Archie Moore vs Ray Robinson at 160?

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 04 Aug 2006, 09:42

Forgive me if this has been done before but I feel the match up is very interesting. Neither man is at his best weight at 160, Moore heavier and Robinson lighter. Both were great Middleweights but also inconsistent at that weight. Would Moores natural size advantage prove too much for the faster more explosive Robinson?

I would lean towards a Robinson decision based on his agility and combination accuracy. Very tough fight for Robinson but he was the better middleweight over all. Robinson UD Moore.

Thoughts?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 04 Aug 2006, 11:20

Decagon wrote:Moore by stoppage. Moore was easily one of the best middleweights of the 1940s. If even the 150-pound Robinson had taken on Moore instead of LaMotta, he would've been stopped.

the 1951 160lb sugar ray robinson knocks out archie moore. moore had not yet reached his peak when he was a middleweight, and his chin was very vunerable and his defense was not as great as it was in the 1950s. robinson is simply the best middleweight.

archie moore had trouble with top speed/power and athletism, check out the eddie booker fights.

robinson KO 8 archie moore at 160lb

robinson vs moore at 175llb? moore by knockout

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 04 Aug 2006, 16:16

Under most circumstance I'd go with Moore, he's good enough and the naturally bigger guy. You can make some cases that a weight starved Moore would be prey to Robinson and I won't offer a big arguement. The higher the catchweight the more the odds go to Moore, lower they certainly tilt to Robinson.

I'd put my money on Moore and accept the outcome of what I think would be a great fight.

theone · Post by **theone** » 04 Aug 2006, 17:35

The Robison that tko'd Lamotta for the title wins a tough but clear cut decision over Moore, who was better as a light heavy.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 04 Aug 2006, 18:50

look if were talking about the 160lb version of moore, he gets knocked out by robinson.

if were talking about the big 175lb peak version of archie moore, robinson gets knocked out.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 04 Aug 2006, 20:40

Yep it would be a far worse situation for Sugar than just "running out of gas" ala Maxim.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 04 Aug 2006, 20:46

This fight should have gone in the books as a win for Moore....He was beating good Heavyweights well into the sixties..

http://www.ringmemorabilia.com/Moore-Pastrano.jpg

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 04 Aug 2006, 22:46

interesting comments guys......I am of the thinking that because it was such a struggle for Moore to get to 160 that he would be too worn out to be able to handle a top 3 MW of all time. Taking nothing away from Moore of course because I feel he had a higher boxing IQ than mabey any man to have faught. Robinson, although not as fast as he was as a Welter could avoid the power of Moore and ware him down. Brockton may be right that Moore gets stopped but I give the mongoose the benifit of the doubt that he could find a way to survive. I also agree with BoxBuzz that any catchweight above 160 would be all Moore would need to upset Robinson.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 04 Aug 2006, 22:51

Decagon wrote:In a prime-vs.-prime bout, I'd lean more towards Robinson.

What do you consider the weights for each mans prime? I think thet Robinson was at his absolute best at 147 and Moore at 175. So it is nearly impossible for them to meet in their primes. That is part of the reason I thought this was an interesting match-up, each man not at their best. I say that last line knowing damn well that even not at their best, they still are better than most.

barry · Post by **barry** » 05 Aug 2006, 09:40

I don't know...at 160 I would have to lean toward Moore simply because he had the size advantage, which usually is meaningless, but in the case of the very elite it could be a difference.

A side from Henry Armstrong, Robinson was simply the greatest P4P fighter to ever step in the ring at the welterweight limit...at 160 pounds he was very human and Moore, well he was Moore and at 160 I think he would give Robinson a serious battle. I would lean toward Moore on a very close points win, or maybe a draw.

theone · Post by **theone** » 05 Aug 2006, 09:59

When Moore fought at middleweight he seemed to only defeat the divisions elite by ko, and he often lost by decision if he didnt score the knockout.

That being said i can envision Robinson outboxing Moore at middleweight using his superior boxing skill and speed. Robinson chin never failed in his entire career and most likely wouldnt in this fight.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Aug 2006, 10:12

Ray would outpoint Moore I think... its a shame that this fight didnt come off as it almost did in the late 50s... that would be more of a toss up with probably Moores extra strength prevailing over a aging Ray.....

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 05 Aug 2006, 10:38

Interesting point about Ray's chin holding up, never been a better chin checker than Moore, sort of the old saying about the irresistable force meeting the immovable object....or in Ray's case the constantly moving and slipping object. Too bad it never happened.

barry · Post by **barry** » 05 Aug 2006, 11:55

Well, if there was anyone that could knockout Robinson, then Moore would be the one...however I don't see Robinson being knocked out!

theone · Post by **theone** » 05 Aug 2006, 12:25

Archie Moore beat Jack Chase and Lloyd Marshall by decision.

Your right Dec, I made to general of a statement and overstated my point a bit. I was trying to make the point that Moore was outboxed more than a couple of times when her lived in the division.
He usual scored ko's in his biggest wins. If Burley, Williams,Hogue could out box the ol' Mongoose than surely Robinson could.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 05 Aug 2006, 13:29

marshall was past his prime(but still very good) when moore beat him besides this was a light-h matchup, both weighed in well over 160lb. so this doesnt reflect on moores middleweight career.

were talking about the early 1940s 160lb archie moore here vs the late 40s-early 1950s 155-160lb sugar ray robinson.

moore had a vunerable chin at 160lb, and he didnt have the great defense he had later on in his career that enabled him to protect his chin. booker, burley and more all got to archie moore and dropped him/or stopped him at 160lb.

i think robinson was the more complete fighter and puncher than those guys and i dont think moore had peaked yet by the early 1940s. he was more of just an offensive fighter then. i think robinson stops moore. i think robinsons combinations of speed/power will get to moore

had a robinson-moore 175lb match taken place in 1952, i would take moore by KO.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Aug 2006, 14:26

Robinson certainly had the better chin than Moore and if they fought at 160-160 then I go for Ray, probably by Ko.... his speed would be too much for Moore... Archie was a better and stronger fighter at 175....

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Aug 2006, 07:08

Decagon wrote:Around a month ago, we were trying to find an area where Ray Robinson was weak. He was nowhere near as smart a fighter as Archie Moore was. Robinson was so technically proficient an offensive fighter that he didn't need to set traps the way Moore did. Yes, he did have beautiful feints that caught people off guard, but he didn't have the "big game" that Moore had.

Just because Ray would outbox people better than Moore and didnt need to use tricks doesnt mean that he wasnt thinking in there... withs Rays style he always had to be thinking and trying to keep one step ahead of the opponent... one of the reasons he was so good in rematches is because he would work out his opponents... Ray was a very clever boxer... maybe not as 'cute' as Moore was but to say he didnt have a big game is a big mistake...

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 10 Aug 2006, 11:21

It is hard to figure why a match never happened. I think Ol Arch would have had a hard time making weight. Anybody know the last time he fought at 160? He must have been a pup. I don't think Ray would have retired if this one had been promoted. What was Ray's weight for Maxim?
With the money and interest this one would have generated, it's crazy it didn't. They sure missed the boat. Maybe a non-title bout at 168 might have been the best way to go. This one may have rivalled Ali-Frazier I.

Archie Moore vs Ray Robinson at 160?

What is the outcome?

Archie Moore vs Ray Robinson at 160?

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Moore- Robinson