run this by you before.Archie got the standing ovation and was blowing kisses to the crowd.They cheered Ruben but everybody was sitting down when they were putting their putting their hands together.

But if a local in San Diego wanted to get a glimpse of Archie Moore all he had to do was roam Southeast San Diego or the surrounding area and sooner or later he'd catch him walking out of C&M Meats with an armload of chicken and chops or catch him at Mesa College Stadium sitting in the stands by himself watching his son play in a football game. At the Hall Of Champions in Balboa Park ,if there was a ceremony inducting a San Diegan into its hallowed chambers,Archie would be there ready with a speech coated with some his words of wisdom..The annual Martin Luther King parade in the ghetto is where you'd see Archie seated in the big Cadillac convertible with the top rolled down leading the marchers through the streets around Lincoln High School ,and then at the post afternoon festivities at Ocean View Park where he had his barbeque chicken stand vending his grilled birds that were basted in his "secret" sauce ,the recipe only privy in his mind. Archie would be tapping his foot to the riffs of the master of the Hammond B3 organ Jimmy Smith.

LIke I said,I don't know why I never saw Archie Moore at one of those fights at the Coliseum.Maybe he was there when I wasn't.Or maybe he was back in his kitchen at his house in Southeast with the swimming pool shaped like a boxer's glove,cooking up a mess mess of barbeque brushing that "secret" sauce all over getting ready for one of his block parties.



Archie Moore and fellow San Diegan,Ted Willams,at the Hall Of Champions.


The OL' Mongoose

[dagosd2000]

The Champion From Jiquilpan

Julio Diaz was the IBF lightweight champion for a spell in the early part of the 21st century. That was a time when you had as many titles and boxing confederations as Carter had pills.Julio's belt was a bit flimsy but not to take anything away from him he was a decent fighter to give him a kudo.The gist of my post is that he was born in my wife's hometown ,referred to as a "ranchita",in Paredones,Mexico which is in the state of Michoacan.

BoxRec has him down as being from Jiquilpan which is down the mountain from Paredones.Jiquilpan is a metropolis compared to to Paredones.The little "ranchita" must by now have a population o at least 50. Jiquilpan is bursting at the seams with 15 thousand habitantes.

Paredones used to have more people riding their horses up and down the dirt roads but then came the economic crisis which only threw gasoline on the fire ,and then the narcos decided that Paredones was as good a place as any to rape and plunder so the people took to the hills or the United States.But Julio's parents got out of Dodge before all that happened and moved to California when Julio was a baby.

They may have lost memory of my pal Rodolfo Gonzalez who fought three times in Jiquilpan but the locals are still young enough to remember Julio. His big fight was a unification with another Mexican with the same last name first name Juan, But "The Bull" broke through Julio's pesky jab and put him away by way of a late TKO.

I've asked around down there if Julio has ever made a return visit to Paredones or Jiquilpan and I get a shrug of the shoulders.Can't say that I blame him.He was only a nino chiquito when the family said "adios." I just got back from there the other day.Poverty doesn't offer much charm not to mention opportunity especially if you want to make it bigtime as a fighter.

My wife Maria in Paredones on the left standing with her cousin Lupe who is three years younger than my wife.It's a hard life any way you slice it when you're poor.

[dagosd2000]

Roger & Chuck:

Who would have won a match between Carlos Palomino and Pipino Cuevas? Let's assume they fought in the 1978 to 1979 period, when they were at their peaks.

Also, if you have any insider information, or any anecdotes about how these guys thought about each other in the late 1970s, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Joe
I'm not into the mythical matchups so I won't put in my 2 cents with that. Besides,I'm afraid someone would comeback and call me an idiot and eventually a fag.That's what those mythical matchups wind up being-a pissing contest.

To address your second query:these were two nice guys who weren't into trash talking.Carlos being a Chicano was not that popular in Mexico. But Cuevas,the national, was at one time a living legend.They wrote songs about him(Pipino Es Mi Campeon).He was stoic in public and that's what Mexicans wanted with their champions unlike the flashy Puerto Ricans..He was considered indestructible.They say he was involved in a car accident when his head cracked against the windshield(They say he was going at 50 miles per hour when his head struck the glass ) and he just brushed himself off and walked away like it was nothing.

When Tommy Hearns destroyed him it was a shock for the aficianados. Cuevas never recovered emotionally from that fight, and when Roberto Duran flattened him his legacy did a one eighty.I saw his last fight at the Municipal Auditorium in Tijuana when Lupe Aquino knocked him out in two frames.Cuevas looked fat and sick and that he was on something. It was a disgrace.The guy the aficianados were cheering a decade earlier were throwing trash at him at the end.


Carlos Palomino.One of boxing's nice guys.


Me sweating all over Carlos at The World Boxing Hall Of Fame banquet.

[Chuck1052]

Roger & Chuck:

Who would have won a match between Carlos Palomino and Pipino Cuevas? Let's assume they fought in the 1978 to 1979 period, when they were at their peaks.

Also, if you have any insider information, or any anecdotes about how these guys thought about each other in the late 1970s, I'd be interested in hearing it.

I would pick Carlos Palomino to win in a bout with Pipino Cuevas. In addition to being very durable, Palomino had far more skill than Cuevas, who was relatively crude and easy to hit. Palomino also fought much formidable opposition and seemed to find a way to win at his best. Cuevas fought carefully selected opponents before being cruelly exposed in the bout with cruelly exposed when fighting the likes of Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran.

- Chuck Johnston

[scartissue]

Roger & Chuck:

Who would have won a match between Carlos Palomino and Pipino Cuevas? Let's assume they fought in the 1978 to 1979 period, when they were at their peaks.

Also, if you have any insider information, or any anecdotes about how these guys thought about each other in the late 1970s, I'd be interested in hearing it.

I would pick Carlos Palomino to win in a bout with Pipino Cuevas. In addition to being very durable, Palomino had far more skill than Cuevas, who was relatively crude and easy to hit. Palomino also fought much formidable opposition and seemed to find a way to win at his best. Cuevas fought carefully selected opponents before being cruelly exposed in the bout with cruelly exposed when fighting the likes of Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck, with all due respect, I always felt it was the other way around. I loved both fighters but always felt that it was Cuevas fighting the top dogs and Palomino fighting the selected opponents. Cuevas defended against Angel Espada (twice), Clyde Gray, Pete Ranzany, Harold Weston, even a rejuvenated 35 year old Billy Backus was better than some of the guys Carlos was defending against. I mean, outside of Muniz and Green, how was he allowed to defend against no-hopers like Mimoun Mohauter, Everaldo Azevedo, one-hit wonder Jose Palacios and how many title shots was Ryu Sorimachi going to get? I still remember the dissection job 36 year old Eddie Perkins did on him in '74. Suffice to say, i think it would have been a terrific fight between Palomino and Cuevas and we as fans were deprived of it.

[dagosd2000]

Roger & Chuck:

Who would have won a match between Carlos Palomino and Pipino Cuevas? Let's assume they fought in the 1978 to 1979 period, when they were at their peaks.

Also, if you have any insider information, or any anecdotes about how these guys thought about each other in the late 1970s, I'd be interested in hearing it.

I would pick Carlos Palomino to win in a bout with Pipino Cuevas. In addition to being very durable, Palomino had far more skill than Cuevas, who was relatively crude and easy to hit. Palomino also fought much formidable opposition and seemed to find a way to win at his best. Cuevas fought carefully selected opponents before being cruelly exposed in the bout with cruelly exposed when fighting the likes of Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck, with all due respect, I always felt it was the other way around. I loved both fighters but always felt that it was Cuevas fighting the top dogs and Palomino fighting the selected opponents. Cuevas defended against Angel Espada (twice), Clyde Gray, Pete Ranzany, Harold Weston, even a rejuvenated 35 year old Billy Backus was better than some of the guys Carlos was defending against. I mean, outside of Muniz and Green, how was he allowed to defend against no-hopers like Mimoun Mohauter, Everaldo Azevedo, one-hit wonder Jose Palacios and how many title shots was Ryu Sorimachi going to get? I still remember the dissection job 36 year old Eddie Perkins did on him in '74. Suffice to say, i think it would have been a terrific fight between Palomino and Cuevas and we as fans were deprived of it.

One fighter that Cuevas and Palomino had in common was a still hot Roberto Duran. Cuevas having a rep(before he fought Hearns) of a macho man manhandler was swept aside by a very determined Duran.I remember the pre fight mantra:"Somebody's Gonna' Fall".TIMBER Pipino.

Palomino on the other hand didn't want to piss off Duran by trying to match his aggressiveness. It was something that a lot of fighters in the ring understand-I won't try to win if you ease off a little and don't try to knock me out..Palomino wanted no part of Roberto in the Garden that night.He'd even give Roberto a little love tap after the bell rang ending the round.Duran knew that Carlos didn't have his heart in it so he backed off though winning very comfortably.


Roberto Duran

[dagosd2000]

There's A Change A Comin'

Jaime Munguia is being trained by Erik Morales in Tijuana at the Alto Boxing Club located in the central part of the city.The instruction has been going on since 2019 and the results of the former champ's teachings are becoming evident in Munguia's recent bouts.The gym opens during the day for the ilk that just want to sweat off a ferw pounds.Then the doors close at 2 in the afternoon and then reopen at 5 pm.That's when the pros enter.

The undefeated kid from TJ is showing more skills-better head movement,sharper punching,rolling with the punches and then digging to the body;all benefitting from Morales' experience in the ring and now being passed along to the 25 year old.

For Morales also it's a learning process is its initial stages.He's a young trainer(42 years old) and now he's got a hot prospect.

The Alto Gym is a fancy joint unlike Morales' old gym that's still open on the westside of the city in the Zona Norte. But like anything else time gives way to the present and the Alto Gym is as a state of the art facility as any fighter could find.

Of course the talk is now regarding a showdown some day with Canelo Alvarez. It's a year or so away.Munguia hasn't reached the level where he could give Saul a hard time yet. But if Morales can keep his charge focused the fight will eventually happen. Of course it will be in Las Vegas or LA

By that time Jaime will have the knowledge.The big obstacle will be can he handle the pressure of the biggest fight of his life.Alvarez has been there..But then again upsets have happened before and they will happen again.


Jaime Munguia being schooled by his trainer Erik Morales

[dagosd2000]

The Champion At The End Of The Bar

I see the thread "100 Greatest Fighters" has landed on Manual Ortiz,the bantamweight champion from the desert town of Corona,Ca. He was a field worker who was taking in the Saturday night fights one Saturday night at the compound ice house enjoying some beers after doing stoop labor all week with a short handled hoe.One of the prelim fighters didn't show up so Ortiz's companeros coaxed the buzzed lettuce picker to get up into the ring and try his luck. I guess Manny never backed down from a fight so he obliged his friends.Turned out Ortiz won the fight and then the rest is history.But I'm only making it a long story into a short one by saying that. What I want to share is something I ran by you guys before.Here goes again.

I used to like going to the bars in downtown San Diego in the late 60's early 70's.It was during the Vietnam War and the place was buzzing with activity.Just about all the bars catered to the sailors who made port and were greeted at the doors by the "Dragon Ladies" who knew which ships were inside the harbor by reading the latest news in the morning papers.The sailors were horny bastards and they thought they had the upper hand and as long as they were putting their money on the bar stand and inside the padded bras the girls treated them like admirals.But also there were customers of the local ilk , most living in the flea bag hotels in the area, who would drop into these Twilight Zone honky tonks with the neon lights.pinball machines yakking,and the pool tables filled with suckers all swabbies in their civvies.

I was a regular in this neighborhood of swingin' doors and slant eyed whores because because all I wanted to do is have fun and those bars were the Land Of Oz for me.Tne joint that I frequented was called "The Orient." It was owned by my neighbior,a Japenese guy everyone called "Old Man Tak" ,who was interned in one of those camps during WW 2.Well his son was my age and we used to pal around together getting drunk ,playing stud poker in the cardrooms,and hitting on the Dragon Ladies.The Korean girls would squat behind the bar eating the KImchi that their sailor boyfriends would bring them,the pungent odor wafting with the smells of cigarette smoke and stale beer.His son would hustle the swabbies into playing eight ball and it was fun to watch him take what money was left in their billfolds.Now I'll get to Manny Ortiz.

I used to see this old guy come into The Orient from time to time and sit at the end of the bar by the door.I figured him for one of the locals and the girls would make a fuss around him. He was a disheveled sort with a full crop of iron flecked hair and clothes with rips showing at the seam lines. He always needed a shave and probably a lot of soap and water but that didn't seem to matter with him nor the girls.

Then one night it hit me.This guy ,who I put together as being Mexican, started looking familiar. He had a fighters pan and was a little guy and so I began adding things up.One night he came in and took his usual barstool and the girls were there to wait on him with a shot glass of whiskey.Afrer he downed it he left so I approached one of the girls and asked one who the guy was.,.


"Oh,that's Charley ,"she said. "He's a nice guy.He always buys us a drink."
"Is Charley his real name?"I asked.
"I don't think so.He says he used to be a fighter.We all call him Charley."

I let it go but then the owner ,Old Man Tak,came over to ask how things were going and i asked him about the old guy.
"That's Manual Ortiz.He used to be the bantamweight champion."
Now everything fell into place.I made up my mind that the next time he dropped in for a bracer I'd elbow the girls out of the way and get to srike up a conversation.But it never happened.I never saw him again.I asked around but nobody had any news about the guy.

Then one morning I was scanning the morning sports page and on the back page was a little one paragraph article that read something like this-

"Manual Ortiz,the former bantamweight champion of the world born in Corona,California died yesterday at Naval Hospital from a long bout of cirrhosis of the liver."
End of story.

When I went back to The Orient and told the girls that Charley had died they began to cry. it didn't matter to them if he was champion of the world.Besides, they never knew that anyway.


Manual Ortiz

[elmersalsa]

The Champion At The End Of The Bar

I see the thread "100 Greatest Fighters" has landed on Manual Ortiz,the bantamweight champion from the desert town of Corona,Ca. He was a field worker who was taking in the Saturday night fights one Saturday night at the compound ice house enjoying some beers after doing stoop labor all week with a short handled hoe.One of the prelim fighters didn't show up so Ortiz's companeros coaxed the buzzed lettuce picker to get up into the ring and try his luck. I guess Manny never backed down from a fight so he obliged his friends.Turned out Ortiz won the fight and then the rest is history.But I'm only making it a long story into a short one by saying that. What I want to share is something I ran by you guys before.Here goes again.

I used to like going to the bars in downtown San Diego in the late 60's early 70's.It was during the Vietnam War and the place was buzzing with activity.Just about all the bars catered to the sailors who made port and were greeted at the doors by the "Dragon Ladies" who knew which ships were inside the harbor by reading the latest news in the morning papers.The sailors were horny bastards and they thought they had the upper hand and as long as they were putting their money on the bar stand and inside the padded bras the girls treated them like admirals.But also there were customers of the local ilk , most living in the flea bag hotels in the area, who would drop into these Twilight Zone honky tonks with the neon lights.pinball machines yakking,and the pool tables filled with suckers all swabbies in their civvies.

I was a regular in this neighborhood of swingin' doors and slant eyed whores because because all I wanted to do is have fun and those bars were the Land Of Oz for me.Tne joint that I frequented was called "The Orient." It was owned by my neighbior,a Japenese guy everyone called "Old Man Tak" ,who was interned in one of those camps during WW 2.Well his son was my age and we used to pal around together getting drunk ,playing stud poker in the cardrooms,and hitting on the Dragon Ladies.The Korean girls would squat behind the bar eating the KImchi that their sailor boyfriends would bring them,the pungent odor wafting with the smells of cigarette smoke and stale beer.His son would hustle the swabbies into playing eight ball and it was fun to watch him take what money was left in their billfolds.Now I'll get to Manny Ortiz.

I used to see this old guy come into The Orient from time to time and sit at the end of the bar by the door.I figured him for one of the locals and the girls would make a fuss around him. He was a disheveled sort with a full crop of iron flecked hair and clothes with rips showing at the seam lines. He always needed a shave and probably a lot of soap and water but that didn't seem to matter with him nor the girls.

Then one night it hit me.This guy ,who I put together as being Mexican, started looking familiar. He had a fighters pan and was a little guy and so I began adding things up.One night he came in and took his usual barstool and the girls were there to wait on him with a shot glass of whiskey.Afrer he downed it he left so I approached one of the girls and asked one who the guy was.,.


"Oh,that's Charley ,"she said. "He's a nice guy.He always buys us a drink."
"Is Charley his real name?"I asked.
"I don't think so.He says he used to be a fighter.We all call him Charley."

I let it go but then the owner ,Old Man Tak,came over to ask how things were going and i asked him about the old guy.
"That's Manual Ortiz.He used to be the bantamweight champion."
Now everything fell into place.I made up my mind that the next time he dropped in for a bracer I'd elbow the girls out of the way and get to srike up a conversation.But it never happened.I never saw him again.I asked around but nobody had any news about the guy.

Then one morning I was scanning the morning sports page and on the back page was a little one paragraph article that read something like this-

"Manual Ortiz,the former bantamweight champion of the world born in Corona,California died yesterday at Naval Hospital from a long bout of cirrhosis of the liver."
End of story.

When I went back to The Orient and told the girls that Charley had died they began to cry. it didn't matter to them if he was champion of the world.Besides, they never knew that anyway.


Manual Ortiz

Great anecdote, dagosd2000! I really appreciated. Manuel Ortiz was a hell of a fighter! The ONLY MAN that really beat him in his total prime was the great Willie Pep. And that was after Manuel won 28 straight fights in the mid-1940s decade.

I am glad that someone in here had a story about this all-time pound per pound great. A terrific fighter he was!

To me, the best and greatest Chicano/Mexican-American fighter of all-time!

[elmersalsa]

No Recuerdos

I've been down here in my wife's hometown of Jiquilpan for the past week in a half.I talked to Rodolofo Gonzalez before I left that I was going down there.He asked me, like he always does when I go down there ,to ask around and see if the people still remember him when he fought in the bullring.Gato fought three times in Jiquilpan when he was just stsrting out as a fighter.His first fight was with a guy who was 29 years old.Gato was 16.That's how it is in Mexico.No one wants to fight amateur because you don't earn any pesos that way so you jump in there with both feet sink or swim.Gato knocked the guy out.

Gato won all his three fights in Jiquilpan. He's from Guadalara.His uncle was Jose Becerra.His cousin,Alacran Torres.Gato had some good teachers.He compiled a knockout streak of over 30 on his way to winning the WBC title from Chango Carmona.Gato always asks me if anyone still remembers him.
"I was a big hero down there you knowe,"says Gato.

I quit asking years ago if anyone in Jiquilpan remembers Rodolfo Gonzalez.I get blank looks and a shake of the head.But I tell Gato every time when I get back that they remember him. He is always very happy when he hears that.Then he'll tell me about the fights he had down there.He'll tell me about the time his uncle Jose Becerra knocked out Eder Jofre to win the bantamweight title and I say nothing.I'm glad he doesn't read anything on BoxRec anymore.

Jose Becerra never beat Eder Jofre

[dagosd2000]

No Recuerdos

I've been down here in my wife's hometown of Jiquilpan for the past week in a half.I talked to Rodolofo Gonzalez before I left that I was going down there.He asked me, like he always does when I go down there ,to ask around and see if the people still remember him when he fought in the bullring.Gato fought three times in Jiquilpan when he was just stsrting out as a fighter.His first fight was with a guy who was 29 years old.Gato was 16.That's how it is in Mexico.No one wants to fight amateur because you don't earn any pesos that way so you jump in there with both feet sink or swim.Gato knocked the guy out.

Gato won all his three fights in Jiquilpan. He's from Guadalara.His uncle was Jose Becerra.His cousin,Alacran Torres.Gato had some good teachers.He compiled a knockout streak of over 30 on his way to winning the WBC title from Chango Carmona.Gato always asks me if anyone still remembers him.
"I was a big hero down there you knowe,"says Gato.

I quit asking years ago if anyone in Jiquilpan remembers Rodolfo Gonzalez.I get blank looks and a shake of the head.But I tell Gato every time when I get back that they remember him. He is always very happy when he hears that.Then he'll tell me about the fights he had down there.He'll tell me about the time his uncle Jose Becerra knocked out Eder Jofre to win the bantamweight title and I say nothing.I'm glad he doesn't read anything on BoxRec anymore.

Jose Becerra never beat Eder Jofre

Thank you for the compliment on the Ortiz story.He should be mentioned more by boxing pundits.Too bad he wasn't around when Olivares,Herrera,Martinez,and Castillo were on top of their game fighting in LA.

When Rodolfo told me the first time that his uncle Joe Becerra had knocked out Eder Jofre to win the bantamweight title I corrected him but it seem to go over his head.He still says that his uncle beat Jofre but I just let it go.

[chrisjs1985]

I've little doubt that Manuel Ortiz is the #1 Mexican-American fighter in history. As good as Oscar was, he's way in the rear-view mirror. Ortiz is probably in the 2-3 boxers after Louis that has the most undisputed title defenses. He dominated his era and had a complete arsenal and skill set. Could box and could bang on the inside.

[dagosd2000]

I've little doubt that Manuel Ortiz is the #1 Mexican-American fighter in history. As good as Oscar was, he's way in the rear-view mirror. Ortiz is probably in the 2-3 boxers after Louis that has the most undisputed title defenses. He dominated his era and had a complete arsenal and skill set. Could box and could bang on the inside.

And a chin as good as it gets.Hi Chris.

[dagosd2000]

The Undefeated

It always gets me when they talk about Marciano and where he ranks.He was undefeated you know but that doesn't qualify him to be the best of all time amongst the big boys. Now we have Pretty Boy Floyd for the pundits to assess. Forget that undefeated stuff.You gotta' find something on him to kick him to the curb.That's where the pundits,the Steven A. Smiths of the boxing world, crawl out of the woodwork and with their "gift' of analyzing using Euclidean geometry, unique inherent perceptions,the occult,and just plain ol' bulls--t, they can knock these two guys off their pedestals like a tornado blowing through a matchstick factory.

The garden type argument is they didn't fight good enough guys. They fought in an era were all those victories were complied against weak sisters.For example if Rocky would have fought a prime Joe Louis the outcome would have been reversed.Or the standard-Ali would have danced circles around him. But boxing isn't a dance,it's a fight.Then there's the gripe that Marciano was too small. A cruiserweight by today's standards.Vlad would have stepped on him.

Now let's take a peek at Floyd. He never fought Hearns,Leonard,Duran,or Marvelous Marvin the pundits shout. Those guys would have showed him a thing or two. Go back farther and there's the old ace in the hole,Ray Robinson.Well, he could have beaten anybody.

But Ali lost fight and he's"The Greatest."The Four Kings were on the losing end a few times. It's the matter that Marciano and Mayweather are undefeated that there's a clique that's bent on telling the universe that they weren't all that they seemed.Just think of it.There are geniuses out there that are obsessed to diss the undefeated.But it boils down again to the mythical matchup and them wanting to show everybody how smart they are.That's it.They're want to be the "undefeated" pundit.

Unless you're a dago hanging out in the poolroom of some Little Italy,Marciano's record leaks water like a baby's wet diaper. As for Floyd, the brothas standing on some corner in South Central LA,he would have been handed his lunch by most likely a Carmen Basilio.

But that's what comes with going out as a fighter ,champion by the way,and not losing a match. I bet Michael Spinks is sure glad he lost to Tyson. There's his flaw staring everybody in the face.Or how about Harry Greb kicking Gene Tunney's ass?That must have taken a load off Tunney's shoulders.Those two never get a call for being P4P GOAT.

Frank Baltazar's son Bobby retried from boxing being 6 and zero.I'm sure there's a handful that can claim something like that.But that ain't worth the time.No you got to go to the top and then find something wrong ,especially with Marciano and Mayweather.. But remember you have to have that special gift to be an "undefeated" critic.


I think I'll spend my time finding fault with Floyd Mayweather-NOT.

[scartissue]

Rog, just heard that Gaspar Ortega passed away. I remember he and Maria always getting into deep discussion of the homeland. RIP.

[dagosd2000]

Rog, just heard that Gaspar Ortega passed away. I remember he and Maria always getting into deep discussion of the homeland. RIP.

Amigos.

I know he would have loved to have been a champion.He got a shot against a prime Emile Griffith but he didn't make it. Today,he'd have 3 or 4 belts easy. Very sad.As nice a guy as there ever was.Dan, thanks for filling me in.

[scartissue]

Rog, just heard that Gaspar Ortega passed away. I remember he and Maria always getting into deep discussion of the homeland. RIP.

Amigos.

I know he would have loved to have been a champion.He got a shot against a prime Emile Griffith but he didn't make it. Today,he'd have 3 or 4 belts easy. Very sad.As nice a guy as there ever was.Dan, thanks for filling me in.

Rog, don't even get me started on how many belts Ortega would have today. A perusal of his record shows he beat Tony DeMarco (twice), Benny (Kid) Paret (twice), Kid Gavilan, Isaac Logart (twice), Stan Harrington (twice), Charley Scott and Tombstone Smith (twice). And to compare eras, can you imagine telling the Crawfords and the Spences of today that between August of '61 and August of '64, that Ortega fought 84 times? That every tough match warranted a rematch? And that if you fought, it had better be a good, exciting fight or your not going to get a TV date? Or better yet, you won't even be asked back by the promoter. My God, I think the fighters of today would just clean out their lockers at the very thought.

[dagosd2000]

Rog, just heard that Gaspar Ortega passed away. I remember he and Maria always getting into deep discussion of the homeland. RIP.

Amigos.

I know he would have loved to have been a champion.He got a shot against a prime Emile Griffith but he didn't make it. Today,he'd have 3 or 4 belts easy. Very sad.As nice a guy as there ever was.Dan, thanks for filling me in.

Rog, don't even get me started on how many belts Ortega would have today. A perusal of his record shows he beat Tony DeMarco (twice), Benny (Kid) Paret (twice), Kid Gavilan, Isaac Logart (twice), Stan Harrington (twice), Charley Scott and Tombstone Smith (twice). And to compare eras, can you imagine telling the Crawfords and the Spences of today that between August of '61 and August of '64, that Ortega fought 84 times? That every tough match warranted a rematch? And that if you fought, it had better be a good, exciting fight or your not going to get a TV date? Or better yet, you won't even be asked back by the promoter. My God, I think the fighters of today would just clean out their lockers at the very thought.

Right on Dan.And to add he had over 200 fights and was only stopped twice.Griffith was legit,but Gaspar told me when he went over to Italy to fight Mazzinghi he thought they put something in his food that made him sick for the fight.And how many split decisions did he lose?And how many fights of the year?And through all that he didn't wind up punchy.


Gaspar Ortega

[chrisjs1985]

R.I.P to a true warrior. One of the most entertaining fighters of any era. As you both have said, today he'd win multiple titles and they'd call him the best thing since sliced bread.

[dagosd2000]

Long Ago And Far Away

After Gaspar Ortega lost in his bid to wrest the welterweight championship from Emile Griffith he was seen alive and well in numerous arenas south of the border.In the end, with over 200 fights under his belt, that was his only title shot. He deserved more.But after losing to Griffith it was Gaspar's intention of making ends meet rather than campaign for something greater and the thing he was still best at was prizefighting.It wasn't for a few more years that he was relegated to the "steppingstone" category.By that time Freddie Brown and Whitey Bimstein were in his rearview mirror.Nick Corby had handed the managerial tasks over to Ortega by then.There were no more "big" fights. When he fought Benvenuti in Spaghettiiland the glory days were over.He lost 9 out of his last 10 fights.

But before the bittersweet swansong Gaspar was back to fighting in the clamorous rickety smoke filled arenas in Mexico were he had honed his skills in the early 50's.I was sitting with him in the ,lobby of the Marriott Hotel during a World Boxing Hall Of Fame event when he told me of a time when he got a call from a promoter in Monterrey ,Mexico to get down there fast as he could to take on the local boy.The fight was to take place in two days.There was a 500 dollar guarantee to put in his kick.Hell, it was a last minute deal but Gaspar fought so often he didn't give it two thoughts.He'd hop on a Norte De Sonora bus in Tijuana(where he was living at the time)and in a day he'd be in Monterrey.

The promoter told him there would be someone there at the depot to meet him and get him squared away in a hotel. The fight was for the next night so Gaspar would be traveling light.The person who showed up to meet Ortega was a kid(according to Gaspar maybe in his mid teens).He was also assigned to fetch Gaspar his food and work his corner for the fight.Before bedtime Gaspar told the kid to bring him some food.The kid came back with some tacos and then left saying he'd come back in the morning.

Well, that night Gaspar told me he started heaving his guts out.All night he continued to throw up and he couldn't get any sleep. To add insult to injury the kid never showed up the next morning. Gaspar told me he was thinking of bailing out on the fight,but there would go the 500.He said he hailed a cab and made it to the arena feeling like s--t.He was by himself and climbed into the ring with some guy who he'd never seen before.Sitting on his stool before the opening bell Gaspar peered across the ring and low and behold there's the kid from the day before in his opponent's corner!

Well, Gaspar told me that he had enough left in him to finish off this local prospect by the 4th round but it was a struggle to say the least.Gaspar had won.The double cross didn't work. He didn't bother to stick around Monterrey any longer.He collected his money,went to the bus depot, and was on his way back to Tijuana.It goes to show you how 500 dollars sometimes is enough to push a man to his limits.



Emile Griffith,me,and Gaspar

[dagosd2000]

Broken Windows

"A few weeks ago I went to the Zona Norte to Benito Juarez Park and visited the gym they named after you,"I said to Gaspar Ortega as we were sitting in the banquet room inside the Marriott Hotel.it was the annual World boxing Hall Of Fame event.Unfortunately,it was to be the last one. They couldn't make ends meet anymore.You could sense that it was eventually going to happen.Gaspar was with his wife and Carlos Orftiz.They had flown in from New York.I was there with my better half,Maria.Gaspar and my wife shared stories of living in Tijuana. Both me and Carlos didn't interrupt.
"I was there 15 years ago when they invited me to for the opening.How is the gym doing?"asked Gaspar.
"It's in pretty bad shape. The park has been overrun by drug addicts.All the windows are broken and there's grafitti all over the walls.You can see all the used needles on the ground..Nobody hardly goes there anymore.The neighbiorhood is very dangerous."
Indio shook his head.
"I haven't been back since.I have no desire to go to Mexico anymore.My home is in New York now."
Carlos Ortiz joined in.
"Me and Gaspar went partners in a club in the city."
"But I sold my half to Carlos.I just want to take it easy now,"said Gaspar.

I could see the waiters come out from the kitchen holding platters of the usual chicken dinner and were placing them down in front of everyone.
"I remember seeing you once in Colonia Morelos,"I remarked to Gaspar."You had pulled up in the park driving a lemon yellow convertible with a blonde gringa sitting next to you.It was after the Griffith fight for the title.I was there with my dad getting haircuts for a quarter.There was a pretty big crowd gathered around."
"I was living in Morelos still,"said Gaspar smiling."Those were still fun times."
"You were buying everybody ice cream."
"Did I buy you one?he laughed.


We picked at our food.My wife didn't touch her chicken.
"I don't like it that way,"she said.
"Don't you have children living in Tijuana?"asked Gaspar.
"A daughter and five grandchildren.You have family there?"
No.They are all gone ."
"It's sad how the neighborhood around the park has gone bad.The thieves have broken all the street lights so you can't see anything at night.",I said. "The narcos and the police use the old cemetery to stash the bodies of the guys they want out of the way or have overdosed.They just leave then there on top of the ground..
"What do you think they'd do? Bury them?",laughed Carlos.
"No.I guess not,"I said sheepishly.

After the dinner they handed out the awards.Carlos and Gaspar had gotten theirs years ago.Sipping coffee I looked over to Gaspar. His wife was reminding him that she had an appointment for dialysis in the morning.
"I don't think I'll be going back to your gym anymore,"I said to Gaspar.
Gaspar was still talking to his wife.He didn't say anything to me.Then Carlos put his arms on the table.
"You know they don't make fighters anymore like they did in our day,"he said.
I looked at Gaspar.He was still talking to his wife.

My wife on the right sharing a fun talk with Gaspar's wife.

Carlos Ortiz