Sonny Liston's age

[Caractacus]

check out this interview with Ike Turner published in 1985 (when he was 54 years old).
He was born in Clarksdale Mississippi in November 1931 and that is only 90 miles from Wynne Arkansas where Sonny Liston was born near in May 1932.(?)
-also Ike Turner relocated to St. Louis in 1954.

https://www.spin.com/2015/06/ikes-story ... -turner/2/

[Kalan]

If Liston was born in 1932 that would make him 38 when he died... I don't believe that... The 1940 census has him as 10 years old supposedly,,,, I don't believe that either... In the Martin and Wepner fights he had the appearance of a real old guy.

[vatech1983]

Hi age is difficult to calculate......Estimates at the tie of his death go form around 40 to age 55 yrs old.....a professionall who examind his teeth stated he was 55 yrs old......doctors who examined him in the early 1960 believe he was around 45 or so..........No real consenus exisits........... ....

[Caractacus]

his teeth ?Sonny Liston looked to have the best set of "choppers" of any HW Champion (IMOP).

[Perseus]

Census data wasn't available to the public during his lifetime and decades after the end of his life which allowed speculation to run rampant.

[Caractacus]

I think some here a while back posted some pages from the a 1930's census
that had Listons name on it
which then was recently re-leased,but the poster was "Vapourized" along with the scans
from the 1930's census

[p4p1]

viewtopic.php?t=153136

There is a bit of info here.

https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-boxin ... nny-liston

This link seems more or less to confirm the info from the thread. 1930 sounds like the most probably year IMO. Not listed in the 1930 census. Listed as 10 in the 1940 census.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

viewtopic.php?t=153136

There is a bit of info here.

https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-boxin ... nny-liston

This link seems more or less to confirm the info from the thread. 1930 sounds like the most probably year IMO. Not listed in the 1930 census. Listed as 10 in the 1940 census.

- Thanks. Consolidating the conversation that includes excellent work by Chuck and contributions by the inestimable Bob Mee is always going to bear fruit.

So, in one of the early recorded public contacts with Sonny in St Louis ca 1950 where he started his brief life of crime, he gives his birth year as 1928 where he'd have been 22-23. Given his mother was all over the map with about his birth date and the spare educational range of the entirety of his family, a shaky 3rd grade at best prob his mother, 1928 is likely the most accurate. These rural areas of the poorest sharecroppers in the south barely had passable rutted wagon roads with no signage. You can also bet the Klan didn't "cotton" to nosy Feds and may have just given him/her/it estimates in between wild goose chases to get rid of them.

For the last few decades now the media and politicians have been trotting out ye aulde 11 mil illegal Mexican figure that would be considered fraudulent in a court of law by now. You can also bet a significant number of illegals weren't included in the 2020 census because they don't want to be deported. The massive illegal influx in this Century only records the ones intercepted or otherwise rounded up, not the ones who made it through and have carved out their sustainable niche here that they lacked in Mexico or wherever they came from.

Sonny's birth date makes him 25 instead of 23 as boxrec lists his debut, and 35 for the Clay bout, not 33, not so terribly off. As far as judging age on looks, as a college freshman in West Texas there was a 19 yr old ranching family guy who was our beer go to guy. With dirty blondish rumpled hair, face already in half ruin coupled with a two day stubble, he looked a hard worn 40ish even though he had been a star HS track athlete and accomplished acoustic guitarist. And yeah, he drank his beer gratis.

When I hit 40, people routinely thought I was in my 20s because I bore no signs of typical aging male and that undercount has continued to this very day for me. In Sonny's case, he bore the terrible neglect of a broken childhood, "literal whippings" coupled with an obvious intelligence that allowed to eventually learn to read and write, so at age 35 he bore the painful impression of a 40 yr old Brutish ex-con in spite of being a well trained athlete.

Satchel Paige and ageless Archie Moore never knew their ages for most of their lives either, but no doubt could guestimate just using obvious references around them. Oh, and Bob Mee on the history of Bare Knucks is beyond compare for early boxing as well as a fun literary work

[JxhDel.]

Autopsy doctor said he had the physical condition of a 40 years old man.

[Bandog]

Clay/Ali haters bring this up often, to somehow denigrate the losses Liston suffered. If not that, it was the mob.

Liston, by the way, reminded me of George Foreman with his power and destructive nature, putting fear into his opponents.

[p4p1]

Clay/Ali haters bring this up often, to somehow denigrate the losses Liston suffered. If not that, it was the mob.

Liston, by the way, reminded me of George Foreman with his power and destructive nature, putting fear into his opponents.

Liston was a much better boxer though. He was probably unlucky in a couple of ways. That it took so long for him to get his shot, while he was probably the best HW from around 58 until his eventual loss to Ali in 64. He was also unlucky because he was champion while the greatest heavyweight of all time, who was a bad match up for him stylistically was on his way up.

After a quick look at the ring annual ratings from 58-68 I wouldn't favour anyone to beat Liston outside of Ali. He is unfortunately defined by his losses against Ali and never really got the chance he deserved to redeem himself after Ali's exile.

[evrenb]

So at some point in his life, Sonny Liston was unsure of whether he was 15 or 5.

[Ambling Alp II]

Always cracks me up with the age thing. You have to know within a year or two how old you are. And you can't fake it that much either.

Let say you really are 40 when you claim to be 32. If you are a famous person, people would come out of the woodwork to say that you can't be 32. Relatives, people that you grew up, went to school with etc.

[evrenb]

Always cracks me up with the age thing. You have to know within a year or two how old you are. And you can't fake it that much either.

Let say you really are 40 when you claim to be 32. If you are a famous person, people would come out of the woodwork to say that you can't be 32. Relatives, people that you grew up, went to school with etc.

True , he had enough brothers and sisters !!!!

[p4p1]

Without having been there to record the date ourselves we can really only look at the evidence on hand and take every rumour etc out of it. Sonny isn't present on the 1930 census but is on the 1940 census with a birthdate of 1930. I think we can really only conclude that the birth year was accurate, not necessarily the month. As pointed out in one of the articles I posted if Curtis' birthday was in October 1929 then realistically the earliest Sonny could have been born would be July 1930.

Autopsy doctor said he had the physical condition of a 40 years old man.

This seems to also line up with Listons year of birth being 1930.

Then I think it is worth looking at what Liston himself has said and see if there are any obvious motivations behind it.

When arrested in 1950 Liston said that he was 20, according to Wikipedia anyway. Perhaps sometime afterward he or his management decided it would be better for his boxing career prospects if he was two years younger. It makes a bit of sense IMO having your first and only loss when you're still young at 22 sounds better than at having been at 24, an age where most fighters would be hitting their prime.
My understanding is that it was more or less common/public knowledge that Liston had gone to prison in 1950. Based on that in 1950 Liston needs to be 18, he went to big boys prison on June 1st. I don't think it's just a coincidence that his new birthdate of May 8th 1932 makes him a couple weeks over 18 years old. Liston may have been illiterate but I don't believe he was unintelligent, he likely understood that being younger can help any feat sound more impressive. We have a history of boxing and focus on age to prove that.

Liston being a late starter is probably what helped him be so good even while in his mid to late 30s. We have seen it a million times when the young hot prospect who becomes champion at 21 years old is a washed up version of himself by the time they hit 30. Perhaps it is the wear and tear on the body, or maybe when talking about boxing specifically is it the head trauma, most likely its a combination of the two I guess.

[Caractacus]

I remember reading that someone in Liston's family (what remained of it in 1962)said he was actually born during a January.
(BTW May 8th is also the birthday of Robert Johnson, and Sonny loved listening to the Blues of course)

[vatech1983]

There is quite a bit of speculation that Liston was born in 1919 or 1920.........................

[Ambling Alp II]

All of it nonsense. Guess it makes a good story.

[p4p1]

All of it nonsense. Guess it makes a good story.

Boxing is famous for never letting the truth get in the way of one.

[Benny The Kid]

The 1940 U.S. Census reports have been released. Tobin Liston and his family come into view on a rented farm in backwater Smith Township on April 23rd of that year. They moved there from backwater Johnson Township sometime between 1930 and 1934. Tobin was sixty-seven and working on the farm sixty hours a week despite his advanced age. Helen was minding the chores in and around the rented shack and it’s easy to conjure up a picture of her wiping her hands on an apron as she greets the census taker. It would have been her who gave the names and ages of the children: Leo (“17”), Annie (“15”) and Alcora (“13,” called “Cabbie”), and there, between eleven-year-old Curtis and two-year-old Wesley, “Charles L” appears on record for the first time.

His age is given as “10” which means that 1930 is the likeliest year of his birth. However, Helen seemed prone to count the years from birth inclusively. A pointer is found in the 1930 census. On April 28th 1930, Curtis was listed at “6/12” months old (which strongly suggests that he was born in October 1929) and no child named Charles was listed in the Liston household. Ten years later, Curtis was indeed in his eleventh year as his mother claimed, though actually ten years old. Charles was probably in his tenth year, though nine years old.

If Curtis was born in October 1929, then Sonny’s default birthday of May 8th can be put to the wind, barring the unlikely event that he survived a premature delivery in a shotgun shack in a backward county with no doctor in sight. It is almost certain that he was born no earlier than July 1930.

As time stretched away from that census taker’s visit to the farm, Helen began to lose track. She was in her sixties when she said he was born in January (either the “18th”or the “8th”). Nick Tosches found that another sibling’s birth was registered as January 8th and supposed that she mixed them up. Late in life, Helen rummaged through her memory again and claimed he was born in 1927. She seems to have confused the year of Sonny’s birth with Alcora’s, which was 1927. But there’s another scrap of information, easily overlooked, that may end the mystery. Helen said that Sonny was born on July 22nd. Looking past her confusion about the year, we come face-to-face with a summer day that isn’t easily explained away and that happens to fall within the allowable time frame for a viable pregnancy.

—It fits. Perhaps a mother’s memory can be counted on after all.

A birth date emerges out of the thick, bleating air of the Mississippi Delta. Its jagged script, barely legible anymore, is carved on a resurrected tree: 7-22-1930, Charles L.

__________________

Photograph by John Vachon from Look Magazine, 2/25/1964.

[wouter]

The 1940 U.S. Census reports have been released. Tobin Liston and his family come into view on a rented farm in backwater Smith Township on April 23rd of that year. They moved there from backwater Johnson Township sometime between 1930 and 1934. Tobin was sixty-seven and working on the farm sixty hours a week despite his advanced age. Helen was minding the chores in and around the rented shack and it’s easy to conjure up a picture of her wiping her hands on an apron as she greets the census taker. It would have been her who gave the names and ages of the children: Leo (“17”), Annie (“15”) and Alcora (“13,” called “Cabbie”), and there, between eleven-year-old Curtis and two-year-old Wesley, “Charles L” appears on record for the first time.

His age is given as “10” which means that 1930 is the likeliest year of his birth. However, Helen seemed prone to count the years from birth inclusively. A pointer is found in the 1930 census. On April 28th 1930, Curtis was listed at “6/12” months old (which strongly suggests that he was born in October 1929) and no child named Charles was listed in the Liston household. Ten years later, Curtis was indeed in his eleventh year as his mother claimed, though actually ten years old. Charles was probably in his tenth year, though nine years old.

If Curtis was born in October 1929, then Sonny’s default birthday of May 8th can be put to the wind, barring the unlikely event that he survived a premature delivery in a shotgun shack in a backward county with no doctor in sight. It is almost certain that he was born no earlier than July 1930.

As time stretched away from that census taker’s visit to the farm, Helen began to lose track. She was in her sixties when she said he was born in January (either the “18th”or the “8th”). Nick Tosches found that another sibling’s birth was registered as January 8th and supposed that she mixed them up. Late in life, Helen rummaged through her memory again and claimed he was born in 1927. She seems to have confused the year of Sonny’s birth with Alcora’s, which was 1927. But there’s another scrap of information, easily overlooked, that may end the mystery. Helen said that Sonny was born on July 22nd. Looking past her confusion about the year, we come face-to-face with a summer day that isn’t easily explained away and that happens to fall within the allowable time frame for a viable pregnancy.

—It fits. Perhaps a mother’s memory can be counted on after all.

A birth date emerges out of the thick, bleating air of the Mississippi Delta. Its jagged script, barely legible anymore, is carved on a resurrected tree: 7-22-1930, Charles L.

__________________

Photograph by John Vachon from Look Magazine, 2/25/1964.

Well, you are kinda late to the party. The 1940 census has been out since over 10 years and that Liston was likely born in 1930 has been known ever since. The article you are quoting from was published soon after. The July 22 date that Springs Toledo mentions in it, however, is still no more than an educated guess.

[Caractacus]

May 8th was also legendary Blues singer Robert Johnson's Birthday.
( maybe that is why that day was picked ? )

[Benny The Kid]

The 1940 U.S. Census reports have been released. Tobin Liston and his family come into view on a rented farm in backwater Smith Township on April 23rd of that year. They moved there from backwater Johnson Township sometime between 1930 and 1934. Tobin was sixty-seven and working on the farm sixty hours a week despite his advanced age. Helen was minding the chores in and around the rented shack and it’s easy to conjure up a picture of her wiping her hands on an apron as she greets the census taker. It would have been her who gave the names and ages of the children: Leo (“17”), Annie (“15”) and Alcora (“13,” called “Cabbie”), and there, between eleven-year-old Curtis and two-year-old Wesley, “Charles L” appears on record for the first time.

His age is given as “10” which means that 1930 is the likeliest year of his birth. However, Helen seemed prone to count the years from birth inclusively. A pointer is found in the 1930 census. On April 28th 1930, Curtis was listed at “6/12” months old (which strongly suggests that he was born in October 1929) and no child named Charles was listed in the Liston household. Ten years later, Curtis was indeed in his eleventh year as his mother claimed, though actually ten years old. Charles was probably in his tenth year, though nine years old.

If Curtis was born in October 1929, then Sonny’s default birthday of May 8th can be put to the wind, barring the unlikely event that he survived a premature delivery in a shotgun shack in a backward county with no doctor in sight. It is almost certain that he was born no earlier than July 1930.

As time stretched away from that census taker’s visit to the farm, Helen began to lose track. She was in her sixties when she said he was born in January (either the “18th”or the “8th”). Nick Tosches found that another sibling’s birth was registered as January 8th and supposed that she mixed them up. Late in life, Helen rummaged through her memory again and claimed he was born in 1927. She seems to have confused the year of Sonny’s birth with Alcora’s, which was 1927. But there’s another scrap of information, easily overlooked, that may end the mystery. Helen said that Sonny was born on July 22nd. Looking past her confusion about the year, we come face-to-face with a summer day that isn’t easily explained away and that happens to fall within the allowable time frame for a viable pregnancy.

—It fits. Perhaps a mother’s memory can be counted on after all.

A birth date emerges out of the thick, bleating air of the Mississippi Delta. Its jagged script, barely legible anymore, is carved on a resurrected tree: 7-22-1930, Charles L.

__________________

Photograph by John Vachon from Look Magazine, 2/25/1964.

Well, you are kinda late to the party. The 1940 census has been out since over 10 years and that Liston was likely born in 1930 has been known ever since. The article you are quoting from was published soon after. The July 22 date that Springs Toledo mentions in it, however, is still no more than an educated guess.

Not everyone is of this belief. This guy seems to have a different option.

John McGlothlin
· Jun 5
NO one knows for sure how old Sonny was, and it is not a myth, because:

Arkansas pre-World War 1 did not even record births, and though they recorded those which were reported after 1914, reporting them was not mandatory, and Sonny’s family did not report any of their 25 births;
Sonny was born in a shack on a sharecropper’s plot with no medical help, and no official notation of his birth by a doctor or anyone else;
Sonny’s family recorded births by carving them onto a tree, which, by the time Sonny went back in the 1950’s to find out how old he was, had been cut down;
Sonny’s father did not trust the government, and was not known to cooperate with the census or any official; further, unlike his siblings, Sonny was never allowed to go to school at all, which was illegal, and nothing his father would advertise
Sonny’s father didn’t let him go to school, he worked him on the land from the time he could toddle, so there are no school records;
During the 1930 Census, he was working on the farm, didn’t go to school, had never seen a doctor or dentist, and so there was no record of him anywhere - his not appearing on the census certainly did not mean he did not exist; certain populations, especially Black and rural, are classically underreported, and further, the 1930 census itself was quite troubled
His 1950 arrest records had him at 22; his 1950 prison records had him at 23, the prison doctor estimated his age at mid-20’s;
His mother gave at least 3 different dates, including different months and different years for Sonny’s birth
He had to report a birth date for the boxing commission so he made one up out of thin air.
His sister contradicted all of those dates, saying instead that Sonny was born “the year after the soldiers came home” (WWI), which was mostly in 1919–1920, but as late as 1923.

You can believe what you want. I don’t know, and the point is, no one does. The jail records have him at 36 for the first Ali fight, his sister claimed he was 40, his mother said on two occasions he was 36, no one knows.

All this is documented in Paul Gallender’s book Sonny Liston - The Real Story Behind the Ali-Liston Fights

Claim's he was 40 at the the first fight with Muhammad Ali....he clearly isn't buying this theory.

[Ambling Alp II]

OK, I am just going to say what I have long said. Liston simply couldn't claim to be much younger and got away with it.
You can't be a famous person and just say that you are way younger than you are and get away with it.

People that grew up around him would have a rough idea. They would know if he was listed a lot younger than he really was. And they would have been coming out of the woodwork to say so. They didn't.

[klompton]

Everyone knows Liston was 172 when he turned pro. He was also 151 when he was born.