Muhammed Ali v. Henry Cooper - torn glove story a myth?

[granberry]

Some of you are being a bit harsh on Dundee here.... It was Dundee who got Ali to go out for the 5th round against Liston when he couldnt see, it was Dundee who got Leonard to do something special when he was behind in the first Hearns fight... Dundee trained a lot of other good boxers such as Luis Rodriguez... the fact that Ali chose Dundee to be his trainer says a lot... he might like telling stories but he knew what he was doing in there....

Dundee never TRAINED anyone.

He was a cornerman.

Dundee had his chance to show what he could do in the corner when Jimmy Young had given Ali a boxing lesson for five rounds.

Dundee (and Ali) couldn't come up with squat.

It only got worse for them as the rounds passed.

They were made asses out of by Young and his Philly trainer Bob Brown.

After the fight Dundee said of Ali, "He never looked so bad."

Notice Dundee was divorcing himself from his own fighter.

When Ali won a fight Dundee was quick to take some credit--"We did this...I told him this..."

But after the Young fight Dundee wanted to be as far away as possible from being connected with the fool that Ali looked like against Young for 15 rounds.

Dundee's comment after that fight is an all-time classic.

[granberry]

Dundee trained Pastrano who had limited talent and he won the lightheavyweight title.

The "decision" Pastrano got over Harold Johnson was a joke.

And Johnson never got a return fight.

Stinks to high heavens.

[granberry]

Ali had along with a great heart, and chin, remarkable recupertive powers and a fantastic brain when hurt, I think even if Ali had been floored midway through the round he would still have survived, ...this was Ali... the likes of Shavers couldnt ko him even when he was basically shot. I cant remember the exact extra time between rounds but it was no more than about 20 or 30 seconds... which also gave Coppers corner longer to work on his cut eye remember...

The Shavers-Ali fight was what is called half-arranged fight.

EVERY TIME Shavers clobbered Ali he then would not follow up.

(Shavers had one eye on the muslims in Ali's corner).

"I think even if Ali had been floored midway through the round he would still have survived,"

I think silkov believes in fairy tales.

I think if the rules of boxing had been enforced (as they should have been)

Ali lost to 185 pound Henry Cooper by a 5-round TKO. (Ali unable to answer the bell in time for the 5th round).

[Ezzard]

Ali had along with a great heart, and chin, remarkable recupertive powers and a fantastic brain when hurt, I think even if Ali had been floored midway through the round he would still have survived, ...this was Ali... the likes of Shavers couldnt ko him even when he was basically shot. I cant remember the exact extra time between rounds but it was no more than about 20 or 30 seconds... which also gave Coppers corner longer to work on his cut eye remember...

The Shavers-Ali fight was what is called half-arranged fight.

EVERY TIME Shavers clobbered Ali he then would not follow up.

(Shavers had one eye on the muslims in Ali's corner).

"I think even if Ali had been floored midway through the round he would still have survived,"

I think silkov believes in fairy tales.

I think if the rules of boxing had been enforced (as they should have been)

Ali lost to 185 pound Henry Cooper by a 5-round TKO. (Ali unable to answer the bell in time for the 5th round).

granberry

You seem to have an awful lot of knowledge on the background to fights. What do you know about Ali-Shavers to think it was half-arranged? I've seen the fight and Shavers never pressed an advantage but is there more to it than that?

[Bladder]

Granberry is exposing the Ali shills.

[BoxBuzz]

Hey Granberry, just went back and looked at the record...Ali is still considered the winner of that bout. I'll check again next week and let you know if anything changes.

[granberry]

Hey Granberry, just went back and looked at the record...Ali is still considered the winner of that bout. I'll check again next week and let you know if anything changes.

By whom?

[granberry]

Ali had along with a great heart, and chin, remarkable recupertive powers and a fantastic brain when hurt, I think even if Ali had been floored midway through the round he would still have survived, ...this was Ali... the likes of Shavers couldnt ko him even when he was basically shot. I cant remember the exact extra time between rounds but it was no more than about 20 or 30 seconds... which also gave Coppers corner longer to work on his cut eye remember...

The Shavers-Ali fight was what is called half-arranged fight.

EVERY TIME Shavers clobbered Ali he then would not follow up.

(Shavers had one eye on the muslims in Ali's corner).

"I think even if Ali had been floored midway through the round he would still have survived,"

I think silkov believes in fairy tales.

I think if the rules of boxing had been enforced (as they should have been)

Ali lost to 185 pound Henry Cooper by a 5-round TKO. (Ali unable to answer the bell in time for the 5th round).

granberry

You seem to have an awful lot of knowledge on the background to fights. What do you know about Ali-Shavers to think it was half-arranged? I've seen the fight and Shavers never pressed an advantage but is there more to it than that?

It was obvious that Shavers was not following up after he clobbered Ali. Over and over. Anyone who saw the fight could see that.
I remember Young Gene Buffalo describing that fight as an obvious example of a "half-arranged" fight.

Ali was at Jimmy Young's mercy in the 13th, 14th, 15th rounds of their fight.

Watch as Young hits Ali with a right hand, then lets him recover.
Repeatedly. One time as Ali suddenly backed away, showing he was hurt by a right hand, Young came forward and threw a sham right hand two feet off to the side of Ali's head, so that the stupid people watching would think he was trying to hit Ali again.
Young had to go back and try to live with his family in Philly after the fight.

Those muslims with Ali killed other blacks like flies.

(I assume you are familiar with their slaughter of women and children at the Hanafi muslim home in Washington, D.C).

Shavers and Young certainly knew about that.

Speaking of holding back, watch Jimmy Young's half-arranged fight with Ken Norton, who didn't belong in the same ring with Young in an unscripted fight.

In the 2nd round Young (who wasn't supposed to be able to punch--even though he broke Ali's eardrum and knocked Foreman down)---

threw his first real punch of the fight, a right hand that hurt Norton badly.

WATCH what Young does after that. He MOVES AWAY like he was the one who was hurt, and doesn't throw another punch for the rest of the round.

Young had the best body attack to come along in years. He wore down Lyle, Ali, Foreman with it.

So what did Young do against Norton, the fighter with the tiny, vulnerable midsection? He didn't use his body attack.

That fight stunk to high heavens.

[mattym]

granberry why do you think every fight that ever happened was a conspiracy? Or do you just tell yourself that to suit your own diabolical ends?

[granberry]

granberry why do you think every fight that ever happened was a conspiracy? Or do you just tell yourself that to suit your own diabolical ends?

Do you believe boxing is a lilly white "sport" and that the people who have controlled it are all choir boys?

Tell us about the 2nd Ali-Liston "fight" and Ali's "magic" punch that "knocked out" Liston

even though Ali never scored a knockDOWN (much less a knockout)

in the first round of any other title fight he had.

[mattym]

Yes. Yes that is what i believe. Your assuming that the fact i do not believe your extreme means i believe the other extreme shows the lack of weight in your argument and generally embarasses yourself all round.

Sorry your argument for the Liston fight being fake is a bit pathetic. You do not seem to understand that 1st round knockouts, along with single huge punches that put a fighter down for the count are rare!

I really understand that boxing has a mixed background, but u actually ruin it further when you skepticise about fixings that did not actually occur, that sheds as much a negative light on the sport as tipped judges my friend, your cynical view of boxing as a second rate sport doesnt have much of a place here

[granberry]

Yes. Yes that is what i believe. Your assuming that the fact i do not believe your extreme means i believe the other extreme shows the lack of weight in your argument and generally embarasses yourself all round.

Sorry your argument for the Liston fight being fake is a bit pathetic. You do not seem to understand that 1st round knockouts, along with single huge punches that put a fighter down for the count are rare!

I really understand that boxing has a mixed background, but u actually ruin it further when you skepticise about fixings that did not actually occur, that sheds as much a negative light on the sport as tipped judges my friend, your cynical view of boxing as a second rate sport doesnt have much of a place here

Boxing is the best sport there is.

Except when it isn't on the level.

Expound for us on the branch of the muslims who ran Ali.

Were they all choir boys?

Did they never harm a flea?

[granberry]

Sorry your argument for the Liston fight being fake is a bit pathetic.

George Chuvalo sat in the 3rd row. He said , "It was a phoney."

Floyd Patterson said repeatedly he did not believe it was legitimate.

Jack Dempsey said it was a fake.

Joe Louis said it was a fake.

Don Dunphy said, "If that was a punch, I'll eat it."

Georgie Benton said, "It didn't look like enough for a knockout."

Benton suggested watching Liston like a hawk from the moment he gets up from the supposed "knockout" until the film ends.

WHY?

Because Liston shows NO characteristics of someone who was just "knocked out."

Watch everything Liston does from the moment he gets up.

Ali proved in his very next fight with a sore-backed Patterson that he had no punch.

[mattym]

Yes. Yes that is what i believe. Your assuming that the fact i do not believe your extreme means i believe the other extreme shows the lack of weight in your argument and generally embarasses yourself all round.

Sorry your argument for the Liston fight being fake is a bit pathetic. You do not seem to understand that 1st round knockouts, along with single huge punches that put a fighter down for the count are rare!

I really understand that boxing has a mixed background, but u actually ruin it further when you skepticise about fixings that did not actually occur, that sheds as much a negative light on the sport as tipped judges my friend, your cynical view of boxing as a second rate sport doesnt have much of a place here

Boxing is the best sport there is.

Except when it isn't on the level.

Expound for us on the branch of the muslims who ran Ali.

Were they all choir boys?

Did they never harm a flea?

I dont know, nor do i care about the muslims who ran ali. Those fights were not fixed imo. Ah well i am going to bed, i gues u wont open your eyes to the greatness of Ali, n for that i pity your loss.