British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

stujones
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by stujones »

Ezzard wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 06:45 I can imagine Haye winning a tournament but he could also be stopped by AJ and Joyce. I imagine he'd be too cautious against AJ (as he was against Wlad). Joyce has everything to beat Haye. But Haye did crack Chisora's mostly solid chin.

At some level Haye was fully aware of his limitations in size at HW (a good thing). But it may limit his ambitions in the ring with these gents.
I know what you are saying, but AJ and Bruno stamina is awful - Haye would only need to keep away (as he did vs Klitchscko) for a few rounds and they would have slowed down so much themselves (not like Klitchscko) that they would be sitting ducks. Absolutely he could get banged out, but at the same time he could bang them out at any time and I think his superior stamina would be a major factor vs Bruno and AJ.

Joyce would be a longer fight, but Joyce is SO SLOW I just could see him eating jabs and counter shots all night until he might just eventually break, or lose on points.

Akinwande vs Haye now that's the one I think - mmm not sure on that one. Akinwande was so awkward.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by stujones »

bennie wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 06:47 John L. Gardner deserves a place in the top 10. The Londoner won British and European titles and was a typically superfit Terry Lawless fighter who lacked a big punch but who pressured opponents - round after round - until his pressure proved too much. Gardner 'broke' the likes of Ossie Ocasio, Paul Sykes, Billy Aird, Neville Meade and Greg Sorrentino and only needed to beat Jimmy Young at Wembley in 1979 to secure a shot at the world heavyweight title, but the fleshy Young, who never got over his defeat to Ken Norton, had enough left to win on points.
Gardner came back to win the European title with a knockout of the perennially fragile Lorenzo Zanon but was later the victim of a suicidal piece of matchmaking by his promoter Mickey Duff, who threw him in with an unbeaten Michael Dokes in the States but only Dokes, "Sailor" Ibar Arrington and Noel Quarless ever beat Gardner in 10 years as a pro. Arrington caught him cold in the first round; Quarless hammered a washed-up Gardner.
Bennie, what about Horace Notice - just a bit before my time but I can remember reading about him.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by polecateddy »

stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 10:59
dan28uk wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 05:52
stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 05:11 I'd have to have Haye at 1. Most of the other heavies had stamina issues and chins were not great. Joyce doesnt tick those boxes, but I think as time has passed people forget how much he was eating Dubois shots for Breakfast, lunch and dinner.
but haye had his stamina problems at times
Not really at Heavyweight - I think Haye's stamina problems were early in his career when he didn't train right - after Thompson he passed after stamina test, crucially carried power late in to fights vs Valuev and Ruiz and past stamina checks vs Fragomeni and Mormeck at cruiseright.
To be fair he came through well against Fragomeni, who really pushed him hard. I don’t think in all honesty Haye achieved a great deal at heavyweight. Valuev was a huge guy but absolutely on his last legs with joint issues, and never came close to ever fighting again. I wonder what state that guy is in these days? Granted the Chisora win was by far his best performance at the heavier weight, and it was a good win!
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by stujones »

polecateddy wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 11:06
stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 10:59
dan28uk wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 05:52

but haye had his stamina problems at times
Not really at Heavyweight - I think Haye's stamina problems were early in his career when he didn't train right - after Thompson he passed after stamina test, crucially carried power late in to fights vs Valuev and Ruiz and past stamina checks vs Fragomeni and Mormeck at cruiseright.
To be fair he came through well against Fragomeni, who really pushed him hard. I don’t think in all honesty Haye achieved a great deal at heavyweight. Valuev was a huge guy but absolutely on his last legs with joint issues, and never came close to ever fighting again. I wonder what state that guy is in these days? Granted the Chisora win was by far his best performance at the heavier weight, and it was a good win!
Agree, but as I said I didn't want to make it about achievement etc. You cannot dispute that Dillian Whyte now has achievement more than Danny Williams - scored some solid genuine top 10 wins, albeit in a shit time of the division. However, I do believe Danny Williams in his absolute peak would have beaten a peak Dillian Whyte (yes I might be in the minority here).

You might even argue that Dillian Whyte has achieved more than David Haye (at heavyweight) but there is no way I'd say Whyte beats Haye heavyweight prime vs heavyweight prime, you only have to look at their two performances vs Chisora (and Haye fought a better Chisora IMO).
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by dan28uk »

stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 10:59
dan28uk wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 05:52
stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 05:11 I'd have to have Haye at 1. Most of the other heavies had stamina issues and chins were not great. Joyce doesnt tick those boxes, but I think as time has passed people forget how much he was eating Dubois shots for Breakfast, lunch and dinner.g
but haye had his stamina problems at times
Not really at Heavyweight - I think Haye's stamina problems were early in his career when he didn't train right - after Thompson he passed after stamina test, crucially carried power late in to fights vs Valuev and Ruiz and past stamina checks vs Fragomeni and Mormeck at cruiseright.
yeah agree was more at crusierweight i think when he switched diets and training was a lot better , in the valuev fight to be fair he didn't have to throw too much and didn't take anything john ruiz was made for him
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by stujones »

dan28uk wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 11:26
stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 10:59
dan28uk wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 05:52

but haye had his stamina problems at times
Not really at Heavyweight - I think Haye's stamina problems were early in his career when he didn't train right - after Thompson he passed after stamina test, crucially carried power late in to fights vs Valuev and Ruiz and past stamina checks vs Fragomeni and Mormeck at cruiseright.
yeah agree was more at crusierweight i think when he switched diets and training was a lot better , in the valuev fight to be fair he didn't have to throw too much and didn't take anything john ruiz was made for him
Good points, I think though the way AJ and Bruno fade - it wouldn't take a Wayne McCullough style fighter to wear them out - Usyk didn't throw many, Bruno faded in the mid rounds of fights he was dictating the pace, in a fight where he was not dictating the pace (Tyson) - he was actually spent by the end of the 3rd round. It was brave yes, but I think its one of those many fights in which the passage of time has favoured a fighter.

The John Ruiz fight is why I would favour him vis Joyce. I see similarity in speed, although both Ruiz and Chisora are significantly smaller than Joyce which might pose a question.

I think while Whyte would also bring some power, I'd see him to slow, to open and to vulnerable. I'd see something similar to the Chisora vs Haye fight.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by dan28uk »

stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 11:48
dan28uk wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 11:26
stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 10:59

Not really at Heavyweight - I think Haye's stamina problems were early in his career when he didn't train right - after Thompson he passed after stamina test, crucially carried power late in to fights vs Valuev and Ruiz and past stamina checks vs Fragomeni and Mormeck at cruiseright.
yeah agree was more at crusierweight i think when he switched diets and training was a lot better , in the valuev fight to be fair he didn't have to throw too much and didn't take anything john ruiz was made for him
Good points, I think though the way AJ and Bruno fade - it wouldn't take a Wayne McCullough style fighter to wear them out - Usyk didn't throw many, Bruno faded in the mid rounds of fights he was dictating the pace, in a fight where he was not dictating the pace (Tyson) - he was actually spent by the end of the 3rd round. It was brave yes, but I think its one of those many fights in which the passage of time has favoured a fighter.

The John Ruiz fight is why I would favour him vis Joyce. I see similarity in speed, although both Ruiz and Chisora are significantly smaller than Joyce which might pose a question.

I think while Whyte would also bring some power, I'd see him to slow, to open and to vulnerable. I'd see something similar to the Chisora vs Haye fight.
the haye that fought chisora would have been a nightmare for whyte , i think whyte could of been similar fight to the chisora one , can see whyte definitely walking onto haye's shots, i think joyce's style could be tougher for fury than usyk and haye
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by jameswilson »

Thing with Joyce is every chin in the end gets cracked if it keeps getting hit. Joyce was taking flush ones over and over against Takam. Had that been Haye I don’t think it would have been pretty.

Hayes hands down loose style I think would have been able to evade Joyce’s slow but relentless style as well.

I have Haye ahead of Joyce personally but that may change as Joyce’s career goes on.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by margaret thatcher »

bennie wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 06:47 John L. Gardner deserves a place in the top 10. The Londoner won British and European titles and was a typically superfit Terry Lawless fighter who lacked a big punch but who pressured opponents - round after round - until his pressure proved too much. Gardner 'broke' the likes of Ossie Ocasio, Paul Sykes, Billy Aird, Neville Meade and Greg Sorrentino and only needed to beat Jimmy Young at Wembley in 1979 to secure a shot at the world heavyweight title, but the fleshy Young, who never got over his defeat to Ken Norton, had enough left to win on points.
Gardner came back to win the European title with a knockout of the perennially fragile Lorenzo Zanon but was later the victim of a suicidal piece of matchmaking by his promoter Mickey Duff, who threw him in with an unbeaten Michael Dokes in the States but only Dokes, "Sailor" Ibar Arrington and Noel Quarless ever beat Gardner in 10 years as a pro. Arrington caught him cold in the first round; Quarless hammered a washed-up Gardner.
Gotta disagree here bennie my man, gardner was game as f@ck but i dont think he had the tools to crack the top 10 over the last 40
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by Coco »

Id fancy Chisora against Gardner
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by knockout »

jameswilson wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 12:03 Thing with Joyce is every chin in the end gets cracked if it keeps getting hit. Joyce was taking flush ones over and over against Takam. Had that been Haye I don’t think it would have been pretty.

Hayes hands down loose style I think would have been able to evade Joyce’s slow but relentless style as well.

I have Haye ahead of Joyce personally but that may change as Joyce’s career goes on.
Joyce can be dropped as his amateur fight against Kuzmin showed, also badly hurt vs Hamza Beguerni and stopped on his feet.

He has however developed his defence and Dubois with his relative lack of imagination didn’t really catch him clean.

Prime Haye (and Hide for that matter) had the tools to catch people when they didn’t expect it - hence causing damage .

Dubois and Takam were fairly predictable in their punch selection vs Joyce
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by margaret thatcher »

Coco wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 18:03 Id fancy Chisora against Gardner
#metoo
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by bennie »

stujones wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 11:05
bennie wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 06:47 John L. Gardner deserves a place in the top 10. The Londoner won British and European titles and was a typically superfit Terry Lawless fighter who lacked a big punch but who pressured opponents - round after round - until his pressure proved too much. Gardner 'broke' the likes of Ossie Ocasio, Paul Sykes, Billy Aird, Neville Meade and Greg Sorrentino and only needed to beat Jimmy Young at Wembley in 1979 to secure a shot at the world heavyweight title, but the fleshy Young, who never got over his defeat to Ken Norton, had enough left to win on points.
Gardner came back to win the European title with a knockout of the perennially fragile Lorenzo Zanon but was later the victim of a suicidal piece of matchmaking by his promoter Mickey Duff, who threw him in with an unbeaten Michael Dokes in the States but only Dokes, "Sailor" Ibar Arrington and Noel Quarless ever beat Gardner in 10 years as a pro. Arrington caught him cold in the first round; Quarless hammered a washed-up Gardner.
Bennie, what about Horace Notice - just a bit before my time but I can remember reading about him.

Good fighter Notice who never lost a pro fight (and lost only one as an amateur). The Midlander didn't take up boxing until he was 21 but reached the ABA heavyweight final at Wembley in 1982 after a handful of bouts and was stopped in the first round by Harold Hylton, although the ring did Notice (and others) no favours on the night. The ring lacked an apron and many fighters, backed to the ropes, lost their footing and slipped down. Some referees then counted. Notice was floored early by Hylton, got up too soon and was under pressure but slipped by the ropes and the referee waved it off. It was never a knockdown, a bad stoppage.
Understandably, Notice seethed at his defeat and waited 12 long months for a second go at Hylton (again in an ABA final) and this time blasted the Gloucester man to first-round defeat with a big left hook. It was a horrible knockout (in 10-ounce gloves) and the sight of the doctor racing across the ring to help the stricken Hylton is etched in the memory. Notice had arrived. (Amazingly, Hylton made a comeback a few years later and smashed Repton's Bobby Parkes in the first round in the 1987 ABA heavyweight final, which showed great character.)
Notice represented a Great Britain team against America a couple of months later in London and was the only British winner on the night, destroying Tim Fryerson of Indianapolis in the opening round. (Paul Banke was one of the American fighters.) He then made the bizarre decision to turn pro just a year away from the Olympics and scored a good early win over Frenchman Anaclet Wamba in a hard eight-rounder at the Albert Hall (points) and later picked up British and Commonwealth heavyweight titles, which he retained a few times.
A detached retina ended his promising career at 16-0 (12) and that was that, which is a shame because Notice had proved his mettle at championship level and was surely in line for a European title shot and some lucrative paydays. The last time I saw him in the flesh was in late 1989 when he was introduced into the ring at the Elephant and Castle Leisure Centre just before Duke McKenzie's dreary 10-rounder with an American by the name of David Moreno. Notice got a good hand, walked over to McKenzie's corner and was completely ignored by Duke, who was having his first fight at bantamweight and looked a bag of nerves. Notice then completely ignored Moreno in the other corner by leaving the ring. He popped up on TV a couple of years later when a riot broke out in the fight between Derek Williams and French pikey Jean-Maurice Chanet in France. Notice, who was in Williams' corner, rather stupidly stood on the ring apron amid the riot and was bombarded by chairs. Oh well, at least the ring had an apron.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by polecateddy »

Julius Francis on his pre-Tyson purple patch, could have a shout of outpointing Chisora and maybe Whyte too if they were having an off-night.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by dan28uk »

polecateddy wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 08:42 Julius Francis on his pre-Tyson purple patch, could have a shout of outpointing Chisora and maybe Whyte too if they were having an off-night.
maybe in chisora's worst night he gives him a push , i think chisora and whyte would both stop him quite comfortably
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by jamesmcdonnell »

stujones wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 15:41
GreenLightning wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 15:34 Is the best Danny Williams say the one who wiped out Kali Meehan in about ten seconds?? I didn't catch much of Williams mid 2000s
Yes, I would say the best Danny Williams was the one between the Francis defeat and the Sam fight - he was never quite the same for me after Sam - although didn't have a bad run post Sam - Tyson (he was robbed vs Sprott - a terrible decision). Definitely post Tyson he was never the same - one decent showing vs Gammar aside.
He apparently contracted shingles into the run in to the Sam fight, and it took a long time for him to recover fully. I remember either reading about it, or talking to someone connected with him, don't remember which.

Although Tyson was pretty shot by then, he was still dangerous for a couple of rounds, and he landed a hell of a lot of shots on Williams, shots that had put Danny over in the past, and he seemed to just absorb them all - whatever punch resistance he had seemed to go after that night.

His fight with Vitali was very sad, he looked badly damaged, and the minute Vitali landed anything vaguely significant he was down.

That he carried on for so many years afterward, is a testament to how badly regulated the sport is.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by stujones »

The Sam fight was odd and showed a vulnerability in Williams that we had never seen before. I think lots of people thought the shingles thing was a bit of an excuse - he didn't really need to fight Sam was on a good run of form and was seemingly on the cusp of a major "world" fight. I can remember Williams being up and down like a yo-yo - it was just an odd event. But Sam was a very underated boxer - not the quickest, not the most disciplined but a true fighting man. Reminds me a bit of Andy Ruiz Jnr (but I think better than him). Sam certainly messed with Williams' head as he had the then fascination that he was better heavy - yes he joked about Mister Kipling but I think he trained wrong also - he never had a massive gut, just bulked up.

However, I honestly think Williams at his absolute best (which is hard to find cos of his inconsistencies) beats the current crop of UK heavyweights excluding the top 2. and Joe Joyce. Williams had true KO punching power and when he had his weight right and he was also right in the head and chin (cos he had fights in which he looked like he had a cast iron chin also) he was pretty damn good.

That would be an interesting one prime for prime - Matt Skelton vs Joe Joyce - slow, good engines, good chins.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by polecateddy »

I’m not totally convinced Danny Williams really what it took to go beyond British level. A bit like Neville Brown, he was decent at that level and nothing more. Skelton was a bit of powder puff puncher, whereas Joyce has a much more effective wear you down game in my opinion.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by dan28uk »

mercman wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 11:28 Joyce overpowers Skelton, maybe 6 or 7 rounds.
i think he beats him on points
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by MasterG »

I would have put Michael Murray in this list if he had had the desire to win. Murray very underrated boxer because of his record. Without looking through his record had 2 decent wins which showed his potential, a win against Francis and a bloody good win against Marcus Bott.

Michael was a tough boxer not many stopped him in his losses but he simply didn't have the desire to be a boxer. I'm sure if he had had the love of the sport and did himself justice in the gym he would have no doubt made a British champion.

Certainly in my book the only boxer I can name that under achieved because he didn't like boxing.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by mickey1975 »

It's a boxrec in-joke. Martin has to appear on any list.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by DrDuke »

1. Lewis
2. Fury
3. Joshua
4. Bruno
5. Haye
6. Whyte
7. Joyce (will surpass someone soon probably)
8. Chisora
9. Akinwande
10. Mason
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by mickey1975 »

Akinwande would beat Del.
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by polecateddy »

DrDuke wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 15:34 1. Lewis
2. Fury
3. Joshua
4. Bruno
5. Haye
6. Whyte
7. Joyce (will surpass someone soon probably)
8. Chisora
9. Akinwande
10. Mason
Bruno must be too high. I’d think a high pressure approach would have cracked him in the championship rounds.

1. Lewis
2. Joshua
3. Fury
4. Akinwande
5. Joyce
6. Haye
7. Mason
8. Bruno
9. Hide
10. Whyte
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Re: British Heavyweights of the last 40 years - who wins and a top 10.

Post by stujones »

polecateddy wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 11:24 I’m not totally convinced Danny Williams really what it took to go beyond British level. A bit like Neville Brown, he was decent at that level and nothing more. Skelton was a bit of powder puff puncher, whereas Joyce has a much more effective wear you down game in my opinion.
He was an enigma Williams - and I championed him on another forum for years - got a bit of a "moment" when he did Tyson as it was mainly an American forum and alot of the posters on heard of him through me, even though I had long given up on him by 2004.

But yes, talent was there but something was missing. In saying that - I'm not sure Whyte is beyond British level in any other era than this one. He's not really beaten anyone who is PROVEN - Parker held a belt, but then so did Ray Mercer - who did Parker beat who was PROVEN, Same with Rivas - and he had a life and death struggle (twice and lost more rounds than he won) vs a guy who a better version of was walloped by Haye. Yes I know Povetkin was proven, but lets not call the last Povetkin fight a good win, that was horrible to watch.

Would an absolute pomp Danny Williams beaten the aging version of Chisora who gave a prime Whyte hell - yeah I think he would have (it would have been interesting and I could see an argument both ways.
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