Out Of Sight Out Of Mind
Since the Covid outbreak there hasn't been a boxing card in San Diego .Even before that you could count the number of cards in San Diego on one hand.Most of the fighters were essentially prelimers. A main event would often be an 8 round fight. The main guy who put on the shows was Bobby DiFilippis. He went back a long way.I remember him handling James Kinchen in the 80's.I can't remember Bobby D (that was his nickname) staging anything at the biggest arena in town,The San Diego Sports Arena,but stayed with the smaller locales like the banquet rooms of the big hotels and, one his favorites, the roller skating rink on University Avenue in North Park With that said there were other fights in town that were what you'd call "sub rosa."
You can say that they were illegal,against the law;basically they were not sanctioned by the state of California Boxing Commission.There was no weigh ins.No Commission doctors.Nobody connected with any state athletic authority being involved.
These underground fights were put together by boxing gyms,run of the mill gin joints,and in the back yards of people's houses.I'll level with ya'.these"sub rosa" fights were steered along by the Mexican community in the South Bay area- National City,Chula Vista,and Imperial Beach. It kind of correlated with the dog fighting that was in vogue and had its sordid fan base.
I guess these fly by night promoters of these spectacles didn't want to hassle with the legalities-the pedestrian paperwork,the fees and licensing, and all the other "I's" that needed to be dotted and the "t's" that had to be crossed. It was kind of an analogy of Mexico.Why do it the legal way when you take the shortcut by pulling a fast one.As long as you don't get caught is all that matters.
Well, one time I became a participant in one of these "sub rosa" extravaganzas. There used to be a bar in National City called The Club 21.It had a boxing ring in the middle of the bar. Most of the clientele were sailors stationed at the 32nd Street Naval Base. and most of those guys were Filipinos.It was a time if a Filipino wanted to become an American citizen he joined the U.S. Navy.
Anyway, I got roped into fighting some sailor(not a Filipino)on a Saturday night. There were no formalities,Just put on your trunks,lace up your gloves,and get in there.I was looking across the ring at this big toe head with milk white skin who looked like he was just off the farm. I didn't have a clue if he could fight or not. I had around 20 pounds on the guy so when the bell rang I rushed him and clubbed him into quitting before I could run out of breath.I retired after that undefeated.
One morning,shortly after my fight at the Club 21, I was scanning the morning paper and read that the sheriffs had raided a gym in Imperial Beach that was staging one of thoee "sub rosa" fights.It didn't seem like earth shattering news. I never volunteered my services like that again and I never heard anymore of any underground fights. But then again wasn't all ears.
A flyer from the Club 21.Not exactly Madison Square Garden
Classic American West Coast Boxing
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dagosd2000
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geoffreysadao
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Looks very glamorous.
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The place did have legit fights.In fact Rick Farris,head of the West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame, fought there once.
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geoffreysadao
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I think lot of those venues had both legitimate fights and "smokers." Back in Summer of '81, I attended an event of amateur boxing that was "under the radar." In one of the fights, a guy ready to start his work shift a couple of hours later stepped in with a legit local amateur heavyweight. He was Ko'd quickly, got dressed and rode off on his motorcycle to work.
With the exception of San Jose, which is in the South Bay Area, boxing in the S.F. Bay Area was somewhat in decline in the early 1980's. By Spring of '81, there were no gyms open in the East Bay (Richmond, Oakland and Berkeley). Newman's Gym in the Tenderloin in S.F. was one option. There may have been an underground scene of fighting that I wasn't aware of.
Do you remember an LA middleweight named Henry Walker? He turned pro in the late 60's. By the early 80's, he was pretty shopworn, but he was still dangerous. Erwin Williams had just won the California Middleweight Title by stopping James Waire. Williams was on a roll having beaten Waire, Jeff Morgan and Felton Marshall. He takes on Walker at the Oakland Auditorium. For the first few rounds, he dominates Walker as he appears too young and fast for him. Around the 4th round, Williams "appears" to hurt Walker who feigns being hurt and staggers. As Williams tries to move in for the kill, Walker counters him and knocks him out. That pretty much ended Williams' career. A couple of years later, Williams fought James "The Heat" Kinchen and actually troubled him. It was kind of remarkable that Walker was able to beat younger fighters like Robby Epps, Erwin Williams and Bert Lee towards the end of his career.
With the exception of San Jose, which is in the South Bay Area, boxing in the S.F. Bay Area was somewhat in decline in the early 1980's. By Spring of '81, there were no gyms open in the East Bay (Richmond, Oakland and Berkeley). Newman's Gym in the Tenderloin in S.F. was one option. There may have been an underground scene of fighting that I wasn't aware of.
Do you remember an LA middleweight named Henry Walker? He turned pro in the late 60's. By the early 80's, he was pretty shopworn, but he was still dangerous. Erwin Williams had just won the California Middleweight Title by stopping James Waire. Williams was on a roll having beaten Waire, Jeff Morgan and Felton Marshall. He takes on Walker at the Oakland Auditorium. For the first few rounds, he dominates Walker as he appears too young and fast for him. Around the 4th round, Williams "appears" to hurt Walker who feigns being hurt and staggers. As Williams tries to move in for the kill, Walker counters him and knocks him out. That pretty much ended Williams' career. A couple of years later, Williams fought James "The Heat" Kinchen and actually troubled him. It was kind of remarkable that Walker was able to beat younger fighters like Robby Epps, Erwin Williams and Bert Lee towards the end of his career.
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
It Was A Fix
I see there's a thread asking if the Gans/McGovern fight in Chicago was on the level.If you watch the fight on YouTube it's almost unbelievable how a fighter like the great lightweight Gans ,who went 42 rounds with Battling Nelson and was in the stages of TB, was blown away by a featherweight,though a pretty tough one,like Terry McGovern in 2 rounds.The fight was shrouded with doubt.The smart money guys in the Windy City raked over the bookies.After that there wasn't a big fight in Chicago for 20 years.
I was a little kid living in the Southwest Side of Chicago,the Little Italy section they called "the Patch", when one Sunday afternoon my father said that we were invited for a Sunday dinner of pasta at his "boss's house.I wasn't that young that I didn't know who his "boss" was-Sam Giancana the Chicago Don (along with Tony Accardo) of the Chicago Outfit. Since me and my sisters and my mother were told to go play with "Mooney's" children ("Mooney" was Giancana's nickname because at the drop of a hat he'd could go raving mad like a lunatic)it was accepted as standard procedure.The men in the parlor.The women in the kitchen.The kids playing. But I always was looking for a place to eavesdrop on what the males had to say. That afternoon they were discussing ,amongst other things,how they had their fingers in the fight game, not only in Chicago,but aside from the east coast, the entire mid west.
Someone brought up the Gans/McGovern fight and how it was a set up. But they also said that the Italian mustache Petes didn't have a hand in it,It was the Jewish mafia,under the direction of Arnold Rothstein,who put the thing together. It was also Rothstein who was the major player fixing the 1919 "Black Sox" World Series scandal.(Rothstein bought off the judge and jury for that one getting "Not guilty verdicts."That night everyone celebrated at my my grandfather's nightclub,The Bella Napoli on Halsted Street. But the celebrating ended when the new commissioner of baseball , Kennesaw Landis, banished the team from baseball with the exception of Eddie Collins who wasn't in on the fix)
The Wise Guys had nothing but nice things to say about Rothstein. He set a "good" example on how to make fighting an even dirtier racket.
I remember when my father left Chicago.My mother wanted him to break away from those guys.They were either winding up getting whacked or spending the rest of their lives in jail. But my father was always on the phone with them just about everyday.Sometimes they'd come out to San Diego on some kind of business and make sure they made a stop at our house. I remember Paul Ricca (who ran things before Giancana ).There was Frankie LaPorte. And the colorful Jackie"The Lackey" Cerone.All those guys got their starts including Giancana,Accardo, and even Capone working for my grandfather "Diamond Joe" Esposito in The Patch.That's how my father became "connected."
After those guys would leave the FBI would come knocking on the door. My father became friends with the Special Agent in Charge of San Diego,Jack Armstrong.They'd go to lunch and Armstrong would sit back and listen about stories of Al Capone and how my father lived with Capone after my grandfather was gunned down outside his house.I wonder if my old man ever told him about how The Outfit controlled the fight game in Chicago?
My grandfather's epitaph
"Diamond Joe's" funeral. It was bigger than O'Bannion's.
My grandfather feeding the street urchins from Jane Addam's Hull House(that was across the street)at his Bella Naploli
I see there's a thread asking if the Gans/McGovern fight in Chicago was on the level.If you watch the fight on YouTube it's almost unbelievable how a fighter like the great lightweight Gans ,who went 42 rounds with Battling Nelson and was in the stages of TB, was blown away by a featherweight,though a pretty tough one,like Terry McGovern in 2 rounds.The fight was shrouded with doubt.The smart money guys in the Windy City raked over the bookies.After that there wasn't a big fight in Chicago for 20 years.
I was a little kid living in the Southwest Side of Chicago,the Little Italy section they called "the Patch", when one Sunday afternoon my father said that we were invited for a Sunday dinner of pasta at his "boss's house.I wasn't that young that I didn't know who his "boss" was-Sam Giancana the Chicago Don (along with Tony Accardo) of the Chicago Outfit. Since me and my sisters and my mother were told to go play with "Mooney's" children ("Mooney" was Giancana's nickname because at the drop of a hat he'd could go raving mad like a lunatic)it was accepted as standard procedure.The men in the parlor.The women in the kitchen.The kids playing. But I always was looking for a place to eavesdrop on what the males had to say. That afternoon they were discussing ,amongst other things,how they had their fingers in the fight game, not only in Chicago,but aside from the east coast, the entire mid west.
Someone brought up the Gans/McGovern fight and how it was a set up. But they also said that the Italian mustache Petes didn't have a hand in it,It was the Jewish mafia,under the direction of Arnold Rothstein,who put the thing together. It was also Rothstein who was the major player fixing the 1919 "Black Sox" World Series scandal.(Rothstein bought off the judge and jury for that one getting "Not guilty verdicts."That night everyone celebrated at my my grandfather's nightclub,The Bella Napoli on Halsted Street. But the celebrating ended when the new commissioner of baseball , Kennesaw Landis, banished the team from baseball with the exception of Eddie Collins who wasn't in on the fix)
The Wise Guys had nothing but nice things to say about Rothstein. He set a "good" example on how to make fighting an even dirtier racket.
I remember when my father left Chicago.My mother wanted him to break away from those guys.They were either winding up getting whacked or spending the rest of their lives in jail. But my father was always on the phone with them just about everyday.Sometimes they'd come out to San Diego on some kind of business and make sure they made a stop at our house. I remember Paul Ricca (who ran things before Giancana ).There was Frankie LaPorte. And the colorful Jackie"The Lackey" Cerone.All those guys got their starts including Giancana,Accardo, and even Capone working for my grandfather "Diamond Joe" Esposito in The Patch.That's how my father became "connected."
After those guys would leave the FBI would come knocking on the door. My father became friends with the Special Agent in Charge of San Diego,Jack Armstrong.They'd go to lunch and Armstrong would sit back and listen about stories of Al Capone and how my father lived with Capone after my grandfather was gunned down outside his house.I wonder if my old man ever told him about how The Outfit controlled the fight game in Chicago?
My grandfather's epitaph
"Diamond Joe's" funeral. It was bigger than O'Bannion's.
My grandfather feeding the street urchins from Jane Addam's Hull House(that was across the street)at his Bella Naploli
Last edited by dagosd2000 on 31 Jan 2022, 23:17, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Hi Roger-there's a video on you tube of Mike Tyson and he's talking a bit about a gangster named "Diamond Joe". It's from his hotboxing show.
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Thanks Goose. I'll look it up.Elvis Presley's manager Joe Esposito, who was born in Chicago, also took my grandfather's name,"Diamond Joe." I'm still waiting to hear from Rodolfo Gonzalez regarding your question about pre fight weigh ins.
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Scoffin' Down A Feed
Yeah,I met Jack Dempsey once. I was 9 years old living in Chicago in "Diamond Joe's" house on the corner of Polk and Oakley Boulevards.But I'll be up front with you-I don't remember anything he had to say. You see my father invited him to come over to dinner when Dempsey was in town for something, and accepted the invitation to stuff himself with macaronis.I think my mother cooked him pennes with marinara sauce. Of course my grandmother had a hand in it. Maybe she cooked the pennes and left the antipasto to my mother. I know my father went to the Italian bakery on the corner to get the hot Italian bread just before everyone sat down to eat. That was a tradition and I made sure I always went along so I could pick off some of the crust to eat on the way back..
Anyway, I remember Jack Dempsey walking through the front door.He was a big dude with a scowl on his face that was natural but then he'd break out into a smile and hell if he didn't remind me of Clark Gable.Like I said I don't know why he was in Chicago but my father told me it wasn't the first time Jack was over to the house. You see when Al Capone pressed on him to work out a deal trying to rig the 3nd fight with Tunney, Dempsey and him were sitting down at my grandfather "Diamond Joe's" restauran,The Bella Napoli. Capone was in there almost every night scarfing down his linguinis and washing them down with homemade dago red. The Bella Napoli was a hangout for the Outfit. Paul Ricca got his start there as a waiter.Thus he got the nickname Paul "the Waiter" which he didn't like to be called.Later,in the 40's Ricca took over for Frank Nitti after Nitti committed suicide at the train station in the suburb west of Chicago , Riverside, where he lived. He was gonna' go to jail for extortion but he couldn't do time very well(he had claustrophobia) so he offed himself with his pistol as the train was pulling into the station.
Getting back to the sit down with Capone and Dempsey.Dempsey told Capone there was no way he could beat Tunney. This was going to be his last fight.Besides,Jack's wife ,the actress Estelle Parsons ,said she would leave him if he continued fighting.(Later, she left him anyway)That's how Jack Dempsey got to know my grandfather and in turn got to know his son,my father.
Being in the Mob was like being in the FBI or the CIA.You knew a lot of stuff the general public didn't know.Like when I was a kid I'd ask my dad if he and his pals were afraid of J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI.My old man would laugh and say that they controlled Hoover because they had pictures of him having sex with his number 2 boy ,Clyde Tolson. In a way J. Edgar let the Mafia do what they wanted.He even denied they even existed!
Hell,I can't remember what was discussed at the table with Jack Dempsey and my family. I'm sure it was nothing sensational.All I know was that Dempsey wolfed down that pasta like there was no tomorrow.
"Diamond Joe's" house.They tore it down in the 60's to make room for the University Of Illinois At Chicago.
The "Manassa Mauler" Jack Dempsey
Yeah,I met Jack Dempsey once. I was 9 years old living in Chicago in "Diamond Joe's" house on the corner of Polk and Oakley Boulevards.But I'll be up front with you-I don't remember anything he had to say. You see my father invited him to come over to dinner when Dempsey was in town for something, and accepted the invitation to stuff himself with macaronis.I think my mother cooked him pennes with marinara sauce. Of course my grandmother had a hand in it. Maybe she cooked the pennes and left the antipasto to my mother. I know my father went to the Italian bakery on the corner to get the hot Italian bread just before everyone sat down to eat. That was a tradition and I made sure I always went along so I could pick off some of the crust to eat on the way back..
Anyway, I remember Jack Dempsey walking through the front door.He was a big dude with a scowl on his face that was natural but then he'd break out into a smile and hell if he didn't remind me of Clark Gable.Like I said I don't know why he was in Chicago but my father told me it wasn't the first time Jack was over to the house. You see when Al Capone pressed on him to work out a deal trying to rig the 3nd fight with Tunney, Dempsey and him were sitting down at my grandfather "Diamond Joe's" restauran,The Bella Napoli. Capone was in there almost every night scarfing down his linguinis and washing them down with homemade dago red. The Bella Napoli was a hangout for the Outfit. Paul Ricca got his start there as a waiter.Thus he got the nickname Paul "the Waiter" which he didn't like to be called.Later,in the 40's Ricca took over for Frank Nitti after Nitti committed suicide at the train station in the suburb west of Chicago , Riverside, where he lived. He was gonna' go to jail for extortion but he couldn't do time very well(he had claustrophobia) so he offed himself with his pistol as the train was pulling into the station.
Getting back to the sit down with Capone and Dempsey.Dempsey told Capone there was no way he could beat Tunney. This was going to be his last fight.Besides,Jack's wife ,the actress Estelle Parsons ,said she would leave him if he continued fighting.(Later, she left him anyway)That's how Jack Dempsey got to know my grandfather and in turn got to know his son,my father.
Being in the Mob was like being in the FBI or the CIA.You knew a lot of stuff the general public didn't know.Like when I was a kid I'd ask my dad if he and his pals were afraid of J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI.My old man would laugh and say that they controlled Hoover because they had pictures of him having sex with his number 2 boy ,Clyde Tolson. In a way J. Edgar let the Mafia do what they wanted.He even denied they even existed!
Hell,I can't remember what was discussed at the table with Jack Dempsey and my family. I'm sure it was nothing sensational.All I know was that Dempsey wolfed down that pasta like there was no tomorrow.
"Diamond Joe's" house.They tore it down in the 60's to make room for the University Of Illinois At Chicago.
The "Manassa Mauler" Jack Dempsey
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Never In Awe
While I'm on my Mafia kick I'll tell you this, the Mob was never starstruck by fighters no matter how great some might have been.(The Mafia isn't impressed by anyone for that matter)Promoters are the same way. Fighters are a commodity to make o buck off.The Italian Mafia probably was most enamored(if you could call it that) with Rocky Marciano. He was a dago and to to top it off he was the heavyweight champion.But "Made Guys" didn't throw themselves at his feet. Rocky knew where he stood with them. The Mob would protect him as much as they could. Take for instance the Walcott rematch in Chicago(There I go again with Chicago-the hub of Outfit activity).Their first fight was a back and forth struggle,The second fight was over before you could say "Jersey Joe Showed Sonny Liston How To Flop."Everybody is still looking at the replay trying to find the punch that sent Jersey Joe to the Jersey Shore.
After Joe was counted out his manager,the Mob's Felix Bocchicchio, should have gotten at least a nomination for an Academy Award for pleading with the judges that his guy got a fast count.He even appealed the outcome to the Commission(that was controlled by The Mob) to make it look good. But there was no money to be made with another black heavyweight champion. Walcott was o Joe Louis ,and the public didn't want another Louis either.
But Walcott knew he couldn't beat Marciano. He put everything he had left in his tank in the first fight but he came up dry. There was no way Walcott had anything left for an effort like he showed in the first fight. So take the fall in 1st round and let your manager act like a typical Italian actor -overdoing it.
Afterr Rocky hung up his gloves he didn't know what to do with himself. He was the most restless guy you'd ever see.You can only bang so many broads two at a time and travel around the banquet circuit making sure you got paid up front in cold hard cash telling his followers how he beat Ezzard Charles with a nose that looked like Pinocchio's.
Rocky was a lousy husband and a lousy father.His brothers shrugged their shoulders.What could they tell him?And his wife? Rocky was seldom ever home. if that plane crash hadn't have killed him i don't think he would have lasted much longer. I know the Mafia didn't care one way or another.
Rocky Marciano
While I'm on my Mafia kick I'll tell you this, the Mob was never starstruck by fighters no matter how great some might have been.(The Mafia isn't impressed by anyone for that matter)Promoters are the same way. Fighters are a commodity to make o buck off.The Italian Mafia probably was most enamored(if you could call it that) with Rocky Marciano. He was a dago and to to top it off he was the heavyweight champion.But "Made Guys" didn't throw themselves at his feet. Rocky knew where he stood with them. The Mob would protect him as much as they could. Take for instance the Walcott rematch in Chicago(There I go again with Chicago-the hub of Outfit activity).Their first fight was a back and forth struggle,The second fight was over before you could say "Jersey Joe Showed Sonny Liston How To Flop."Everybody is still looking at the replay trying to find the punch that sent Jersey Joe to the Jersey Shore.
After Joe was counted out his manager,the Mob's Felix Bocchicchio, should have gotten at least a nomination for an Academy Award for pleading with the judges that his guy got a fast count.He even appealed the outcome to the Commission(that was controlled by The Mob) to make it look good. But there was no money to be made with another black heavyweight champion. Walcott was o Joe Louis ,and the public didn't want another Louis either.
But Walcott knew he couldn't beat Marciano. He put everything he had left in his tank in the first fight but he came up dry. There was no way Walcott had anything left for an effort like he showed in the first fight. So take the fall in 1st round and let your manager act like a typical Italian actor -overdoing it.
Afterr Rocky hung up his gloves he didn't know what to do with himself. He was the most restless guy you'd ever see.You can only bang so many broads two at a time and travel around the banquet circuit making sure you got paid up front in cold hard cash telling his followers how he beat Ezzard Charles with a nose that looked like Pinocchio's.
Rocky was a lousy husband and a lousy father.His brothers shrugged their shoulders.What could they tell him?And his wife? Rocky was seldom ever home. if that plane crash hadn't have killed him i don't think he would have lasted much longer. I know the Mafia didn't care one way or another.
Rocky Marciano
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
A Subject He Never Broached And Another That He Talked Your Ear Off
Unless Archie Moore brought up boxing I never mentioned it. I figured that's what people always wanted to talk to him about so I stayed away from it.I helped him out at his ABC club for a summer. It was down the road from where I was working-The Friendship Home For Severely Handicapped Youth. I was a teacher.The kids couldn't talk or walk and they had to be fed by hand. Most were victims of cerebral palsy. But the law said that they had to go to school.I'd just walk in the room where they were wheeled into everyday tried to make them laugh. The principal ,Gene Gallegos,said he would have liked to have hired me full time but I would have to go back and take courses in Special Ed. I passed. But I stayed close to Gene when I got a job with the Sweetwater Union District down by the border.
Things would wrap up at Friendship Home at noon and then I'd drive down to Moore's boys club.Like i said before it wasn't any hardcore gym by any stretch. It had a boxing ring and Archie and his son Billy would put the kids together to box but it wasn't anything dramatic. I helped around and tried not get in anyone's way. I felt comfortable there. I don't know what it is but I get along pretty good with people of color.I think the trick is getting to know their culture and enjoying it.
Like i said I never brought up boxing to Moore with the few conversations we had. One day I bumped into him at the neighborhood barbeque spot,Huffman's,near Lincoln High School.He was scoffing down a mess of fried chicken. He loved fried chicken. He was by himself at a table. He saw me walk in and invited me over. I brought along a meal of hot links and potato salad with a big slice of peach cobbler for dessert.
Well, Archie knew I liked jazz like he did. We'd see each other at some of the "black" jazz spots in Southeast San Diego. There the musicians wouldn't try to scam the audience that frequented mostly in the fancy clubs in the tourist areas that catered to the white crowd.So the conversation while we were eating naturally turned to jazz.
There was a time when Archie was so taken up with jazz that he gave thought to hanging up his gloves and being a jazz musician. i guess he sat in with the tenor man,Lucky Thompson,and his combo. Moore's instrument was the stand up bass.I never heard him play.But he was seriously considering going on the road with Thompson's group.This was just before he hooked up with Doc Kearns.
Moore was on his 5th marriage and he had kids to feed and wanted to build a house and playing the bass fiddle in an all black jazz combo wasn't going to fill his wallet like he needed.But Archie really loved the music.And he was a hep cat. Sure he was old school .He listed to Louie Armstrong but he became enthralled about what he was hearing from the young cats-Parker,Gillsepie,and Monk.It's funny.The younger black fighters were into the Motown sound and James Brown but Archie didn't buy into that.He liked Coltrane but was disappointed that he got "weird." Maybe taking too much acid with Pharaoh Sanders.He liked Miles Davis but Miles was a little too cool for the Mongoose.
I see these young black kids today and all they know are these rappers.I ask them about Archie Moore and they want to know if he is a rapper.It ain't even worth my time trying to explain things to them.
Thelonious Monk
Unless Archie Moore brought up boxing I never mentioned it. I figured that's what people always wanted to talk to him about so I stayed away from it.I helped him out at his ABC club for a summer. It was down the road from where I was working-The Friendship Home For Severely Handicapped Youth. I was a teacher.The kids couldn't talk or walk and they had to be fed by hand. Most were victims of cerebral palsy. But the law said that they had to go to school.I'd just walk in the room where they were wheeled into everyday tried to make them laugh. The principal ,Gene Gallegos,said he would have liked to have hired me full time but I would have to go back and take courses in Special Ed. I passed. But I stayed close to Gene when I got a job with the Sweetwater Union District down by the border.
Things would wrap up at Friendship Home at noon and then I'd drive down to Moore's boys club.Like i said before it wasn't any hardcore gym by any stretch. It had a boxing ring and Archie and his son Billy would put the kids together to box but it wasn't anything dramatic. I helped around and tried not get in anyone's way. I felt comfortable there. I don't know what it is but I get along pretty good with people of color.I think the trick is getting to know their culture and enjoying it.
Like i said I never brought up boxing to Moore with the few conversations we had. One day I bumped into him at the neighborhood barbeque spot,Huffman's,near Lincoln High School.He was scoffing down a mess of fried chicken. He loved fried chicken. He was by himself at a table. He saw me walk in and invited me over. I brought along a meal of hot links and potato salad with a big slice of peach cobbler for dessert.
Well, Archie knew I liked jazz like he did. We'd see each other at some of the "black" jazz spots in Southeast San Diego. There the musicians wouldn't try to scam the audience that frequented mostly in the fancy clubs in the tourist areas that catered to the white crowd.So the conversation while we were eating naturally turned to jazz.
There was a time when Archie was so taken up with jazz that he gave thought to hanging up his gloves and being a jazz musician. i guess he sat in with the tenor man,Lucky Thompson,and his combo. Moore's instrument was the stand up bass.I never heard him play.But he was seriously considering going on the road with Thompson's group.This was just before he hooked up with Doc Kearns.
Moore was on his 5th marriage and he had kids to feed and wanted to build a house and playing the bass fiddle in an all black jazz combo wasn't going to fill his wallet like he needed.But Archie really loved the music.And he was a hep cat. Sure he was old school .He listed to Louie Armstrong but he became enthralled about what he was hearing from the young cats-Parker,Gillsepie,and Monk.It's funny.The younger black fighters were into the Motown sound and James Brown but Archie didn't buy into that.He liked Coltrane but was disappointed that he got "weird." Maybe taking too much acid with Pharaoh Sanders.He liked Miles Davis but Miles was a little too cool for the Mongoose.
I see these young black kids today and all they know are these rappers.I ask them about Archie Moore and they want to know if he is a rapper.It ain't even worth my time trying to explain things to them.
Thelonious Monk
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Greatest Jazz Concert Of All Time
That's what they called it later,the jazz concert in Toronto ,Canada at Massey Hall.The plan was for the musicians in the New Jazz Society Of Toronto to make some money putting on a show with arguably the greatest "Bop" musicians on the planet.
Charlie Parker would be on alto sax;Dizzy Gillespie on trumpet;Bud Powell playing piano,Charlie Mingus(who organized the music and the recording)on the bass;and Max Roach on the skins.They were all groundbreakers of the "new" music that supplanted the traditional cookie cutter patterns of the swing era sound whether it was Goodman or Armstrong's blues leading their groups.The boppers took risks. Their virtuosity surpassed the old schoolers.It was totally new.It was totally brilliant. Some musicians like Armstrong couldn't keep up and labeled "bop" "Chinese music."But the new kids on the block didn't want to argue.They played for themselves and let the chips fall where they lie.
The concert at Massey Hall was booked on May 15th,1953. Everyone involved was excited that the 2000 capacity venue would be a sell out.But something cropped up that threw a monkey wrench into that vision. The rematch between Rocky Marciano and Joe Walcott(that had been previously postponed)was rescheduled on the same night as the jazz concert. So who won out? The fight buffs of course. They decided to stay home and watch Rocky and Jersey Joe go at it again.The concert hall was so empty that you could hear the echoes of the stragglers walking to take their seats.,
Dizzy Gillespie,who was most ardent boxing fan of the group,kept going back stage to keep up on what was transpiring with the fight.When it was over inside a round he walked back to the bandstand with trumpet in hand and his head down.He had laid a bet on Walcott.He might as well given his dough to the jazz musicians benevolent fund.
The concert was all that it was billed up to.The playing was senstional. What made it extra special was the quality of the recording.The sound was unusually brilliant.Back in those times some fan would bring his little tape recorder into a club and record the sets for his personal satisfaction.Then 20 years later they'd find the tape stowed away in his attic after he had passed away.A record promoter would put it on a disc and then sell it to the public.The problem was that the sound quality was pretty bad. Like the thing was taped inside a telephone booth.The quality of sound from the sessions at Massey Hall were clear as a bell. I think that's the real reason they called it "The Greatest Jazz Concert Of All Time."
Dizzy Gillespie
Jazz At Massey Hall-Wee
That's what they called it later,the jazz concert in Toronto ,Canada at Massey Hall.The plan was for the musicians in the New Jazz Society Of Toronto to make some money putting on a show with arguably the greatest "Bop" musicians on the planet.
Charlie Parker would be on alto sax;Dizzy Gillespie on trumpet;Bud Powell playing piano,Charlie Mingus(who organized the music and the recording)on the bass;and Max Roach on the skins.They were all groundbreakers of the "new" music that supplanted the traditional cookie cutter patterns of the swing era sound whether it was Goodman or Armstrong's blues leading their groups.The boppers took risks. Their virtuosity surpassed the old schoolers.It was totally new.It was totally brilliant. Some musicians like Armstrong couldn't keep up and labeled "bop" "Chinese music."But the new kids on the block didn't want to argue.They played for themselves and let the chips fall where they lie.
The concert at Massey Hall was booked on May 15th,1953. Everyone involved was excited that the 2000 capacity venue would be a sell out.But something cropped up that threw a monkey wrench into that vision. The rematch between Rocky Marciano and Joe Walcott(that had been previously postponed)was rescheduled on the same night as the jazz concert. So who won out? The fight buffs of course. They decided to stay home and watch Rocky and Jersey Joe go at it again.The concert hall was so empty that you could hear the echoes of the stragglers walking to take their seats.,
Dizzy Gillespie,who was most ardent boxing fan of the group,kept going back stage to keep up on what was transpiring with the fight.When it was over inside a round he walked back to the bandstand with trumpet in hand and his head down.He had laid a bet on Walcott.He might as well given his dough to the jazz musicians benevolent fund.
The concert was all that it was billed up to.The playing was senstional. What made it extra special was the quality of the recording.The sound was unusually brilliant.Back in those times some fan would bring his little tape recorder into a club and record the sets for his personal satisfaction.Then 20 years later they'd find the tape stowed away in his attic after he had passed away.A record promoter would put it on a disc and then sell it to the public.The problem was that the sound quality was pretty bad. Like the thing was taped inside a telephone booth.The quality of sound from the sessions at Massey Hall were clear as a bell. I think that's the real reason they called it "The Greatest Jazz Concert Of All Time."
Dizzy Gillespie
Jazz At Massey Hall-Wee
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Roger: would you say that Moore had a quick/bad temper ?
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
That's an interesting question.I'd say no.But if you didn't see it Moore's way he'd lose his amiability.For instance he never softened in his dislike of Ali. He thought Ali(Clay then) had disrespected him with his poetic predictions and slights before their fight.The way he described Moore as an old, slow, plodding fighter.Clay said "Moore would fall in 4" and that's what happened.(I'm sure he could have gotten Moore out of there much sooner but Clay wanted to say "See I told you so!")
It probably all started when Clay went to Moore as a young pro believing that he was the man to guide him to the championship.But Moore pressed on Clay to fight His way and change his style. Then there was all the discipline at Moore's camp.Clay was spoiled by his mama.He wasn't going to sweep floors and wash dishes.When Clay walked out on Moore he felt insulted.Moore spent the rest of his life trying to work with a fighter who would kick Clay/Ali's ass.
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Archie Moore's training camp was located in the foothills north of San Diego outside the small town of Ramona. I never went there but the asphalt road that led to the facility was renamed Archie Moore Road. I remember the small wooden structures that had been abandoned.I'm sure they have been torn down by now to make room for tract housing or a shopping mall.
Archie Moore's training camp.He called it "The Salt Mine." Ali wasn't ever a "Salt Mine" ilk.
Archie Moore's training camp.He called it "The Salt Mine." Ali wasn't ever a "Salt Mine" ilk.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Sugar For Dessert
I got to admit that Aileen Eaton could sell a fight.Forget that she was a woman.Hell,she once 86'd Mickey Cohen from the Olympic Auditorium because she didn't like the way he parted his hair. They'd have live fights from the Olympic on the tube and there would be Mrs. Eaton on the tube building up the card in a manner that would have elicited applause from P.T. Barnum.However, if the main event featured two crackerjacks then you'd have to watch the 10 o'clock news.
I remember when Hedgemon Lewis hit town. Mrs. Eaton would have the Detroit transplant build his rep against a few club fighters that were sired on the TV..Lewis was so skilled that the comparisons were being made to Ray Robinson.But then that demanded the showdown with the other hot welterweight in The City Of Angels,"Indian Red" Lopez. Well,I didn't feel like watching the 10 o'clock news that night so I rode up to LA and caught the fight at The Olympic.Mrs. Eaton sure knew how to build up a fight.
There was another time when Armando Muniz was beginning to feel his oats.This was around the early 70's. Mrs. Eaton knew she had a live one was Mando.Now she had to find a decent body to give him a tussle.The "body's" name was Thurman Durden.
Well,the way she was talking this one up it was ,like the next coming of Griffith and Rodriguez.There was gonna' be no live broadcast for this one either.If I wanted to see it I'd have to fill up my car with gas again.
Back then there was no BoxRec archives to look up a fighter's record.There was the Ring Record Book but that only came out once a year and half the time the records were dead wrong and to add on top of that 99 % of the fighters on the globe were on the pay no mind list.,But Mrs. Eaton had me believing that Thurman Durden was the genuine article.I was unaware that Durden was coming off back to back losses.A losing decision to Oscar Albarado and a KO defeat to Ryu Sorimachi in Japan.
The Olympic was SRO that night. You could feel the electricity in the air to borrow a phrase from every Tom ,Dick,and Harry.But before the Mando/Thurman show Mrs. Eaton gave the crowd a little dessert before the meat and potatos.It was to be a two 2 minute round exhibition between Mike Nixon,a legit pug,,against the immortal Sugar Ray Robinson. This is June of 1973 and Robby hadn't fought a real fight in eight years and now I'm second guessing Mrs. Eaton on this one. I'm hoping that Nixon is going to take it easy on the old man but when the bell rang there's Mike storming out of his corner like he doesn't want to be shown up.But then the once greatest fighter of all time started behaving like he'd found The Fountain Of Youth.Nixon chased him around the ring but Robinson moved like a dancer,stabbing the kid with his jab and then keeping enough distance to smile and wave to the crowd. Mike never touched him.Richard Nixon could have as done as much.
Well,how do you top that?It didn't. The main event stunk to high heaven to borrow another phrase from Tom ,Dick,and their pal Harry. Durden didn't want any part of Mando. But that didn't stop Mando from wanting to tear his head off. In the 2nd round Mando threw a punch that missed but Durden pretended it didn't and the fight was over in 30 seconds of the round.
But maybe Mrs. Eaton knew she had a cropper in the main event. So what do you do?Have Sugar Ray Robinson shake out the cobwebs and give us something to talk about afterwards.
Sugar Ray Robinson
I got to admit that Aileen Eaton could sell a fight.Forget that she was a woman.Hell,she once 86'd Mickey Cohen from the Olympic Auditorium because she didn't like the way he parted his hair. They'd have live fights from the Olympic on the tube and there would be Mrs. Eaton on the tube building up the card in a manner that would have elicited applause from P.T. Barnum.However, if the main event featured two crackerjacks then you'd have to watch the 10 o'clock news.
I remember when Hedgemon Lewis hit town. Mrs. Eaton would have the Detroit transplant build his rep against a few club fighters that were sired on the TV..Lewis was so skilled that the comparisons were being made to Ray Robinson.But then that demanded the showdown with the other hot welterweight in The City Of Angels,"Indian Red" Lopez. Well,I didn't feel like watching the 10 o'clock news that night so I rode up to LA and caught the fight at The Olympic.Mrs. Eaton sure knew how to build up a fight.
There was another time when Armando Muniz was beginning to feel his oats.This was around the early 70's. Mrs. Eaton knew she had a live one was Mando.Now she had to find a decent body to give him a tussle.The "body's" name was Thurman Durden.
Well,the way she was talking this one up it was ,like the next coming of Griffith and Rodriguez.There was gonna' be no live broadcast for this one either.If I wanted to see it I'd have to fill up my car with gas again.
Back then there was no BoxRec archives to look up a fighter's record.There was the Ring Record Book but that only came out once a year and half the time the records were dead wrong and to add on top of that 99 % of the fighters on the globe were on the pay no mind list.,But Mrs. Eaton had me believing that Thurman Durden was the genuine article.I was unaware that Durden was coming off back to back losses.A losing decision to Oscar Albarado and a KO defeat to Ryu Sorimachi in Japan.
The Olympic was SRO that night. You could feel the electricity in the air to borrow a phrase from every Tom ,Dick,and Harry.But before the Mando/Thurman show Mrs. Eaton gave the crowd a little dessert before the meat and potatos.It was to be a two 2 minute round exhibition between Mike Nixon,a legit pug,,against the immortal Sugar Ray Robinson. This is June of 1973 and Robby hadn't fought a real fight in eight years and now I'm second guessing Mrs. Eaton on this one. I'm hoping that Nixon is going to take it easy on the old man but when the bell rang there's Mike storming out of his corner like he doesn't want to be shown up.But then the once greatest fighter of all time started behaving like he'd found The Fountain Of Youth.Nixon chased him around the ring but Robinson moved like a dancer,stabbing the kid with his jab and then keeping enough distance to smile and wave to the crowd. Mike never touched him.Richard Nixon could have as done as much.
Well,how do you top that?It didn't. The main event stunk to high heaven to borrow another phrase from Tom ,Dick,and their pal Harry. Durden didn't want any part of Mando. But that didn't stop Mando from wanting to tear his head off. In the 2nd round Mando threw a punch that missed but Durden pretended it didn't and the fight was over in 30 seconds of the round.
But maybe Mrs. Eaton knew she had a cropper in the main event. So what do you do?Have Sugar Ray Robinson shake out the cobwebs and give us something to talk about afterwards.
Sugar Ray Robinson
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
On this week's Noir Alley program hosted by Eddie Muller on TCM, the featured film was The Turning Point, starring William Holden, Alexis Smith and Edmund O'Brien. The 1952 crime drama is not one of Holden's best-known films, but it has a lot of black-and-white footage of certain places in early 1950s Los Angeles, including some terrific footage of the interior of the Olympic Auditorium. I can't think of another film which has such good footage of the famed boxing venue.
- Chuck Johnston
- Chuck Johnston
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
He Was No Second Fiddle
Cassias Clay's first choice for a trainer was "Sugar Ray" Robinson.Imagine Robinson being with the kid through to the end instead of Angelo Dundee? Robinson turned down the offer. Those two egos wouldn't have fit inside the same ring not to mention the same gym. I couldn't imagine Robinson with a towel draped over his shoulder,Q Tip in his mouth, wearing a shirt that read "The Greatest" on the back(unless it referred to himself).What would Clay have asked from him? Clay had a falling out with Archie Moore because "The Mongoose" wanted him to fight with his gloves crossed in front of his chest just like he used to do.
But Robinson knew that anything he told Clay would fall on deaf ears. it was those Cuban fighters,Luis Rodriguez and Jose Legra working out at Chris Dundee's Main Street Gym in Miami,that made the impression with young Cassius. He had the ability to jump around the ring the way they did and have 210 pounds on his frame.
I have to give credit to Angelo Dundee for not taking any credit for making Clay the fighter he turned out to be. Dundee once said the only time Clay listened to him in the corner was when Doug Jones was giving him problems.
"Get your hands up!"yelled Angelo.
Clay followed orders and in the ensuing round Jones almost knocked him into the front row of seats.
I remember watching the now Ali train for Kenny Norton the first time around in San Diego. Dundee would follow Ali into the ring like a lonely bridesmaid. He never said much to Ali except,"what do you want to do next?"I couldn't imagine Ray Robinson being a "tag along."
Robinson's manager and trainer(if you wanted to call him that)was George Gainsford.But Robby did all that managerial and training stuff on his own.Ray Robinson,when approached by Cassius Clay, probably said,"Thanks but no thanks."He lost out on a lot of easy money but then again Robby's ego was worth more to him than being a shadow to "The Greatest."Robinson believed he WAS "The Greatest" and you can't walk behind anybody if you're that great.
One of the two Greatest
Cassias Clay's first choice for a trainer was "Sugar Ray" Robinson.Imagine Robinson being with the kid through to the end instead of Angelo Dundee? Robinson turned down the offer. Those two egos wouldn't have fit inside the same ring not to mention the same gym. I couldn't imagine Robinson with a towel draped over his shoulder,Q Tip in his mouth, wearing a shirt that read "The Greatest" on the back(unless it referred to himself).What would Clay have asked from him? Clay had a falling out with Archie Moore because "The Mongoose" wanted him to fight with his gloves crossed in front of his chest just like he used to do.
But Robinson knew that anything he told Clay would fall on deaf ears. it was those Cuban fighters,Luis Rodriguez and Jose Legra working out at Chris Dundee's Main Street Gym in Miami,that made the impression with young Cassius. He had the ability to jump around the ring the way they did and have 210 pounds on his frame.
I have to give credit to Angelo Dundee for not taking any credit for making Clay the fighter he turned out to be. Dundee once said the only time Clay listened to him in the corner was when Doug Jones was giving him problems.
"Get your hands up!"yelled Angelo.
Clay followed orders and in the ensuing round Jones almost knocked him into the front row of seats.
I remember watching the now Ali train for Kenny Norton the first time around in San Diego. Dundee would follow Ali into the ring like a lonely bridesmaid. He never said much to Ali except,"what do you want to do next?"I couldn't imagine Ray Robinson being a "tag along."
Robinson's manager and trainer(if you wanted to call him that)was George Gainsford.But Robby did all that managerial and training stuff on his own.Ray Robinson,when approached by Cassius Clay, probably said,"Thanks but no thanks."He lost out on a lot of easy money but then again Robby's ego was worth more to him than being a shadow to "The Greatest."Robinson believed he WAS "The Greatest" and you can't walk behind anybody if you're that great.
One of the two Greatest
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Saw that Chuck.I'd never seen that movie before.Good stuff.Chuck1052 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2022, 19:28 On this week's Noir Alley program hosted by Eddie Muller on TCM, the featured film was The Turning Point, starring William Holden, Alexis Smith and Edmund O'Brien. The 1952 crime drama is not one of Holden's best-known films, but it has a lot of black-and-white footage of certain places in early 1950s Los Angeles, including some terrific footage of the interior of the Olympic Auditorium. I can't think of another film which has such good footage of the famed boxing venue.
- Chuck Johnston
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Trunks Are The Windows Of The Soul To The Fighter
I remember back when the first fighter I saw wearing baggy trunks was Archie Moore. it was his last fight with the brash Clay. Moore looked old even before the fight started.I think a lot of that had to do with his baggy trunks. The hem just about covered his knees. His trunks were so baggy it looked like he could fit another pair of legs inside with no problem.
Clay on the other hand looked the epitome of the Fountain Of Youth.He always donned white trunks with the black piping except when he wore red trunks the time he lost to Frazier.After that fight the now Ali partly blamed his choice of wavering his boxing wardrobe for red trunks and putting tassels on his shoes for his defeat. But as Ali started slowing down, gaining weight,and growing old he joined the "Baggy Trunks Club.".But it was still a color combo of simple white with the black stripes down the sides.
Joe Frazier was the second fighter I recall wearing baggy trunks. Even when he was in his prime he wore those baggy trunks.They kind of fit his personality. He tried to look cool even in street clothes but he was ,for me, always off the mark. Oversized suits with blazing colors with floppy lapels and a Zoot era fedora on his head;Well he looked ridiculous,to me at least.Then he started talking and you could make an analogy of what was coming out of his mouth with his clothes.
Today, if a fighter is wearing the standard style trunks of the 50's he's definitely not in vogue. Some may even question his sexuality because of the skimpy material.
But wait a minute. How about the time ,pre 90's, when basketball players wore those tight fitting shorts?Even Michael Jordan ,when they show the old replays,looks like a dork,at least to me he does.
The Old Mongoose showing his age with those baggy trunks
Maromero Paez in vogue and getting his ass kicked by Oscar De La Hoya
I remember back when the first fighter I saw wearing baggy trunks was Archie Moore. it was his last fight with the brash Clay. Moore looked old even before the fight started.I think a lot of that had to do with his baggy trunks. The hem just about covered his knees. His trunks were so baggy it looked like he could fit another pair of legs inside with no problem.
Clay on the other hand looked the epitome of the Fountain Of Youth.He always donned white trunks with the black piping except when he wore red trunks the time he lost to Frazier.After that fight the now Ali partly blamed his choice of wavering his boxing wardrobe for red trunks and putting tassels on his shoes for his defeat. But as Ali started slowing down, gaining weight,and growing old he joined the "Baggy Trunks Club.".But it was still a color combo of simple white with the black stripes down the sides.
Joe Frazier was the second fighter I recall wearing baggy trunks. Even when he was in his prime he wore those baggy trunks.They kind of fit his personality. He tried to look cool even in street clothes but he was ,for me, always off the mark. Oversized suits with blazing colors with floppy lapels and a Zoot era fedora on his head;Well he looked ridiculous,to me at least.Then he started talking and you could make an analogy of what was coming out of his mouth with his clothes.
Today, if a fighter is wearing the standard style trunks of the 50's he's definitely not in vogue. Some may even question his sexuality because of the skimpy material.
But wait a minute. How about the time ,pre 90's, when basketball players wore those tight fitting shorts?Even Michael Jordan ,when they show the old replays,looks like a dork,at least to me he does.
The Old Mongoose showing his age with those baggy trunks
Maromero Paez in vogue and getting his ass kicked by Oscar De La Hoya
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
He Had The Right Stuff
Eddie Futch kept Ken Norton away from San Diego most of the time. There just wasn't enough quality sparring opponents down here so Futch had Norton work out mostly in Los Angeles. Joe Frazier,another of Eddie's charges, was the flagship of Eddie's fleet of fighters.Los Angeles had a smart set of heavyweights who for the time being were making The City Of Angels their stomping grounds.The intensity of having Norton work with Frazier was beneficial for both fighters.However, those sparring sessions were exclusively held in Los Angeles.
Norton did practice from time to time in San Diego.That was mostly in the beginning of his pro career. That's when I was pressed into giving him some work sparring and in turn Norton gave me the working over.I've told the story before.I wasn't the designated victim that day. My friend,if I wanted to call him that later ,bailed so he volunteered me.I couldb't back out and save face but it totally unexpected.
Like I've mentioned before the sparring was taken a little too seriously with Kenny. He waned some quality and all I had to offer was quantity. I was big enough but I didn't know how to fight,at least good enough to make it worth Norton's time. So he whacked me around.He bloodied my face before you could say "Get the hook." Eddie Fitch was witness to the mismatch and quickly broke things up.
I was embarrassed but then again Futch probably saved me from ever thinking about becoming a professional pug.The way Futch handled it was what impressed me. He was keeping a close eye on things. He wasn't a sadist. The few times I saw him with Norton in San Diego he was very calm with a fatherly manner about him. He was also very inciteful with his instruction,very savvy..He knew what he had with each fighter in his stable and brought out the best with each of them.He didn't dictate a cross the board style. The big three he had at the time-Norton,Frazier,and Hedgemon Lewis-were all distinctive in method. Eddie Futch was the best trainer I ever saw,He was professional.A man's man without being overly verbose.He never was a rah rah guy.Most importantly he really cared for his fighters.They weren't cash cows that were to be thrown to the bone heap when they couldn't cut the mustard anymore.
I always remember that ending to the Thrilla' In Manila". There's Frazier sitting on his stool,wounded and blind but as brave as ever,and Futch not letting him continue for the last round.Joe was hopelessly behind by that time.He couldn't have put together a knockout. The cards were all on the table.
"I was thinking of Joe's family,"said Futch afterwards," I knew his kids.I didn't want his kids to have a father that wouldn't be there in mind and spirit for them later in life."
Class guy this Eddie Futch.Thinking of Joe as a human being,as good as friend as anyone could ever have.He wanted as much of a quality of life for Joe when that time came that he wouldn't be fighting any longer.
Then I think of Angelo Dundee.One of the most overrated trainers in the history of the sport.In the beginning he had a hand with Willie Pastrano.And I wonder how much with Carmen Basilio?But the others? Ali,Leonard,Napoles,El Feo,Sugar Ramos;and later Foreman,De La Hoya;he never taught those guys how to fight. He'd come to camp as things were winding down in the last two weeks and talk to the press.
But the thing that always stuck in my craw was Ali's fight with Holmes. Dundee shouldn't have never taken that on.He could see in training camp that Ali was just a shell. Pacheco was gone after the Manila fight. He saw that Ali was a hurt fighter.Angelo should have walked away. But no.There he was letting Ali go out round after round getting the s--t kicked out of him by Holmes. Ali's courage would have killed him as much a Larry's punches if Herbert Muhammad hadn't yelled at Dundee to stop it. Dundee didn't stop that fight.Oh,he verbalized it to Richard Green but he took the cue from Herbert Muhammad,Ali's manager, who was sitting ringside.Nice going Ange. That was the fight that pushed Ali on the fast track to dementia.Eddie Futch would have never let Ali take punishment like that.But Eddie was his own man. What was inside him was of the right stuff.I don't know what was inside Dundee.
Eddie Futch
Eddie Futch kept Ken Norton away from San Diego most of the time. There just wasn't enough quality sparring opponents down here so Futch had Norton work out mostly in Los Angeles. Joe Frazier,another of Eddie's charges, was the flagship of Eddie's fleet of fighters.Los Angeles had a smart set of heavyweights who for the time being were making The City Of Angels their stomping grounds.The intensity of having Norton work with Frazier was beneficial for both fighters.However, those sparring sessions were exclusively held in Los Angeles.
Norton did practice from time to time in San Diego.That was mostly in the beginning of his pro career. That's when I was pressed into giving him some work sparring and in turn Norton gave me the working over.I've told the story before.I wasn't the designated victim that day. My friend,if I wanted to call him that later
,bailed so he volunteered me.I couldb't back out and save face but it totally unexpected. Like I've mentioned before the sparring was taken a little too seriously with Kenny. He waned some quality and all I had to offer was quantity. I was big enough but I didn't know how to fight,at least good enough to make it worth Norton's time. So he whacked me around.He bloodied my face before you could say "Get the hook." Eddie Fitch was witness to the mismatch and quickly broke things up.
I was embarrassed but then again Futch probably saved me from ever thinking about becoming a professional pug.The way Futch handled it was what impressed me. He was keeping a close eye on things. He wasn't a sadist. The few times I saw him with Norton in San Diego he was very calm with a fatherly manner about him. He was also very inciteful with his instruction,very savvy..He knew what he had with each fighter in his stable and brought out the best with each of them.He didn't dictate a cross the board style. The big three he had at the time-Norton,Frazier,and Hedgemon Lewis-were all distinctive in method. Eddie Futch was the best trainer I ever saw,He was professional.A man's man without being overly verbose.He never was a rah rah guy.Most importantly he really cared for his fighters.They weren't cash cows that were to be thrown to the bone heap when they couldn't cut the mustard anymore.
I always remember that ending to the Thrilla' In Manila". There's Frazier sitting on his stool,wounded and blind but as brave as ever,and Futch not letting him continue for the last round.Joe was hopelessly behind by that time.He couldn't have put together a knockout. The cards were all on the table.
"I was thinking of Joe's family,"said Futch afterwards," I knew his kids.I didn't want his kids to have a father that wouldn't be there in mind and spirit for them later in life."
Class guy this Eddie Futch.Thinking of Joe as a human being,as good as friend as anyone could ever have.He wanted as much of a quality of life for Joe when that time came that he wouldn't be fighting any longer.
Then I think of Angelo Dundee.One of the most overrated trainers in the history of the sport.In the beginning he had a hand with Willie Pastrano.And I wonder how much with Carmen Basilio?But the others? Ali,Leonard,Napoles,El Feo,Sugar Ramos;and later Foreman,De La Hoya;he never taught those guys how to fight. He'd come to camp as things were winding down in the last two weeks and talk to the press.
But the thing that always stuck in my craw was Ali's fight with Holmes. Dundee shouldn't have never taken that on.He could see in training camp that Ali was just a shell. Pacheco was gone after the Manila fight. He saw that Ali was a hurt fighter.Angelo should have walked away. But no.There he was letting Ali go out round after round getting the s--t kicked out of him by Holmes. Ali's courage would have killed him as much a Larry's punches if Herbert Muhammad hadn't yelled at Dundee to stop it. Dundee didn't stop that fight.Oh,he verbalized it to Richard Green but he took the cue from Herbert Muhammad,Ali's manager, who was sitting ringside.Nice going Ange. That was the fight that pushed Ali on the fast track to dementia.Eddie Futch would have never let Ali take punishment like that.But Eddie was his own man. What was inside him was of the right stuff.I don't know what was inside Dundee.
Eddie Futch
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Only Guy Who Had It Figured Out
I was watching that documentary last night on TCM "When We Were Kings" that profiled the fight with Ali and Foreman in Zaire,the one Ali called "The Rumble In The Jungle." I used to show it to my history classes when i was working in those schools by the border. The film wasn't part of the curriculum but hell i wanted to break up the monotony of the Revolutionary War and all the presidents and the "good government bull---t."Besides, the kids in my classes were mostly Mexican and they weren't too interested in all those white faces.
The kids had heard of Muhammad Ali only that he was a fighter and the champ once. They didn't know of any of his fights.George Foreman and Joe Frazier could have just have been names that were made up.But watching "When We Were Kings" kept their attention from start to finish.Like Bundini Brown said "This is real.It's not anything Hollywood made up bringing in a bunch of actors."
A couple of things have always stuck in my mind about the documentary.
One;The way Larry Holmes, who was Ali's main sparring partner, handled him in the workout sessions. Holmes consistently beat Ali with the jab.That showed itself again two years later when Ali brought Holmes with him to train for his "Thrilla' In Manila" against Frazier. Holmes would get there first with the jab.When Holmes and Ali squared off in a real fight Ali couldn't even muster up a jab by then.
Two:The second point is the one that shows me that Ali was a genius of sorts. not in the physical sense but mentally.Psychologically. He was telling everyone that Foreman wouldn't lay a glove on him because he was "gonna' dance."I don't know if everyone was buying that but that's what Muhammad was shouting from the mountain top.He'd warm up shadow boxing and float round the ring but there was ho one in there to do battle with. I guess Angelo Dundee thought that that was the game plan too.-dance and tire out George.
But Ali hadn't "danced" in a fight since he fought Folley in the antebellum prior to his beef with the draft board.That was more than 5 years earlier. Ali hadn't shown anything that would have made Fred Astaire envious since then.Foeman's handlers,Dick Saddler and his assistant Archie Moore, were content to stick with how George got to the top-out punch the other guy into submission.It had worked with just about all his targets with the exception of the Argentinian ,Gregorio Peralta.
I got to hand it to Greg. He figured he'd better move away from Foreman's power if he had a chance of beating him.In their first fight Foreman thought the 9th round was the last round and when he went back to his corner he heard the bad news-there was one more frame to go and he was running on empty.Oh,he got the win.There was rematch and George did better stopping Peralta in the final round but Foreman was extended by the South American.Don't think that those fights gave Ali a heads up.
But Ali was telling everyone there were no secrets going into the fight."I'm gonna' dance all night."Saddler and Moore had big George socking the heavy bag like howitzer shells slamming into a sack of potatoes.He was busting those bags like Dick and Arch thought George was going to do to Ali's torso.
But c'mon man. Did those two dummies really think that Foreman was going to take out Ali in two rounds or less? Did they think they had another Joe "King" Roman on the hook?I've never seen a more stupid game plan in my life. What were they thinking?Maybe George thought so ,or wanted the utmost to shut Ali's mouth ASAP but not employing the same strategy he used against the others.Frazier walked right into Foreman's power.He couldn't change his style. Norton was the deer in the headlights.He pulled a Patterson against LIston.He was whipped before the fight began.But Ali was smarter than anyone on the continent of Africa that night.,The previous day he had the ring ropes loosened.But he didn't tell anyone why. In the dressing room before the fight his entourage acted like they were at a funeral.But Ali played his poker faced hand.
George went out there like he wanted to end it in one round.Ali threw 12 right hand leads thinking that Foreman might flop like Liston from the "Anchor Punch." But it was no dice.Ali would have to "Rope A Dope" George until he his gloves felt like sacks of flour. up In the 6th round Ali sensed that the time was near. In the 7th Ali hit George on the chin and you could yell "Timber!".George was headed downward and Aii could have clipped him but didn't He knew it as over.Even if George had gotten back up.It was over.So there's Archie Moore,the man who wanted to see Foreman in the worse way clobber Ali, putting George's robe back on his shoulders. What a joke.
It just proved that for that night Muhammad Ali was in control.The guru.He knew what he had left and what he needed to do to beat Foreman. As for George,Saddler,and Moore?Let's just say they all got schooled by someone who was way out of their league.
George Foreman
I was watching that documentary last night on TCM "When We Were Kings" that profiled the fight with Ali and Foreman in Zaire,the one Ali called "The Rumble In The Jungle." I used to show it to my history classes when i was working in those schools by the border. The film wasn't part of the curriculum but hell i wanted to break up the monotony of the Revolutionary War and all the presidents and the "good government bull---t."Besides, the kids in my classes were mostly Mexican and they weren't too interested in all those white faces.
The kids had heard of Muhammad Ali only that he was a fighter and the champ once. They didn't know of any of his fights.George Foreman and Joe Frazier could have just have been names that were made up.But watching "When We Were Kings" kept their attention from start to finish.Like Bundini Brown said "This is real.It's not anything Hollywood made up bringing in a bunch of actors."
A couple of things have always stuck in my mind about the documentary.
One;The way Larry Holmes, who was Ali's main sparring partner, handled him in the workout sessions. Holmes consistently beat Ali with the jab.That showed itself again two years later when Ali brought Holmes with him to train for his "Thrilla' In Manila" against Frazier. Holmes would get there first with the jab.When Holmes and Ali squared off in a real fight Ali couldn't even muster up a jab by then.
Two:The second point is the one that shows me that Ali was a genius of sorts. not in the physical sense but mentally.Psychologically. He was telling everyone that Foreman wouldn't lay a glove on him because he was "gonna' dance."I don't know if everyone was buying that but that's what Muhammad was shouting from the mountain top.He'd warm up shadow boxing and float round the ring but there was ho one in there to do battle with. I guess Angelo Dundee thought that that was the game plan too.-dance and tire out George.
But Ali hadn't "danced" in a fight since he fought Folley in the antebellum prior to his beef with the draft board.That was more than 5 years earlier. Ali hadn't shown anything that would have made Fred Astaire envious since then.Foeman's handlers,Dick Saddler and his assistant Archie Moore, were content to stick with how George got to the top-out punch the other guy into submission.It had worked with just about all his targets with the exception of the Argentinian ,Gregorio Peralta.
I got to hand it to Greg. He figured he'd better move away from Foreman's power if he had a chance of beating him.In their first fight Foreman thought the 9th round was the last round and when he went back to his corner he heard the bad news-there was one more frame to go and he was running on empty.Oh,he got the win.There was rematch and George did better stopping Peralta in the final round but Foreman was extended by the South American.Don't think that those fights gave Ali a heads up.
But Ali was telling everyone there were no secrets going into the fight."I'm gonna' dance all night."Saddler and Moore had big George socking the heavy bag like howitzer shells slamming into a sack of potatoes.He was busting those bags like Dick and Arch thought George was going to do to Ali's torso.
But c'mon man. Did those two dummies really think that Foreman was going to take out Ali in two rounds or less? Did they think they had another Joe "King" Roman on the hook?I've never seen a more stupid game plan in my life. What were they thinking?Maybe George thought so ,or wanted the utmost to shut Ali's mouth ASAP but not employing the same strategy he used against the others.Frazier walked right into Foreman's power.He couldn't change his style. Norton was the deer in the headlights.He pulled a Patterson against LIston.He was whipped before the fight began.But Ali was smarter than anyone on the continent of Africa that night.,The previous day he had the ring ropes loosened.But he didn't tell anyone why. In the dressing room before the fight his entourage acted like they were at a funeral.But Ali played his poker faced hand.
George went out there like he wanted to end it in one round.Ali threw 12 right hand leads thinking that Foreman might flop like Liston from the "Anchor Punch." But it was no dice.Ali would have to "Rope A Dope" George until he his gloves felt like sacks of flour. up In the 6th round Ali sensed that the time was near. In the 7th Ali hit George on the chin and you could yell "Timber!".George was headed downward and Aii could have clipped him but didn't He knew it as over.Even if George had gotten back up.It was over.So there's Archie Moore,the man who wanted to see Foreman in the worse way clobber Ali, putting George's robe back on his shoulders. What a joke.
It just proved that for that night Muhammad Ali was in control.The guru.He knew what he had left and what he needed to do to beat Foreman. As for George,Saddler,and Moore?Let's just say they all got schooled by someone who was way out of their league.
George Foreman
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I'd Rather Watch It On The Radio
I got hooked on fights by listening to them on the radio.Sure,they were also on the TV.Who would want to listen to the fight on the radio when you could watch it on TV?But for pure unabashed excitement listening to the blow by blow description of a fight on the wireless is unequaled in broadcasting.Since the listener can't see rthe fight he has ro keep abreast of the action by what the radio announcer is telling him. There can't be any pauses or lulls.Every punch hitting or missing,all the clinches,fouls,knockdowns,cuts opening up ,every movement from both boys has to be relayed to the fan sitting on the edge of his seat next to his radio in the parlor. Then when there's a telling blow you can hear the crowd roar rise from the arena and then the announcer has to step above the din and then he can insert the proper adjectives when someone is being counted out. It's tumultuous.Defening.It's unequaled in sports broadcasting.
But on the other hand watching a fight on TV can be often as bland as the flavor of a TV dinner.I know.You're sitting there watching it.You can see it for yourself. The announcers(and today it's usually 3 guys-the announcer,colorman ,and an ex pro thrown in for good measure)sit there and nothing much comes out of their mouths.What makes it worse is with all that time on their hands they often drift off topic or you can sense which fighter they're pulling for.
I'm going to rub a few people the wrong way with this one.I always thought the legendary Don Dunphy was one of the worst live TV fight announcers in the business. He knew very little about boxing even though he'd been attached to the sport since 1941 when he handled the radio broadcast of the first Louis /Conn fight. But to give him credit that was a radio call,a blow by blow effort; and he was brilliant. That's how he got his start.He could call everything in front him up in that ring.He was as good as they come.But when it came to calling the fight on live TV he was horrible. He'd show his favoritism (Ali could do no wrong in the ring)Sometimes he'd pretend he was a strategist.He couldn't keep his finger on the pulse of the action.He seemed lost and was guessing half the time. The Fight Of The Century of Dunphy,Burt Lancaster,and Archie Moore forming the triumvirate at ringside was a bigger let down than the fight.
But like a lot of things in life Dunphy was looked at as the best of the guys with the microphone. For me it's a case of not thinking things through.I guess it's hard to diss tradition.As far as I'm concerned it's as easy as turning off the sound of my television.
Don Dunphy doing the radio call of the Carmen Basilio /Johnny Saxton fight.Now you've got something
I got hooked on fights by listening to them on the radio.Sure,they were also on the TV.Who would want to listen to the fight on the radio when you could watch it on TV?But for pure unabashed excitement listening to the blow by blow description of a fight on the wireless is unequaled in broadcasting.Since the listener can't see rthe fight he has ro keep abreast of the action by what the radio announcer is telling him. There can't be any pauses or lulls.Every punch hitting or missing,all the clinches,fouls,knockdowns,cuts opening up ,every movement from both boys has to be relayed to the fan sitting on the edge of his seat next to his radio in the parlor. Then when there's a telling blow you can hear the crowd roar rise from the arena and then the announcer has to step above the din and then he can insert the proper adjectives when someone is being counted out. It's tumultuous.Defening.It's unequaled in sports broadcasting.
But on the other hand watching a fight on TV can be often as bland as the flavor of a TV dinner.I know.You're sitting there watching it.You can see it for yourself. The announcers(and today it's usually 3 guys-the announcer,colorman ,and an ex pro thrown in for good measure)sit there and nothing much comes out of their mouths.What makes it worse is with all that time on their hands they often drift off topic or you can sense which fighter they're pulling for.
I'm going to rub a few people the wrong way with this one.I always thought the legendary Don Dunphy was one of the worst live TV fight announcers in the business. He knew very little about boxing even though he'd been attached to the sport since 1941 when he handled the radio broadcast of the first Louis /Conn fight. But to give him credit that was a radio call,a blow by blow effort; and he was brilliant. That's how he got his start.He could call everything in front him up in that ring.He was as good as they come.But when it came to calling the fight on live TV he was horrible. He'd show his favoritism (Ali could do no wrong in the ring)Sometimes he'd pretend he was a strategist.He couldn't keep his finger on the pulse of the action.He seemed lost and was guessing half the time. The Fight Of The Century of Dunphy,Burt Lancaster,and Archie Moore forming the triumvirate at ringside was a bigger let down than the fight.
But like a lot of things in life Dunphy was looked at as the best of the guys with the microphone. For me it's a case of not thinking things through.I guess it's hard to diss tradition.As far as I'm concerned it's as easy as turning off the sound of my television.
Don Dunphy doing the radio call of the Carmen Basilio /Johnny Saxton fight.Now you've got something
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Mirror Image
I think it's always been in the back of my mind.What I hate in others I hate in myself.The loudmouth.The showoff.The know it all.The one who doesn't want to share the pedestal with anyone.Always has to have the last word.I can rationalize my mistakes but grant no immunity for others the make the same.
So lately,to use one excample, I've been bashing Angelo Dundee.At least when it comes to his worth as a boxing trainer.Does he fit into all the above criticisms of the previous paragaraph?No. But I'm sure I can come up with something ,at least in my take,that I can find myself pleading "no contest" if accused.
But I have to admit I never saw Angelo beating his chest for taking any credit making( and all those champions he worked with) the boxing legends they are today.
When Ali dwindled into the frail shell he became later I never saw Dundee get on the talk show circuit and boast that without his association The Greatest could have never called himself that.The flaws I see with Dundee are mine too I guess.So I criticize them thus condemning myself.
But the one obvious difference is that Angelo Dundee can say he was in Muhammad Ali's (et al) corner.I can just sit at my computer and be smug. But if Ali and Dundee have wound up in the same place I'm sure they're sitting down somewhere enjoying reminiscing .For myself I'd have to sit back and listen.I guess that wouldn't be so bad.Maybe Dundee wasn't so bad anyway. I'll try to mirror that thought in myself.
Angelo Dundee
I think it's always been in the back of my mind.What I hate in others I hate in myself.The loudmouth.The showoff.The know it all.The one who doesn't want to share the pedestal with anyone.Always has to have the last word.I can rationalize my mistakes but grant no immunity for others the make the same.
So lately,to use one excample, I've been bashing Angelo Dundee.At least when it comes to his worth as a boxing trainer.Does he fit into all the above criticisms of the previous paragaraph?No. But I'm sure I can come up with something ,at least in my take,that I can find myself pleading "no contest" if accused.
But I have to admit I never saw Angelo beating his chest for taking any credit making( and all those champions he worked with) the boxing legends they are today.
When Ali dwindled into the frail shell he became later I never saw Dundee get on the talk show circuit and boast that without his association The Greatest could have never called himself that.The flaws I see with Dundee are mine too I guess.So I criticize them thus condemning myself.
But the one obvious difference is that Angelo Dundee can say he was in Muhammad Ali's (et al) corner.I can just sit at my computer and be smug. But if Ali and Dundee have wound up in the same place I'm sure they're sitting down somewhere enjoying reminiscing .For myself I'd have to sit back and listen.I guess that wouldn't be so bad.Maybe Dundee wasn't so bad anyway. I'll try to mirror that thought in myself.
Angelo Dundee
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Boxing Redact
Like I said before-what I post today I won't read tomorrow. So today is still today and I was reading what I posted a few hours ago and I'm wondering what made me say that. I think I've put my finger on it. it was the Super Bowl game yesterday with the Covid ramifications. They tried with all their might to hype this game up.but you could get a sense that everyone was going through the motions.With the general mood of things being like walking around with constant headache it was hard to get all pumped up for this thing.
The game being in LA, Hollywood threw its weight into the affair but the superficiality showed through like a pair of falsies under a wet T shirt.It's this damned Covid. It diminishes everything. I wonder how many people took their dogs for a walk instead of watching the game. The blaring halftime show,the spiffy commercials,The Rock couldn't stir much up.
People don't want to invest much emotion into a game contested with athletes that have enough money to splurge on indulgences and charities and inflation is rising 7% a month and there's people out there that think their HOO's could inject them with microchips.
I stayed through the whole game only because I had money riding on it. I picked the Bengals and took the points so I won but if I hadn't have wagered anything I would have taken my dogs for a walk. Every time I blinked there was another commercial.
So now I'll get back to that post I put up a few hours ago. I take it all back. It was a sign of weakness. I want to be a prick. You can't help but being one anyway. Angelo,I'll cut you some slack. You were Italian but an overrated trainer. My old man took me to the fight in San Diego between Luis Rodriguez and Rafael Gutierrez.When Rodriguez pulled the fat out of the fire with a one punch knockout my old man walked with Dundee , arm around his shoulder, into the dressing room. I guess they were goombas.Every thing was jake.But then again there was no Covid back then.
Luis Rodriguez
Like I said before-what I post today I won't read tomorrow. So today is still today and I was reading what I posted a few hours ago and I'm wondering what made me say that. I think I've put my finger on it. it was the Super Bowl game yesterday with the Covid ramifications. They tried with all their might to hype this game up.but you could get a sense that everyone was going through the motions.With the general mood of things being like walking around with constant headache it was hard to get all pumped up for this thing.
The game being in LA, Hollywood threw its weight into the affair but the superficiality showed through like a pair of falsies under a wet T shirt.It's this damned Covid. It diminishes everything. I wonder how many people took their dogs for a walk instead of watching the game. The blaring halftime show,the spiffy commercials,The Rock couldn't stir much up.
People don't want to invest much emotion into a game contested with athletes that have enough money to splurge on indulgences and charities and inflation is rising 7% a month and there's people out there that think their HOO's could inject them with microchips.
I stayed through the whole game only because I had money riding on it. I picked the Bengals and took the points so I won but if I hadn't have wagered anything I would have taken my dogs for a walk. Every time I blinked there was another commercial.
So now I'll get back to that post I put up a few hours ago. I take it all back. It was a sign of weakness. I want to be a prick. You can't help but being one anyway. Angelo,I'll cut you some slack. You were Italian but an overrated trainer. My old man took me to the fight in San Diego between Luis Rodriguez and Rafael Gutierrez.When Rodriguez pulled the fat out of the fire with a one punch knockout my old man walked with Dundee , arm around his shoulder, into the dressing room. I guess they were goombas.Every thing was jake.But then again there was no Covid back then.
Luis Rodriguez
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I only spoke to Dundee once but he wasn't at all like he was on television-he came across as a very hard guy. For what it's worth he was still working with amateurs less than two weeks before he died-he was actually in the ring demonstrating moves.