Was Sugar Ray Leonard better than Roberto Duran?

[elmersalsa]

Was Sugar Ray Leonard better than Roberto Duran? Your view.

[Wee Tommy]

Was Sugar Ray Leonard better than Roberto Duran? Your view.

Yes but it’s very very close. Both are ATGs, obviously. Head to head at their very best Roberto won, but he got beaten soundly by Benitez, Hearns and Laing as well as quitting the Leonard rematch. Leonard was good enough to put Hearns away, something Duran would never have been able to do. At any weight.

Duran is a top 2/3 Lightweight at worst and Ray is Top 2/3 Welterweight.

The worst thing for Duran here is, had he kept himself in shape like Leonard did, he might have been able to put in a better performance in the rematch and not get beaten by Laing and Benitez. He didn’t though. So I have to go on what did happen. He could be outboxed by slick fighters.

As a young boxer Duran was my favourite fighter and I tried to copy (unsuccessfully) his style. As I’ve grown older I’ve come to appreciate just how incredibly good Ray Leonard was too. His speed and footwork, as well as his underrated punching power. My favourite fights to watch were Duran Vs DeJesus 2 and Duran vs Leonard 1. I also enjoyed Durans fights with Marvellous Marvin and Iran Barkley, although I felt he was very lucky to pull it off Vs Barkley in a hard fought, close battle.

Very difficult to separate these two legends.

[p4p1]

Was Sugar Ray Leonard better than Roberto Duran? Your view.

Yes but it’s very very close. Both are ATGs, obviously. Head to head at their very best Roberto won, but he got beaten soundly by Benitez, Hearns and Laing as well as quitting the Leonard rematch. Leonard was good enough to put Hearns away, something Duran would never have been able to do. At any weight.

Duran is a top 2/3 Lightweight at worst and Ray is Top 2/3 Welterweight.

The worst thing for Duran here is, had he kept himself in shape like Leonard did, he might have been able to put in a better performance in the rematch and not get beaten by Laing and Benitez. He didn’t though. So I have to go on what did happen. He could be outboxed by slick fighters.

As a young boxer Duran was my favourite fighter and I tried to copy (unsuccessfully) his style. As I’ve grown older I’ve come to appreciate just how incredibly good Ray Leonard was too. His speed and footwork, as well as his underrated punching power. My favourite fights to watch were Duran Vs DeJesus 2 and Duran vs Leonard 1. I also enjoyed Durans fights with Marvellous Marvin and Iran Barkley, although I felt he was very lucky to pull it off Vs Barkley in a hard fought, close battle.

Very difficult to separate these two legends.

It probably comes down to personal taste. Benitez and Hearns may have beaten Duran soundly but both men (Hearns especially) we naturally a fair bit bigger than Duran. Both were in their prime and at their (arguably) best weight while Duran was past 30, past his best and 20lbs over his best weight.

[margaret thatcher]

x2 on yes but close

[Wee Tommy]

Was Sugar Ray Leonard better than Roberto Duran? Your view.

Yes but it’s very very close. Both are ATGs, obviously. Head to head at their very best Roberto won, but he got beaten soundly by Benitez, Hearns and Laing as well as quitting the Leonard rematch. Leonard was good enough to put Hearns away, something Duran would never have been able to do. At any weight.

Duran is a top 2/3 Lightweight at worst and Ray is Top 2/3 Welterweight.

The worst thing for Duran here is, had he kept himself in shape like Leonard did, he might have been able to put in a better performance in the rematch and not get beaten by Laing and Benitez. He didn’t though. So I have to go on what did happen. He could be outboxed by slick fighters.

As a young boxer Duran was my favourite fighter and I tried to copy (unsuccessfully) his style. As I’ve grown older I’ve come to appreciate just how incredibly good Ray Leonard was too. His speed and footwork, as well as his underrated punching power. My favourite fights to watch were Duran Vs DeJesus 2 and Duran vs Leonard 1. I also enjoyed Durans fights with Marvellous Marvin and Iran Barkley, although I felt he was very lucky to pull it off Vs Barkley in a hard fought, close battle.

Very difficult to separate these two legends.

It probably comes down to personal taste. Benitez and Hearns may have beaten Duran soundly but both men (Hearns especially) we naturally a fair bit bigger than Duran. Both were in their prime and at their (arguably) best weight while Duran was past 30, past his best and 20lbs over his best weight.

I definitely wouldn’t argue either way mate. I’d have said Duran 20 years ago.

[rob h]

Both legends and I agree it's down to personal taste. Durans career, longevity, story and personality just keeps him in a league of his own - for me anyway.

[Ezzard]

Going to trigger a lot of posters...

[elmersalsa]

Was Sugar Ray Leonard better than Roberto Duran? Your view.

Yes but it’s very very close. Both are ATGs, obviously. Head to head at their very best Roberto won, but he got beaten soundly by Benitez, Hearns and Laing as well as quitting the Leonard rematch. Leonard was good enough to put Hearns away, something Duran would never have been able to do. At any weight.

Duran is a top 2/3 Lightweight at worst and Ray is Top 2/3 Welterweight.

The worst thing for Duran here is, had he kept himself in shape like Leonard did, he might have been able to put in a better performance in the rematch and not get beaten by Laing and Benitez. He didn’t though. So I have to go on what did happen. He could be outboxed by slick fighters.

As a young boxer Duran was my favourite fighter and I tried to copy (unsuccessfully) his style. As I’ve grown older I’ve come to appreciate just how incredibly good Ray Leonard was too. His speed and footwork, as well as his underrated punching power. My favourite fights to watch were Duran Vs DeJesus 2 and Duran vs Leonard 1. I also enjoyed Durans fights with Marvellous Marvin and Iran Barkley, although I felt he was very lucky to pull it off Vs Barkley in a hard fought, close battle.

Very difficult to separate these two legends.

It probably comes down to personal taste. Benitez and Hearns may have beaten Duran soundly but both men (Hearns especially) we naturally a fair bit bigger than Duran. Both were in their prime and at their (arguably) best weight while Duran was past 30, past his best and 20lbs over his best weight.

[The Docker]

Was Sugar Ray Leonard better than Roberto Duran? Your view.

For me a definitive yes. Problem I have with Roberto is, his early stuff is a bit too obscure, not his fault but racked up lots of early victories that are hard to corroborate. Albeit even if they were mind blowing, think Leonard could acclimatise to counter all the boxing styles whereas Duran didnt have the same level of ring craft.

[goose 5]

To me, 135 pound Duran was better pound for pound than 147 pound Leonard. I rate them the best 2 fighters of the last 50 years.

[Counter-puncher]

. My favourite fights to watch were Duran Vs DeJesus 2 .

Hey mate I’m late to this thread, but this point in particular caught my eye, I have always held this one in my mind’s eye as THE example of the single most terrifying man, at any weight in any era, I’ve ever seen.

I’d literally rather face any man ever than Duran right there. The skill and explosiveness combined- although he got more skilful later in his career, I think this fight was his peak as far as that explosive physicality he showed- are just awesome to me. How he can be letting such hugely leveraged shots go, so fast, so accurate, so well timed and placed and *conceived*, god, it seems to me the closest equivalent to watching a video of a leopard or lion on the kill. I’d be surprised, possibly very surprised, if I ever see anything like him, in that sense.

[Counter-puncher]

I never use awesome in a flippant way, of course. I mean it literally awes me like mountain vistas and Mach 3 aircraft. Ali’s physicality also awes me, for example (just doesn’t terrify me)

[Wee Tommy]

I never use awesome in a flippant way, of course. I mean it literally awes me like mountain vistas and Mach 3 aircraft. Ali’s physicality also awes me, for example (just doesn’t terrify me)

I must have watched that fight 40 times growing up. I’d always see something new each time, from both men actually. I always felt DeJesus was a great fighter also because he really brought that animal out in Duran. In the end he just wilted under the pressure and couldn’t take anymore.

[bwu]

This is more difficult than it should be. They are both all time greats (obviously). It seems to me that Duran rates higher at lightweight than Leonard does at welterweight (and those were their peak divisions).

I am more impressed by Duran’s accomplishments. He is arguably the greatest ever in a division (lightweight) and I wouldn’t say that about Sugar Ray. He had more successful title defenses than Leonard. His career was much longer and I believe he fought at the world class level for much longer.

Head to head though, Leonard is better. He is 2-1 (1KO) over Duran. He made Robert quit in the second fight. Leonard broke the man. I was never a Sugar Ray fan, but I have to give him his due.

[Ambling Alp II]

This is more difficult than it should be. They are both all time greats (obviously). It seems to me that Duran rates higher at lightweight than Leonard does at welterweight (and those were their peak divisions).

I am more impressed by Duran’s accomplishments. He is arguably the greatest ever in a division (lightweight) and I wouldn’t say that about Sugar Ray. He had more successful title defenses than Leonard. His career was much longer and I believe he fought at the world class level for much longer.

Head to head though, Leonard is better. He is 2-1 (1KO) over Duran. He made Robert quit in the second fight. Leonard broke the man. I was never a Sugar Ray fan, but I have to give him his due.

OK, against my better judgement, I guess I get into this.
First, throw out the third Leonard-Duran fight. It's not very relevant.
Head to head they were 1-1. Lets give Duran as much credit for winning a` 15 round decision as Leonard for winning an 8 round TKO.
So we are dead even so far. One win for Duran. One win for Leonard. Now look at everything else.

Duran is arguably the greatest in the lightweight division. (Though you could have behind Gans and Benny Leonard) However the best fighter from one weight division isn't automatically better than the 2nd best from another.
The best welter was Robinson. He was arguably the best of any weight. Certainly better than any lightweight.

Who did Duran beat at lightweight that was remotely close to Leonard? DeJesus? Buchanan? Not even remotely close.

Leonard has wins over Benitez and Hearns. Much better than any wins Duran ever had.

Duran does have the longevity edge. To which I say, so what?

In any other sport, nobody would care.
In baseball, if a one guy hit 500 homeruns in 15 years and another hit 100 in 25, nobody would be citing the longevity advantage.
In soccer, it one guy scored a lot more goals in less time than another guy, he would be probably be considered better.
Who cares if Duran beat scores of guys that Leonard would never have lost to?
Leonard had more huge wins from 1979-1981 than Duran did in his entire career.

Leonard's beat Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler. They were clearly better than DeJesus, Buchanan and Palomino.
Oh and Duran lost to DeJesus. Leonard never had a loss like that.
Leonard was the better fighter.
Some people think Leonard was better. Some think Duran was better. If we were calling them fighter A and B and looking at their careers,, almost everyone would be favoring Leonard.

[bwu]

Candidly, I'm going to seem all over the place when I discuss this, but I think it will all tie together at the end.

Fair's fair: We don't throw out one of the fights. They aren't 1-1. It's 2-1. As I've expressed in at least one other thread, I think it's extremely relevant that for nine years we heard how much Duran wanted Leonard back in the ring. Then when he got Sugar Ray, he did nothing with him. As a side note, has anybody noted that this was the last fight Leonard ever won?

I agree that being the best fighter in a division doesn't necessarily make that boxer greater than someone in another division. The Leonard wins you mentioned were undeniably magnificent. But being number one in weight class is such a unique honor that it shades many other worthy accomplishments.

I couldn't disagree more with your disregard for the longevity issue. There are plenty of sports where a player's longevity is an integral part of their overall legacy: Tom Brady in American football; Jimmy Connors in tennis; Nolan Ryan in baseball. To me it's enormously impressive that Duran started when he was 16 and lasted until he was 50. He beat Ernesto Marcel when he was a teenager and went 1-1 with Jorge Castro when he was 45. Yes, I think that beating champions 27 years apart carries a lot of weight.

In evaluating head-to-head competition, I sometimes think Sugar Ray doesn't get enough credit for the second and third fights. But when all is said and done, I believe Duran ever so slightly edges Leonard on the pound-for-pound list. I absolutely respect the opinion of anyone who thinks otherwise.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think we have to be consistent in how we rate fighters. (Not saying you in particular aren't). We have to use the same criteria all of the time, whether we like the guys or not. Which is is one of the main problems I have with some people.

- I don't count the 3rd Duran-Leonard fight because Duran was way past his best. Obviously Leonard was to a lesser degree.
I never count fights where one guy is way past it. It's not only unfair to the guy who lost, but actually to other opponents as well. For example, are we really going to give Trevor Berbick the same as Ken Norton credit for beat Ali? Does Hector Camacho deserve as much credit for beating Leonard as Duran? We could list dozens of examples.
If we count everything, then we have to count all of Duran's losses too.

- Here is my problem with longevity - Some guys just continue in the sport for a long time when the really aren't that good anymore, padding their stats. Some guys don't.

Jimmy Connors was a great tennis layer. Bjorn Borg was even greater. They played at the same time for several years. Borg basically quit when he was 25. Connors continued playing until he was 40. Borg clearly was the better player when he retired, and most people rate Borg higher.
I think Nolan Ryan was overrated for other reasons, so I will pick someone else. Sandy Koufax won less than 200. Tommy John and Jim Kaat played a lot longer and won more. Nobody thinks they were better than Koufax.
Vinnie Testaverde and Kerry Collins played a lot longer than Roger Staubach. Nobody think they were better than Staubach.

In boxing, Primo Carnera had a longer career than Joe Frazier. Won more than 2x as many fights as Frazier. Nobody thinks Carnera was anywhere near as good as Frazier. In fact, I have never heard anyone talk about Frazier's relatively short career. Leonard won more fights than Frazier.

Take a look at the opponents Duran beat. Obviously he beat some good fighters. Also beat dozens of tomato cans in
meaningless fights. Anyone who says they heard of most of them are lying. He beat a ton of stiffs throughout his career.

Would beating 20, 20, 40 more non-names Leonard made any better? No.

Leonard beat Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler. Duran didn't.

[Wee Tommy]

That’s what it comes down to for me, Leonard’s wins. It’s razor thin because of Durans incredible performance against Ray in the first fight. If they hadn’t ever fought and had the exact same records they had just minus each other it would be clear for Ray.

Roberto could never beat Hearns. Ever. He done great against a somewhat tentative Hagler but it was clearer for me than the scorecards. Benitez clearly outboxed him.

[p4p1]

Who did Duran beat at lightweight that was remotely close to Leonard? DeJesus? Buchanan? Not even remotely close.

Leonard has wins over Benitez and Hearns. Much better than any wins Duran ever had.

I don't know if that's totally fair to Duran though. He did fight those guys but he himself was past his best and 20lbs above his best weight while they were at their best weight and in there primes. I don't think, as great as Leonard was, he beats guys at the same level as Benitez or Hearns at 167lbs.

[Ambling Alp II]

Guess I disagree with that analysis for multiple reasons.

First, we need to get away from the Duran was always a lightweight way of thinking. Most fighters move up. It's the rule, not the exception. Countless guys have done.
If done gradually (as Duran did) there is no reason why a guy can do just well. A guy weighing 135 at the ager of 20, can naturally grow to 147 or 154 by his late 20s. He loses a little speed, gains a little strength, just like the bigger opponents he is now facing. He is also more experienced.
(I would also argue that Duran was no better at 135 than 147. Don't see any evidence that is contrary to that.)

Duran was routinely fighting over 140 for several years before he even fought Leonard, an many other between 135-140. He actually had more fights over 135 than Leonard had fights. He was a natural 147 when he fought Leonard. It wasn't like he had very little exposure to 147 like Leonard had at 160 when he beat Hagler. Or a long layoff for that matter.

Even if you disagree with all this, think of it this way- Don't count the 3rd fight. In fact throw out all of Duran's losses after the 2nd fight. Leonard. Count winning a tough 15 round decision as equal to winning by TKO8.

Who, overall, beat better opponents?
Fighter A and fighter B fought each other twice, and each won once. Without anything else to go on, they are even.
Fighter A never fought anyone else in the Top 50 of all time. Fight B beat 3 guys (lets call them Wilfred, Tommy and Marvin) that are in the top 50 of all time.
You would have rate Fighter B higher. And we normally do. Even by bending over backwards for Duran, Leonard still rates higher than Duran by how fighters are generally rated.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sorry if I went too long about this.

[gilgamesh]

I'd have to give it to Leonard by a slight margin, but depending on the matchup. I can see Duran beating guys that Leonard maybe couldn't and vice versa.

[Wee Tommy]

Sorry if I went too long about this.

I was shocked how strong Roberto was in the Hagler fight. What shocked me more was how Hearns wiped him clean out.

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree. He did better than expected against Hagler and worse against Hearns.

[Wee Tommy]

I agree. He did better than expected against Hagler and worse against Hearns.

I think he had no English for either fight, so not a factor.