Which glorified British amateur ended up being the biggest underachiever in the professional ring

[Black Sam Bellamy]

Tony Jeffries.

[jimmystone]

Re: Frankie Gavin

To the best of my knowledge Anthony Farnell's gym is clean i.e. no PEDS. That is a good thing and Anthony is a very good trainer. Some other gyms and other trainers aren't, which is a shame but a reality.

With a clean trainer, Frankie did not have the gumption to realise himself and had nobody to grab him by the scruff of the neck and explain to him that in order to get to the top and maximise his potential he would need to take PEDs. He looked undersized and underpowered at his weight in part because of his ill-discipline with food but the fact he was a clean fighter made an even bigger negative impact IMO.

People don't like to hear it, I know, but to get to the top of boxing (with a few exceptions e.g. Bellew, and matchmaking helped him) you need to be at the very least topping up your testosterone. Look at the physiques of the top lads in Frankie's weight division.

All in my opinion, of course...

So what your saying is my alky mate who is ripped for some genetic reason is topping up on peds as well as Special Brew

No. Obviously I should have worded my final sentence better. The physique alone is clearly not the only indicator.

[Old bones Ian]

Re: Frankie Gavin

To the best of my knowledge Anthony Farnell's gym is clean i.e. no PEDS. That is a good thing and Anthony is a very good trainer. Some other gyms and other trainers aren't, which is a shame but a reality.

With a clean trainer, Frankie did not have the gumption to realise himself and had nobody to grab him by the scruff of the neck and explain to him that in order to get to the top and maximise his potential he would need to take PEDs. He looked undersized and underpowered at his weight in part because of his ill-discipline with food but the fact he was a clean fighter made an even bigger negative impact IMO.

People don't like to hear it, I know, but to get to the top of boxing (with a few exceptions e.g. Bellew, and matchmaking helped him) you need to be at the very least topping up your testosterone. Look at the physiques of the top lads in Frankie's weight division.

All in my opinion, of course...

So what your saying is my alky mate who is ripped for some genetic reason is topping up on peds as well as Special Brew

No. Obviously I should have worded my final sentence better. The physique alone is clearly not the only indicator.

I probably watch the sport with rose tinted glasses as I don't believe most are on PEDs , but I don't know anything about how gyms are run etc

[jimmystone]

Allow me to expand a little. Most people have a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio of 1:1. Analysing this ratio is how testers determine whether a boxer is cheating or not. If the first number is higher than the second number it is likely the boxer is taking steroids. However, because there are 'genetic freaks' who are natural outliers, VADA allow for a ratio of up to 4:1 to make sure everybody is covered for genetic anomalies.

What does this mean?

You will not fail a drug test unless your ratio is 5:1 or higher.

What does this mean?

You are (although it goes unsaid) allowed to take testosterone as long as you keep your ratio at 4:1 or lower.

This is easy to do but you need to have suppliers and administers you trust to get it right, perhaps a foreign doctor, perhaps a well educated (in the subject) trainer, etc....

If you are not doing this you will be at a huge disadvantage because most top fighters are doing this. Sad but true.

In other words, VADA testing is not a test of whether you take drugs or not. It is a test to make sure you don't take too many drugs.

[jimmystone]

p.s. Nevada allow for a ratio of 6:1

So if you are fighting in Nevada, and agree with your opponent to have Nevada drug testing only (not VADA) you are allowed to take even more drugs before you piss hot.


pps: 'allowed' is not the right word technically but it may as well be the word.

[JamesPhilips]

Allow me to expand a little. Most people have a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio of 1:1. Analysing this ratio is how testers determine whether a boxer is cheating or not. If the first number is higher than the second number it is likely the boxer is taking steroids. However, because there are 'genetic freaks' who are natural outliers, VADA allow for a ratio of up to 4:1 to make sure everybody is covered for genetic anomalies.

What does this mean?

You will not fail a drug test unless your ratio is 5:1 or higher.

What does this mean?

You are (although it goes unsaid) allowed to take testosterone as long as you keep your ratio at 4:1 or lower.

This is easy to do but you need to have suppliers and administers you trust to get it right, perhaps a foreign doctor, perhaps a well educated (in the subject) trainer, etc....

If you are not doing this you will be at a huge disadvantage because most top fighters are doing this. Sad but true.

In other words, VADA testing is not a test of whether you take drugs or not. It is a test to make sure you don't take too many drugs.

This is a very interesting post. I also know at you mean about Gavin. It was quite clear he was clean. Look at so many fighters physiques change when they go pro, esp as their career progresses. Gavin's body stayed childlike

[jimmystone]

It's also why the phrase "he's never failed a drug test" is used so frequently. You'll rarely get somebody saying "he's never taken PEDs".

That's one of the reasons I believe Bellew didn't take anything at all. He was vocal about the fact he'd never taken anything. He was also knocking fully grown, hard men out cold when he was a teenager, He's naturally a very testy bloke. Plus a few other reasons from knowing where he's trained and who with, etc. He should get more credit than he does for what he achieved.

[JamesPhilips]

It's also why the phrase "he's never failed a drug test" is used so frequently. You'll rarely get somebody saying "he's never taken PEDs".

That's one of the reasons I believe Bellew didn't take anything at all. He was vocal about the fact he'd never taken anything. He was also knocking fully grown, hard men out cold when he was a teenager, He's naturally a very testy bloke. Plus a few other reasons from knowing where he's trained and who with, etc. He should get more credit than he does for what he achieved.

He also had a 'natural' looking body. I mean there are always those genetic anomalies who are naturally muscled, but look at how the physiques have changed over the years. Almost every boxer looks ripped and has a 12 pack now.

[orbtastic]

Peter Richardson was a very good ama but just had eyebrows made of tissue paper in the pros. Which is a shame as he was a decent boxer.

Jeffries and his hands.

Terry spinks another highly decorated ama and tidy boxer but didn’t quite translate that beyond British level but he did have winstone to contend with.

Chris finnegan another fine boxer unfortunate to have to run into bob foster in an era of only two titles.

[Butti99]

Frankie Gavin
Fred evans
Tom stalker
Ogogo
Bradley Saunders
Jamie cox
Don Broadhurst
David price
Danny price
Audley Harrison
Micheal Maguire
There’s seems to be quite a lot

[Butti99]

Frankie Gavin
Fred evans
Tom stalker
Ogogo
Bradley Saunders
Jamie cox
Don Broadhurst
David price
Danny price
Audley Harrison
Micheal Maguire
There’s seems to be quite a lot

[Controversial]

Only because he's not been mentioned, he's not a huge star as some others but Mark Tibbs was a decent amateur and trainer but retired with a 22-2-1 pro record without ever fighting for a belt of any sort and losing to two fairly average pros.

[JamesPhilips]

Frankie Gavin
Fred evans
Tom stalker
Ogogo
Bradley Saunders
Jamie cox
Don Broadhurst
David price
Danny price
Audley Harrison
Micheal Maguire
There’s seems to be quite a lot

I would add for sure:
George Collins
Errol Christie (Rest in Peace )

[forcefraser]

Has to be Stalker. Only value he gave was providing comedy regarding his love for his nan.

I thought Luke Campbell would win a world title after the hype he was given. Good fighter but fell short at top level.

Who was his best win? Coyle or Perez?

That's nothing to shout about for a gold medalist

[Ruthless-RKO]

Has to be Stalker. Only value he gave was providing comedy regarding his love for his nan.

I thought Luke Campbell would win a world title after the hype he was given. Good fighter but fell short at top level.

Who was his best win? Coyle or Perez?

That's nothing to shout about for a gold medalist

Luke Campbell was in a very tough division as well.

Had he been pro around in early 2010's, he probably would have.. But it comes down to timing too.

So many boxers wouldn't even be world champions if there was only one belt per division.

[forcefraser]

Has to be Stalker. Only value he gave was providing comedy regarding his love for his nan.

I thought Luke Campbell would win a world title after the hype he was given. Good fighter but fell short at top level.

Who was his best win? Coyle or Perez?

That's nothing to shout about for a gold medalist

Luke Campbell was in a very tough division as well.

Had he been pro around in early 2010's, he probably would have.. But it comes down to timing too.

So many boxers wouldn't even be world champions if there was only one belt per division.

He was in a tough division, but his body of work as a pro in terms of wins is disappointing. His career was start/stop

I forgot about Big Audley. He was even more scared than Joshua is to get hit.

That snot smeared face after the Haye shellacking haunts me still.

[Ruthless-RKO]

He was in a tough division, but his body of work as a pro in terms of wins is disappointing. His career was start/stop

I forgot about Big Audley. He was even more scared than Joshua is to get hit.

That snot smeared face after the Haye shellacking haunts me still.

yeh, I hate looking at it, but can't stop looking

[Old bones Ian]

It's also why the phrase "he's never failed a drug test" is used so frequently. You'll rarely get somebody saying "he's never taken PEDs".

That's one of the reasons I believe Bellew didn't take anything at all. He was vocal about the fact he'd never taken anything. He was also knocking fully grown, hard men out cold when he was a teenager, He's naturally a very testy bloke. Plus a few other reasons from knowing where he's trained and who with, etc. He should get more credit than he does for what he achieved.

Thanks interesting stuff I'll read up some more on it

[JamesPhilips]

He was in a tough division, but his body of work as a pro in terms of wins is disappointing. His career was start/stop

I forgot about Big Audley. He was even more scared than Joshua is to get hit.

That snot smeared face after the Haye shellacking haunts me still.

yeh, I hate looking at it, but can't stop looking

I can’t remember that. Any YouTube?

[garethhop]

Andrew Selby was a crying shame imo.

[KiwiRider]

Has to be Stalker. Only value he gave was providing comedy regarding his love for his nan.

I thought Luke Campbell would win a world title after the hype he was given. Good fighter but fell short at top level.

Who was his best win? Coyle or Perez?

That's nothing to shout about for a gold medalist

Luke Campbell was in a very tough division as well.

Had he been pro around in early 2010's, he probably would have.. But it comes down to timing too.

So many boxers wouldn't even be world champions if there was only one belt per division.

I was 100% sure Luke would gain a title. He could hit, move and had that screw body shot that seemed to drop guys no matter how hard their heads were. He also had a good engine.
Terrific amateur career. Signs up with Matchroom, gets a good team around him, and plenty of opportunities - then falls short every time.
I am guessing he made a good bit of money in comparison to his success, which is nice. But his pro career trinkets are the commonwealth, and a WBO silver or something. No British, and no world title.
Gutsy guy who I believe gave it everything and yet still came up short.

[Ruthless-RKO]

He was in a tough division, but his body of work as a pro in terms of wins is disappointing. His career was start/stop

I forgot about Big Audley. He was even more scared than Joshua is to get hit.

That snot smeared face after the Haye shellacking haunts me still.

yeh, I hate looking at it, but can't stop looking

I can’t remember that. Any YouTube?

The whole fights on YouTube

[polecateddy]

Allow me to expand a little. Most people have a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio of 1:1. Analysing this ratio is how testers determine whether a boxer is cheating or not. If the first number is higher than the second number it is likely the boxer is taking steroids. However, because there are 'genetic freaks' who are natural outliers, VADA allow for a ratio of up to 4:1 to make sure everybody is covered for genetic anomalies.

What does this mean?

You will not fail a drug test unless your ratio is 5:1 or higher.

What does this mean?

You are (although it goes unsaid) allowed to take testosterone as long as you keep your ratio at 4:1 or lower.

This is easy to do but you need to have suppliers and administers you trust to get it right, perhaps a foreign doctor, perhaps a well educated (in the subject) trainer, etc....

If you are not doing this you will be at a huge disadvantage because most top fighters are doing this. Sad but true.

In other words, VADA testing is not a test of whether you take drugs or not. It is a test to make sure you don't take too many drugs.

Those ratios are quite significant. Often with 'natural bodybuilding' contests they will have these similar allowance for 6:1 testosterone levels, and it's becomes open season on PED abuse. I'm not sure if USADA also push 4:1 now too, which meant I think a lot of UFC fighters bodies melted overnight almost without their normal test - Belfort and others.

[jimmystone]

Allow me to expand a little. Most people have a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio of 1:1. Analysing this ratio is how testers determine whether a boxer is cheating or not. If the first number is higher than the second number it is likely the boxer is taking steroids. However, because there are 'genetic freaks' who are natural outliers, VADA allow for a ratio of up to 4:1 to make sure everybody is covered for genetic anomalies.

What does this mean?

You will not fail a drug test unless your ratio is 5:1 or higher.

What does this mean?

You are (although it goes unsaid) allowed to take testosterone as long as you keep your ratio at 4:1 or lower.

This is easy to do but you need to have suppliers and administers you trust to get it right, perhaps a foreign doctor, perhaps a well educated (in the subject) trainer, etc....

If you are not doing this you will be at a huge disadvantage because most top fighters are doing this. Sad but true.

In other words, VADA testing is not a test of whether you take drugs or not. It is a test to make sure you don't take too many drugs.

Those ratios are quite significant. Often with 'natural bodybuilding' contests they will have these similar allowance for 6:1 testosterone levels, and it's becomes open season on PED abuse. I'm not sure if USADA also push 4:1 now too, which meant I think a lot of UFC fighters bodies melted overnight almost without their normal test - Belfort and others.

Yes, USADA is 4:1 too. Their ratios are the same as WADA's. You are right about UFC, some of those lads were bang at it, it was a free for all. Dropping back to 4:1 made a big difference. They were still up on (almost all) clean athletes though.

[Old bones Ian]

Allow me to expand a little. Most people have a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio of 1:1. Analysing this ratio is how testers determine whether a boxer is cheating or not. If the first number is higher than the second number it is likely the boxer is taking steroids. However, because there are 'genetic freaks' who are natural outliers, VADA allow for a ratio of up to 4:1 to make sure everybody is covered for genetic anomalies.

What does this mean?

You will not fail a drug test unless your ratio is 5:1 or higher.

What does this mean?

You are (although it goes unsaid) allowed to take testosterone as long as you keep your ratio at 4:1 or lower.

This is easy to do but you need to have suppliers and administers you trust to get it right, perhaps a foreign doctor, perhaps a well educated (in the subject) trainer, etc....

If you are not doing this you will be at a huge disadvantage because most top fighters are doing this. Sad but true.

In other words, VADA testing is not a test of whether you take drugs or not. It is a test to make sure you don't take too many drugs.

Those ratios are quite significant. Often with 'natural bodybuilding' contests they will have these similar allowance for 6:1 testosterone levels, and it's becomes open season on PED abuse. I'm not sure if USADA also push 4:1 now too, which meant I think a lot of UFC fighters bodies melted overnight almost without their normal test - Belfort and others.

Yes, USADA is 4:1 too. Their ratios are the same as WADA's. You are right about UFC, some of those lads were bang at it, it was a free for all. Dropping back to 4:1 made a big difference. They were still up on (almost all) clean athletes though.

Is this suppliments legal or under the counter?