Ian John Lewis and Victor Laughlin

[handsofstone]

Never understand how it's fine for imbeciles like IJL to ruin fledging careers or guys at low level but not at top level, your either a competent official or not, networks and pundits need to start digging out individuals like they do on football

[Controversial]

If Fighter A scores a knockdown then most cases it would be 10-8. A knockdown deserves that reward. If Fighter B really dominated the round despite being knocked down then perhaps 10-9 for A instead of 10-8.

But what you are doing there is scoring the KD twice. You should score the fight and ignore the KD. So if you think fighter A has won the round (ignoring any knockdowns) then they get 10 points and fighter B gets 9. But to reward the KD you give fighter B an extra point, because its a 10 point must system it makes it a 10-10 round. Otherwise you are giving two points for one knockdown, because you are saying fighter A lost the round (when you think he won) and then also deducting another point for the KD. That isn't how it should be done but so many people do it like this.

Well the judges for the largest fights do it like this;

https://www.ringtv.com/122349-when-does ... 0-8-round/

And i disagree about scoring the KD twice, at a knockdown my opinion is 10-8 becomes a default, so 10-9 means the other guy has gained a point back.

But if you think fighter A was the clear winner of the round (ignoring any knockdowns) then he should be given 10 points and fighter B should get 9 points. If you then decide because of the KD fighter A lost the round 9-10 then you have deducted one point off his card and added one to the opponents. Two points for one KD.

[Dioufy]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

[Controversial]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

But that isn't how it's meant to be scored. So turning the example around fighter A dominates and also knocks his opponent down heavily, would you give him 3 points for the same KD plus a point for winning the round and score it 10-6?

[dookus]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

For me no. There are too many KDs which are wrongly called or just flash/off-balance. So a fighter can often get a two or three-point swing for something that was an accident or not that important in the context of the fight itself (i.e. separately from how it's being scored)

[Dioufy]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

But that isn't how it's meant to be scored. So turning the example around fighter A dominates and also knocks his opponent down heavily, would you give him 3 points for the same KD plus a point for winning the round and score it 10-6?

No, I’d still give it 10-8 tbh.
I don’t know the actual official rules on this. I’ve never sat down and read the hand book.
It’s what I’ve grown up and it’s how ‘experts’, analysts and judges have scored fights, and maybe the lack of official questioning made me score fights this way.
Every sport has grey areas where laws are written down but never implemented, nor does anyone really question it.
Example; goalkeepers should be punished for holding onto the hall for 6 secs.
Goalies never get punished for this unless you’re my beloved Bolton vs Newcastle and Alan Shearer.

[dookus]

Also, thinking about it again, it seems unsatisfying to give a fighter a three-point swing for getting a KD when he's losing a round, but only a two-point swing if he's winning it. It feels like it incentivises sitting on the backfoot waiting for openings, rather than making the fight happen.

[Dioufy]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

For me no. There are too many KDs which are wrongly called or just flash/off-balance. So a fighter can often get a two or three-point swing for something that was an accident or not that important in the context of the fight itself (i.e. separately from how it's being scored)

If the knockdown is controversial or a flash put down then I’ll score it 10-9 more than likely instead of 10-8.
Proper grey area this and fights depend on it.
Why hasn’t this situation been made crystal clear?

[Dioufy]

I can’t imagine being edged out in a round to then score a blistering knockdown at the end and only getting a 10-10 or 9-9 for it.

[olij999]

And about the last 15 comments above all show why it is so important that everyone understands how things are supposed to be scored in the UK (whether or not they think the rationale is sensible), so that the Refs Guide is published, and that it is applied consistently. And that the rules in all jurisdictions around knockdowns etc are published.

The EBU do so - see https://www.boxebu.com/european-championship-rules/ ,m, scroll down to POCKET REMINDER BASIC GUIDELINES JUDGES, and click on "10 Point Must System". That says:

10-10 Couldn’t pick a winner.
10-9 Slight or close advantage.
10-9 Clear or definite advantage.
10-9 When both boxers are knocked down, but one of them wins clearly the actions in the round.
10-8 Advantage and one knock down.
10-8 Total domination or a beating by one of the boxers during the duration of the round, even when there is no knock down.
10-7 Advantage and two knock downs.
10-6 Advantage and more than two knock downs, but never lower.

So they are saying that "advantage", i.e. who won the round, is not related to knockdowns.

Ricky - I agree that in most cases a round with one KD will be scored 10-8 in the UK - that is because, as well as scoring the KD, the fighter who scores it lands several good punches either in the lead up to the KD or when the fight immediately resumes, and it is those punches which often win him/her the round, before the one-point adjustment for the KD.

[Ricky]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

But that isn't how it's meant to be scored.

According to who? That is the correct way according to these judges:

https://www.ringtv.com/122349-when-does ... 0-8-round/

[Controversial]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

But that isn't how it's meant to be scored. So turning the example around fighter A dominates and also knocks his opponent down heavily, would you give him 3 points for the same KD plus a point for winning the round and score it 10-6?

No, I’d still give it 10-8 tbh.
I don’t know the actual official rules on this. I’ve never sat down and read the hand book.
It’s what I’ve grown up and it’s how ‘experts’, analysts and judges have scored fights, and maybe the lack of official questioning made me score fights this way.
Every sport has grey areas where laws are written down but never implemented, nor does anyone really question it.
Example; goalkeepers should be punished for holding onto the hall for 6 secs.
Goalies never get punished for this unless you’re my beloved Bolton vs Newcastle and Alan Shearer.

To be fair lots of people do it like this, even the so called experts on the TV. Someone listed the rules previously, you score the round and ignore any knockdowns. It's a 10 point must system so the winner gets 10 points. Once that has been decided you adjust one point for a KD.

[olij999]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

For me no. There are too many KDs which are wrongly called or just flash/off-balance. So a fighter can often get a two or three-point swing for something that was an accident or not that important in the context of the fight itself (i.e. separately from how it's being scored)

But all that is a separate debate, which is "are judges entitled to overrule the referee when they score if they think the referee has got it wrong?" Mickey Vann states in his autobiography that he did so in the Chavez-Whitaker fight, for example.

In the UK, a KD is a KD, irrespective of how heavy it is. And as for "experts" on TV, don't get me started.

[Dioufy]

But that isn't how it's meant to be scored. So turning the example around fighter A dominates and also knocks his opponent down heavily, would you give him 3 points for the same KD plus a point for winning the round and score it 10-6?

No, I’d still give it 10-8 tbh.
I don’t know the actual official rules on this. I’ve never sat down and read the hand book.
It’s what I’ve grown up and it’s how ‘experts’, analysts and judges have scored fights, and maybe the lack of official questioning made me score fights this way.
Every sport has grey areas where laws are written down but never implemented, nor does anyone really question it.
Example; goalkeepers should be punished for holding onto the hall for 6 secs.
Goalies never get punished for this unless you’re my beloved Bolton vs Newcastle and Alan Shearer.

To be fair lots of people do it like this, even the so called experts on the TV. Someone listed the rules about, you score the round and ignore any knockdowns. It's a 10 point must system so the winner gets 10 points. Once that has been decided you deduct one point for a KD.

I genuinely don’t know the official way to score these situations. I use my own judgment as there’s a lot of contradiction, opinion and very little fact knocking around.

[Controversial]

No, I’d still give it 10-8 tbh.
I don’t know the actual official rules on this. I’ve never sat down and read the hand book.
It’s what I’ve grown up and it’s how ‘experts’, analysts and judges have scored fights, and maybe the lack of official questioning made me score fights this way.
Every sport has grey areas where laws are written down but never implemented, nor does anyone really question it.
Example; goalkeepers should be punished for holding onto the hall for 6 secs.
Goalies never get punished for this unless you’re my beloved Bolton vs Newcastle and Alan Shearer.

To be fair lots of people do it like this, even the so called experts on the TV. Someone listed the rules about, you score the round and ignore any knockdowns. It's a 10 point must system so the winner gets 10 points. Once that has been decided you deduct one point for a KD.

I genuinely don’t know the official way to score these situations. I use my own judgment as there’s a lot of contradiction, opinion and very little fact knocking around.

But the above explains it. Pick the round winner and give them 10 points then adjust the scores afterwards to take into account any KDs or infringements.

[Dioufy]

To be fair lots of people do it like this, even the so called experts on the TV. Someone listed the rules about, you score the round and ignore any knockdowns. It's a 10 point must system so the winner gets 10 points. Once that has been decided you deduct one point for a KD.

I genuinely don’t know the official way to score these situations. I use my own judgment as there’s a lot of contradiction, opinion and very little fact knocking around.

But the above explains it. Pick the round winner and give them 10 points then adjust the scores afterwards to take into account any KDs or infringements.

So if there’s a close, but clear-ish round and the slight winner of that rounds get put on Canal St with one punch on the bell would you go even?
Assuming that punch isn’t enough to steal the round.

[margaret thatcher]

so is a bbbc ref erroring if he scores a round 10-9 for fighter b, who lost most of the round but scored a kd? is 10-10 the right score. is IJL actually the only one getting it right?

[Controversial]

I genuinely don’t know the official way to score these situations. I use my own judgment as there’s a lot of contradiction, opinion and very little fact knocking around.

But the above explains it. Pick the round winner and give them 10 points then adjust the scores afterwards to take into account any KDs or infringements.

So if there’s a close, but clear-ish round and the slight winner of that rounds get put on Canal St with one punch on the bell would you go even?
Assuming that punch isn’t enough to steal the round.

Thats how it should be done if you think the dropped guy actually won the round ignoring the KD.

[dookus]

so is a bbbc ref erroring if he scores a round 10-9 for fighter b, who lost most of the round but scored a kd? is 10-10 the right score. is IJL actually the only one getting it right?

That is correct, and it's annoying it's not scored properly more often

[dookus]

If a fighter is winning a round and he gets knocked down I’ll score it 10-8 against him.
I feel that knockdowns should be fully rewarded.
I agree with 3-point swings.
If a fighter has won a round very convincingly and in a highly conclusive way and he gets knocked down I’ll be nice and go 10-9 against him.
Also depends on the knockdown itself. If it’s a cuffing, half shot/slip pure flash knockdown I might still go 10-9 but a heavy knockdown is likely to get you a 10-8 for me… unless like stated, you’re breasted the round before you’re knocked down.
No one agree?

For me no. There are too many KDs which are wrongly called or just flash/off-balance. So a fighter can often get a two or three-point swing for something that was an accident or not that important in the context of the fight itself (i.e. separately from how it's being scored)

But all that is a separate debate, which is "are judges entitled to overrule the referee when they score if they think the referee has got it wrong?" Mickey Vann states in his autobiography that he did so in the Chavez-Whitaker fight, for example.

In the UK, a KD is a KD, irrespective of how heavy it is. And as for "experts" on TV, don't get me started.

Are they entitled to?

[Fightnight Scores]

This thread has been great and shows just how much of a grey area scoring is. It's not at all clear.

So if there’s a close, but clear-ish round and the slight winner of that rounds get put on Canal St with one punch on the bell would you go even?
Assuming that punch isn’t enough to steal the round.

In this instance, surely the one punch that put the other guy "on canal street" was big enough of an influence on the round as a whole to win it no?

Only way I see if being any different is if fighter A was really getting the better of B for most of the round, but B lands something to cause a flash knockdown where A is back up without issue (those instances where they are more off balance than a proper telling landed shot).

Commentary and judges would usually automatically call that a 10-8 round as there was a knockdown and it's not right.

[dookus]

Only way I see if being any different is if fighter A was really getting the better of B for most of the round, but B lands something to cause a flash knockdown where A is back up without issue (those instances where they are more off balance than a proper telling landed shot).

Commentary and judges would usually automatically call that a 10-8 round as there was a knockdown and it's not right.

Absolutely. In that scenario they're making the KD a 3-point swing (9-10 to 10-8) when it should really be a 1-point swing (9-10 to 9-9, which becomes 10-10).

They really need to put up how a summary of how scoring works before televised fights. "Winner of a round gets 10 points, one point bonus per knockdown" or something. Or failing that just put "NO AUTOMATIC 10-8 ROUNDS" in big red letters

[CaptainSpacerod]

Board’s decision makes no sense to me. Why downgrade IJL’s status as a referee when it’s his competence as a judge that was being called into question ?

And unless I’m misunderstanding the scores then had Victor given one of the rounds he gave to Jack the other way round then he would have had an identical score to IJL. So they’re hanging IJL out to dry but Victor gets away scot free on the basis of one potentially close round scored the other way.

Is this just a question of Rob Smith feeling pressured into doing something, anything to quell the furore around this decision ?

[olij999]

Board’s decision makes no sense to me. Why downgrade IJL’s status as a referee when it’s his competence as a judge that was being called into question ?

And unless I’m misunderstanding the scores then had Victor given one of the rounds he gave to Jack the other way round then he would have had an identical score to IJL. So they’re hanging IJL out to dry but Victor gets away scot free on the basis of one potentially close round scored the other way.

Is this just a question of Rob Smith feeling pressured into doing something, anything to quell the furore around this decision ?

On your first point, there is no separate licence for judging - it's all part of being a ref.

[nobleart1978]

The best thing to do is to get rid of the points system and award rounds to each boxer like the old New York method.

So, for example, Catterall won the fight 7-4-1