margaret thatcher wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 02:22
holyfield lost to every good opponent he faced in his 40s, in several cases hardly winning a round, many of his opponents during this time were already in their 40s themselves
Had he hit his 40's by the time he fought Rahman? I don't remember.
obviously he was great in his prime, but in his 40s he was hardly showing up the younger generation. his fights vs byrd, toney, and ibgraimov are sad to watch if anything. same goes for sherman williams rocking him around, it was good that fight was called early on a cut
p4p1 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 23:27
Is Foreman's success in the late 80's and early 90s proof that the quality of boxers declined from the 70s? He didn't beat everyone nor did he fight everyone but he was one of the top guys around. I'm not so sure that version of him would be in the 70s though.
Does this then show how much it declined into the 2000s with how successful and competitive Holyfield was able to be into his 40s?
He was fighting once a month wasn’t he..
Which I guess he needed, but then had a meaningful fight once a while too.. climb the rankings.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 02:22
holyfield lost to every good opponent he faced in his 40s, in several cases hardly winning a round, many of his opponents during this time were already in their 40s themselves
Had he hit his 40's by the time he fought Rahman? I don't remember.
bjornborgbook wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 18:41
The Moorer fight looked suspect. The sudden drop like he got shot and the whole reaction after looked contrived. Also the fact that Moorer did not demand an immediate rematch and was later rewarded with another IBF shot. No disrespect to Foreman, he was a big moneymaker and Moorer was a boring dud as champ. Wouldn't be shocked if Moorer sold the belts and got a percentage of future Foreman title fights like the Louis-Braddock arrangement.
The problem with believing Moorer took a dive is trying to explain why he tried to take Foreman's head off the first nine rounds.
on replay you see how cleanly it lands on the point of the chin and swivels moorer's head. it did look a weird ko live and like the shot had little behind it, but it's a much better punch than it appears initially in real time. keep in mind youre also dealing with an atg puncher vs a softer chinned guy. legit ko.
moorer got ko'd in a similar way vs tua, in a fight he'd have no reason to throw, so i think it's just the way he reacts to things
bjornborgbook wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 18:41
The Moorer fight looked suspect. The sudden drop like he got shot and the whole reaction after looked contrived. Also the fact that Moorer did not demand an immediate rematch and was later rewarded with another IBF shot. No disrespect to Foreman, he was a big moneymaker and Moorer was a boring dud as champ. Wouldn't be shocked if Moorer sold the belts and got a percentage of future Foreman title fights like the Louis-Braddock arrangement.
The problem with believing Moorer took a dive is trying to explain why he tried to take Foreman's head off the first nine rounds.
This guy's a sad-sack fantasist, for god's sake don't treat his sh1t like it's worth replying to
bjornborgbook wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 18:41
The Moorer fight looked suspect. The sudden drop like he got shot and the whole reaction after looked contrived. Also the fact that Moorer did not demand an immediate rematch and was later rewarded with another IBF shot. No disrespect to Foreman, he was a big moneymaker and Moorer was a boring dud as champ. Wouldn't be shocked if Moorer sold the belts and got a percentage of future Foreman title fights like the Louis-Braddock arrangement.
The problem with believing Moorer took a dive is trying to explain why he tried to take Foreman's head off the first nine rounds.
bjornborgbook wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 18:41
The Moorer fight looked suspect. The sudden drop like he got shot and the whole reaction after looked contrived. Also the fact that Moorer did not demand an immediate rematch and was later rewarded with another IBF shot. No disrespect to Foreman, he was a big moneymaker and Moorer was a boring dud as champ. Wouldn't be shocked if Moorer sold the belts and got a percentage of future Foreman title fights like the Louis-Braddock arrangement.
The problem with believing Moorer took a dive is trying to explain why he tried to take Foreman's head off the first nine rounds.
Looked like pushed punches, like AJ vs Usyk. Why didn't Moorer demand immediate rematch?
Foreman was down on all scorecards heading into the 8th.
how is that possible, Foreman threw and landed most of the punches.
Facts!
Zach Clayton 68-66 | Nourridine Adalla 70-67 | James Taylor 69-66
Scorecards in rounds: Zach Clayton 4-2-1 Ali, Nourridine Adalla 3-0-4 Ali, and James Taylor 4-1-2 Ali
Have to watch it again for the 20th time. Looked like Foreman was scoring more and Ali was giving away rounds sitting on the ropes. Maybe it was rigged for Ali :0
how is that possible, Foreman threw and landed most of the punches.
Facts!
Zach Clayton 68-66 | Nourridine Adalla 70-67 | James Taylor 69-66
Scorecards in rounds: Zach Clayton 4-2-1 Ali, Nourridine Adalla 3-0-4 Ali, and James Taylor 4-1-2 Ali
Have to watch it again for the 20th time. Looked like Foreman was scoring more and Ali was giving away rounds sitting on the ropes. Maybe it was rigged for Ali :0
p4p1 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 23:27
Is Foreman's success in the late 80's and early 90s proof that the quality of boxers declined from the 70s? He didn't beat everyone nor did he fight everyone but he was one of the top guys around. I'm not so sure that version of him would be in the 70s though.
Does this then show how much it declined into the 2000s with how successful and competitive Holyfield was able to be into his 40s?
It's not the end all be all, but it is a strong indication that the division was not as good in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Foreman was clearly way past his best yet had a lot of success. Larry Holmes as well. Even Joe Bugner had some surprising wins in the late 1980s.
The heavyweight division was pretty good in the early 1990s. It just wasn't as good as the 1970s.
Holyfield was 39 when he beat Rahman. He obviously was past his best and continued to slide as he got older. He was actually 46 when he hosed against Valuev. Klitschko continued to be the best when he was in his mid-late 30s; yet another indication of how the heavyweight division has been.
Again, one way past it doing so well is not the all be all. But it's a strong indication.
bjornborgbook wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 18:41
The Moorer fight looked suspect. The sudden drop like he got shot and the whole reaction after looked contrived. Also the fact that Moorer did not demand an immediate rematch and was later rewarded with another IBF shot. No disrespect to Foreman, he was a big moneymaker and Moorer was a boring dud as champ. Wouldn't be shocked if Moorer sold the belts and got a percentage of future Foreman title fights like the Louis-Braddock arrangement.
The problem with believing Moorer took a dive is trying to explain why he tried to take Foreman's head off the first nine rounds.
Looked like pushed punches, like AJ vs Usyk. Why didn't Moorer demand immediate rematch?
Judging by the soft choice of comeback opponent Team Moorer didn't fancy it. He did sign for a rematch with Foreman in 1996 but it fell through.
"Pushed punches"? Either you've never seen the first nine rounds or you're an idiot.
bjornborgbook wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 18:41
The Moorer fight looked suspect. The sudden drop like he got shot and the whole reaction after looked contrived. Also the fact that Moorer did not demand an immediate rematch and was later rewarded with another IBF shot. No disrespect to Foreman, he was a big moneymaker and Moorer was a boring dud as champ. Wouldn't be shocked if Moorer sold the belts and got a percentage of future Foreman title fights like the Louis-Braddock arrangement.
The problem with believing Moorer took a dive is trying to explain why he tried to take Foreman's head off the first nine rounds.
Looked like pushed punches, like AJ vs Usyk. Why didn't Moorer demand immediate rematch?
He could've asked for one. I doubt he would've gotten one.
The problem with believing Moorer took a dive is trying to explain why he tried to take Foreman's head off the first nine rounds.
Looked like pushed punches, like AJ vs Usyk. Why didn't Moorer demand immediate rematch?
He could've asked for one. I doubt he would've gotten one.
What kind of champion loses the title to a 45 year old and then does not demand an immediate rematch? I'd suggest one that sold the belt for the establishment.
p4p1 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 23:27
Is Foreman's success in the late 80's and early 90s proof that the quality of boxers declined from the 70s? He didn't beat everyone nor did he fight everyone but he was one of the top guys around. I'm not so sure that version of him would be in the 70s though.
Does this then show how much it declined into the 2000s with how successful and competitive Holyfield was able to be into his 40s?
It's not the end all be all, but it is a strong indication that the division was not as good in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Foreman was clearly way past his best yet had a lot of success. Larry Holmes as well. Even Joe Bugner had some surprising wins in the late 1980s.
The heavyweight division was pretty good in the early 1990s. It just wasn't as good as the 1970s.
Holyfield was 39 when he beat Rahman. He obviously was past his best and continued to slide as he got older. He was actually 46 when he hosed against Valuev. Klitschko continued to be the best when he was in his mid-late 30s; yet another indication of how the heavyweight division has been.
Again, one way past it doing so well is not the all be all. But it's a strong indication.
The heavyweight division was only mediocre in the early 90s. Tyson was in a prison. Holy and Bowe were only good sellers they did not transcend the sport. Lennox was being frozen out by the establishment. Moorer had no selling power or charisma. I think Holyfield sold the belt to Moorer (fake heart problems was the alibi) to set up Foreman to KO Moorer (Holy vs Foreman 2 was a tough sell). Foreman redux came along at the right time, the establishment needed a star. So they manufacted Big George and milked him as long as they could. Tyson redux after jail was protected by King/showtime/mgmgrand. The Arum HBO side of the establishment needed a star to compete with Tyson and it was Foreman. My theory. Feel free to reject )
bjornborgbook wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 08:54
Looked like pushed punches, like AJ vs Usyk. Why didn't Moorer demand immediate rematch?
He could've asked for one. I doubt he would've gotten one.
What kind of champion loses the title to a 45 year old and then does not demand an immediate rematch? I'd suggest one that sold the belt for the establishment.
Unless you got a Rematch clause in the contract you can demand all you want, it don't mean you're gonna f*cking get it.
There obviously wasn't a rematch clause in the contract, and Foreman who won with a great shot after taking 9 rounds of an ass kicking, wasn't eager to get beat the f*ck up again while hoping for a perfect shot I'm sure.
Moorer wouldn't have hesitated for the rematch, but it wasn't up to him.
He could've asked for one. I doubt he would've gotten one.
What kind of champion loses the title to a 45 year old and then does not demand an immediate rematch? I'd suggest one that sold the belt for the establishment.
Unless you got a Rematch clause in the contract you can demand all you want, it don't mean you're gonna f*cking get it.
There obviously wasn't a rematch clause in the contract, and Foreman who won with a great shot after taking 9 rounds of an ass kicking, wasn't eager to get beat the f*ck up again while hoping for a perfect shot I'm sure.
Moorer wouldn't have hesitated for the rematch, but it wasn't up to him.
It appears he didn't want the rematch to avenge the terrible loss because he sold the belts to the establishment. A real champion who loses his title, the first thing he wants is revenge redemption to regain his value and leverage. To not want that smells of corruption, it's just not how a true champion acts.
Bowe wanted the Holy rematch. Ali wanted the Frazier rematch. Frazier wanted the Foreman rematch. Holmes wanted the Spinks rematch. Wladimir wanted the Fury rematch. Because those were real fights. Hagler and Leonard didn't want the Leonard rematches - those fights were suspect.
Moorer was satisfied to get knocked out (or dive) for a 45 year old??? Cmon bro, you've got to be effing kidding.
