Making the Perfect Heavyweight

kevin · Post by **kevin** » 21 Jun 2003, 03:29

What do you guys think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/2999962.stm

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 21 Jun 2003, 03:49

I believe we beat them to this test in this forum about a month ago.

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 24 Jun 2003, 01:41

Terap you seem a bit confused ....Jack Dempsey lost a decision to Tunney in the rematch...He knocked Tunney down, but Gene got up and won convincingly..
People don't think Ali is great because of how he fought Doug Jones, Jimmy Young or Alfredo Evangalista...They think he's great because he whipped Sonny Liston ,Joe Frazier and George Foreman,.arguably Thee of the top ten heavyweights of all time...
But this list is bogus because it left out Joe Louis who had blistering hand speed and combination in favor of the real Mr. Overrated Mike Tyson

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 24 Jun 2003, 02:07

any list that doesn't include Joe Louis for quickness, as Zurdo says, has no validity from the start. The Joe Louis/Max Baer fitght isn't that hard to find and is an excellent example of the Bomber's hand speed. As he did with so many others, Louis could hit you while you were on the way down.
Tomato Can is going to jump in here and talk about those three left hooks he smacked Walcott with in the second fight..and Joe's reflexes were fading. First Conn fight....Louis back to the ropes..Conn lands a barrage...Louis lands one short one that doesn't seem to be all that much...but it started Conn (whose chin is terrrific in this fight) on the way out.

I'm sure terap is referring to the Long Count as the reason he considers Dempsey winning that fight, and he has a lot of company. I stay with Tunney, but another point for terap re Ali....if Dempsey's not going to nuetral corner cause the count to be delayed set the precedent, then a lot of guys Ali put on the canvas could have stayed there for damn near a minute. I'm not the anti-ali person terap is, but the referees hardly ever made him move away....let him stand there raising his hand, circling around without moving more than a few feet away.

Plus..can't let a list of quickness go by without mentioning..guess who...Ezzard Charles. Marciano said he was "as quick as a snake." When he was training for his fight with Charles. Joe Louis said he was trying to find sparring partners as quick as Charles...."but there isn't anybody close."

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 24 Jun 2003, 02:13

True Joe Frazier won the first fight with Ali I"m well aware of that result.. It was a fair decision too... But Ali did win the second fight rather handily and he did deal out a pretty hellacious whipping to Frazier(and got one in return i might add) in the third classsic fight..

But you are correct when you say Joe Frazier beat Ali in thier first match.It was a tough battle but Joe won fairly
Just like the decision that Jack Dempsey lost to Tunney in their 1927 rematch...
I know the fight is contriversial and throught the years I've heard one side and the other argue their subjective points..
But the record book says: Gene Tunney W 10 Jack Dempsey..thats not subjective

Sorry I don't share your "conspiracy theory" view of the Liston fights...
Really now Terap,who's going to intimidate Sonny Liston into taking a dive...
What happened was Liston showed up in poor condition and got his ass whipped by a quicker, hungrier and all around better fighter...Sonny was past his prime and maybe he just didn't give a damn any more..

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 25 Jun 2003, 08:54

(on cue) Most heavyweights I have seen cant even throw a triple left hook without tripping over their own feet and falling down. They just dnt have the natural balance. Louis let go on Walcott with one that was hard to see in regular time and has to be slowed down to really appreciate it. The reason Louis had such a great KO record is not just because he was powerful (which he was) but because his opponents did'nt see the punches coming and as we all know it's the ones you dont see that KO you.

Terap.. are you privey to information that nobody else has? People have been talking about the Liston- Ali fix conspiracy for 40 years now but nobody has been able to prove it. As long as we are talking about things we cant prove, why did Liston use an illegal substance on his gloves to blind Ali if he knew he was supposed to lose?

Also your hatred of Ali is so great that you keep saying he lost to Frazier, he lost to Frazier, without supplying that little tidbit of news that Ali beat Frazier 2 out of 3.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 25 Jun 2003, 18:42

No. I am new to this boxing game. Who's Eddie Futch. I think George Benton is a jazz guitarist. Is Philadelphia in Mississippi? I am sure about Tony Perez though. He was a first baseman for The Cincinnati Reds although I think he started out as a 3rd baseman.

btw- That was a pretty emotional post you just made there. Are you sure you dont hate Ali?

Dancin' Dan · Post by **Dancin' Dan** » 25 Jun 2003, 20:46

Ali proved his greatness over and over. Early Clay was extremely talented. Did you see him handle Cleveland Williams? Was the Foreman fight fixed? Why was Liston trying so hard to take Clay's head off in their first fight if it was a "fix"? You are correct that Ali lost the most important of the three fights with Frazier but did come back and win the other two. Also, it was an extremely close fight between two hall of famers. Foreman destroyed Frazier twice, only to lose to an incredibly brave and past his prime Ali.

Dempsey was incredible. His style to crouch back low and then spring forward into his openings was devastating. He beat huge men, hugely in short order. This was also a time before modern training. Often he spent months/years doing theater and movies.

Hate to see these great fighter taken down. As far as the perfect heavy? I would tell you who had exactly the wrong body type - Marciano and yet he retired undefeated. The prototype would be Riddick Bowe and his career ended up being a disappointment - although I loved his wars with Evander.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 25 Jun 2003, 23:38

oh boy, now you gonna get Terap started on cleveland williams.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 26 Jun 2003, 00:02

Tantum wrote:oh boy, now you gonna get Terap started on cleveland williams.

I hope he is kind enough to send a PM to the poor soul.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 26 Jun 2003, 12:48

Terap, you know I agree with you to a point. But all "great" fighters have their salesmen, let them enjoy their favorite fighter, you know? Who cares who they think is the best... if you know, you can try to explain why, but don't hate someone for who they like, eh?

I don't care for Ali, but he was better than you make him out to be, and alot less than what the Ali salesmen make him out to be... but most of it is opinion, and we are all entitled to our own, right?

You know you're never gonna win an arguement with an Ali salesmen, so you should probably stop stressing about it. 8)

Dancin' Dan · Post by **Dancin' Dan** » 27 Jun 2003, 18:50

Funny part is getting called an Ali Salesman or part of the Clueless Ali Shill. I've never been a fan of the man - ever. Just think that his career speaks for itself. Every great fighter as a Doug Jones. Frazier one was a great, great fight by both guys.

I am a huge Louis and Dempsey fan however.