Joe Calzaghe - Question Mark

[jamesmcdonnell]

Joe was a completely different level.

So was his reluctance to take on all comers.

It seems you're using every excuse in the book to excuse Calzghages record, whilst playing down Frochs.

I'd have picked Calzaghe to beat froch if they'd fought, but it's quite possible the fight would never have happened.

Why because you think Cazlaghe would have been scared to fight Carl Froch? The man who just went life and death with Dale Westerman?

This is getting ridiculous now.

[mickey1975]

So was his reluctance to take on all comers.

It seems you're using every excuse in the book to excuse Calzghages record, whilst playing down Frochs.

I'd have picked Calzaghe to beat froch if they'd fought, but it's quite possible the fight would never have happened.

Why because you think Cazlaghe would have been scared to fight Carl Froch? The man who just went life and death with Dale Westerman?

This is getting ridiculous now.

It has, James. But if Alex Arthur and Booth are saying it there must be something in it?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Why because you think Cazlaghe would have been scared to fight Carl Froch? The man who just went life and death with Dale Westerman?

This is getting ridiculous now.

It has, James. But if Alex Arthur and Booth are saying it there must be something in it?

I'm not saying the guy couldnt punch, far from it, especially early on in his career, I'm just saying soarring isnt actual fighting, and I think calzaghes powers taking on a mythical status here. Matthew Barney was apparently an aggressive killing machine with every shot in the book in sparring, but a dull jabotron in actual fights. It's what you do in the actual fight that counts. Calzaghe could certainly hit, but his career was predicated on his amazing engine and combination punching.

We have to also accept that in some respects Calzaghe was his own worst enemy, he was pathologically afraid of losing, he admitted as much, and as s result some big fights in his prime went begging. I'm not saying it was entirely his fault, but fights with Ottke, beyer, et al didnt materialize, and Jo refused to travel to the US for big fights citing fear of flying, until that mysteriously evaporated at the end of his career. .

Calzaghe was an exceptional fighter, but I've always felt he wasted too much of his prime on very soft defences and there were missed opportunities.

[mickey1975]

This is getting ridiculous now.

It has, James. But if Alex Arthur and Booth are saying it there must be something in it?

I'm not saying the guy couldnt punch, far from it, especially early on in his career, I'm just saying soarring isnt actual fighting, and I think calzaghes powers taking on a mythical status here. Matthew Barney was apparently an aggressive killing machine with every shot in the book in sparring, but a dull jabotron in actual fights. It's what you do in the actual fight that counts. Calzaghe could certainly hit, but his career was predicated on his amazing engine and combination punching.

We have to also accept that in some respects Calzaghe was his own worst enemy, he was pathologically afraid of losing, he admitted as much, and as s result some big fights in his prime went begging. I'm not saying it was entirely his fault, but fights with Ottke, beyer, et al didnt materialize, and Jo refused to travel to the US for big fights citing fear of flying, until that mysteriously evaporated at the end of his career. .

Calzaghe was an exceptional fighter, but I've always felt he wasted too much of his prime on very soft defences and there were missed opportunities.

I agree, could of been a great, and the stories I’ve heard suggest he should have been. Much, much better puncher than people know. Far harder than any super middleweight from Britain. And you know I’m a huge Wharton fan....

[jamesmcdonnell]

I'd say his toughness is underrated, only really saw him badly hurt once really, and that was early on against Eubank. The michell knockdown looked heavy, but he practically leapt up and his head was totally clear.

[mickey1975]

I'd say his toughness is underrated, only really saw him badly hurt once really, and that was early on against Eubank. The michell knockdown looked heavy, but he practically leapt up and his head was totally clear.

I thought Eubank had him in the last minute.

[margaret thatcher]

I just rewatched the last round, he was nothing close to gone in the last minute and was getting the better of that for the most part, he got rocked seconds from the bell by an overhand right but time was basically done

though i cant say he looked more hurt there than when for example mitchell dropped him

[margaret thatcher]

and here's an overhand right like the eubank fight, but that actually puts joe down

[margaret thatcher]

and always makes me to realize that old man eubank there with a long hard career of 50 fights was only 32

[Wee Tommy]

It has, James. But if Alex Arthur and Booth are saying it there must be something in it?

I'm not saying the guy couldnt punch, far from it, especially early on in his career, I'm just saying soarring isnt actual fighting, and I think calzaghes powers taking on a mythical status here. Matthew Barney was apparently an aggressive killing machine with every shot in the book in sparring, but a dull jabotron in actual fights. It's what you do in the actual fight that counts. Calzaghe could certainly hit, but his career was predicated on his amazing engine and combination punching.

We have to also accept that in some respects Calzaghe was his own worst enemy, he was pathologically afraid of losing, he admitted as much, and as s result some big fights in his prime went begging. I'm not saying it was entirely his fault, but fights with Ottke, beyer, et al didnt materialize, and Jo refused to travel to the US for big fights citing fear of flying, until that mysteriously evaporated at the end of his career. .

Calzaghe was an exceptional fighter, but I've always felt he wasted too much of his prime on very soft defences and there were missed opportunities.

I agree, could of been a great, and the stories I’ve heard suggest he should have been. Much, much better puncher than people know. Far harder than any super middleweight from Britain. And you know I’m a huge Wharton fan....

He obviously couldn’t tell everyone how bad his hands actually were, would be ridiculous in boxing to do so. That he had the wins he did with broken hands says more about him than his soft defenses.

Alex said not only was he a heavy puncher but he’s never trained with anyone so fast and so fit. He’s an absolute freak of a guy himself! The shape he’s still in now is incredible.

[Deserter]

I'm not saying the guy couldnt punch, far from it, especially early on in his career, I'm just saying soarring isnt actual fighting, and I think calzaghes powers taking on a mythical status here. Matthew Barney was apparently an aggressive killing machine with every shot in the book in sparring, but a dull jabotron in actual fights. It's what you do in the actual fight that counts. Calzaghe could certainly hit, but his career was predicated on his amazing engine and combination punching.

I hear what you're saying James, as we all know the stories of gym kings, however I think it's a mistake to include Calzaghe in those ranks. What you've got that's different here is clear evidence in terms of his amateur career and early pro career to substantiate accounts from credible sources like Booth and Arthur that he had power to burn. It's the equally well documented hand problems that led to changes in his style, rather than an inability to carry that power up through the ranks - you can literally see him change the way he throws shots as his career evolves (hence the later accusations of slapping). All pretty clear-cut, and a million miles away from those who were meant to punch like a mule in the gym but couldn't necessarily reproduce it on fight night.
Agree regarding his career though, because as great as it was, he could have achieved more given his talent. His own worst enemy at times.

[Coco]

I'm not saying the guy couldnt punch, far from it, especially early on in his career, I'm just saying soarring isnt actual fighting, and I think calzaghes powers taking on a mythical status here. Matthew Barney was apparently an aggressive killing machine with every shot in the book in sparring, but a dull jabotron in actual fights. It's what you do in the actual fight that counts. Calzaghe could certainly hit, but his career was predicated on his amazing engine and combination punching.

I hear what you're saying James, as we all know the stories of gym kings, however I think it's a mistake to include Calzaghe in those ranks. What you've got that's different here is clear evidence in terms of his amateur career and early pro career to substantiate accounts from credible sources like Booth and Arthur that he had power to burn. It's the equally well documented hand problems that led to changes in his style, rather than an inability to carry that power up through the ranks - you can literally see him change the way he throws shots as his career evolves (hence the later accusations of slapping). All pretty clear-cut, and a million miles away from those who were meant to punch like a mule in the gym but couldn't necessarily reproduce it on fight night.
Agree regarding his career though, because as great as it was, he could have achieved more given his talent. His own worst enemy at times.

Also apart from power, which he had in abundance, it was his timing and speed, his opponents just never saw them coming.
Also he got away a lot with grabbing the back of the opponents head and pulling them on to the shot before his hands went.

[coghaugen11]

and always makes me to realize that old man eubank there with a long hard career of 50 fights was only 32

Just turned 31

[Controversial]

Do you think JC's hand problems actually made him better in other areas because he couldn't rely on power anymore?

[Ruthless-RKO]

Joe Calzaghe Hits 50 – How Great Was “The Pride Of Wales?”

“Just as a great fighter. Everybody wants to be a great fighter, don’t they? And I never shied away from a fight, even when I got hurt, I always came back for more,” Joe Calzaghe speaking to Sky Sports on how he’d like to be remembered.

Former super-middleweight and light-heavyweight king Joe Calzaghe today celebrates his 50th birthday. Having retired in 2008, this after back-to-back wins in America, over legends Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones Jr, Calzaghe sure has some great career to look back on. Joe basically did it all: he retired with an unbeaten record, he fought and beat every man he was supposed to fight and beat (with the possible exception of Carl Froch; these two would-be rivals reaching their peak and prime at different times), he unified the super-middleweight title, 168 being his ideal fighting weight, and Calzaghe always entertained.

46-0, with the WBA/WBC, WBO and Ring Magazine titles held at 168, with The Ring belt also captured at 175 pounds, Calzaghe’s resume boasts wins over – (in order of wins being achieved) Chris Eubank, Robin Reid (in a perhaps surprisingly tough and close one), Charles Brewer, Byron Mitchell (an underrated, short and sweet slugfest), Jell Lacy, Sakio Bika, Mikkel Kessler, Hopkins and Jones.

That’s greatness.

And Calzaghe, who came up in a small, ramshackle gym his dad ran in Newbridge, Wales, achieved it all while serving the paying public with some awesome action fights. Possessing astonishing conditioning, fast hands, the ability to pump out 100 punches a round in some of his fights (see the masterclass win over Lacy and the unification win over Kessler), Joe also had a solid chin and, for when he was knocked down (as he was four times during his career, by Mitchell, by Kabary Salem, by Hopkins and by Jones) he had hugely impressive recuperative powers.

Calzaghe passed his first “gut-check” in the 1997 fight with Eubank. Taken, as he said himself, to “dark places,” Calzaghe proved during the course of those 12 hard, exhausting rounds, to himself most importantly, that he had what was needed to reach the top. Battles with hand trouble hindered Joe, even threatened to ruin his career at one point – Calzaghe, who had already been forced to postpone the Lacy fight due to a hand injury, wanted to pull out again before the March 2006 fight that turned him into a star – but Calzaghe’s career eventually bloomed in fine style.

Calzaghe did not become a star for some time, but the Lacy fight and his utter annihilation of the so-called next big thing did it. The excellent win over Kessler might have been Joe’s finest hour, while the wins over Hopkins and Jones Jr were the icing on the top of one honestly baked, naturally produced cake. Adding to Calzaghe’s legacy is the number of 168 world title retentions he made – 21 in all. Yes, some of Joe’s challengers were not elite material, yet staying on top for so long (a little over 10 long years as super-middleweight champion) takes some doing.

There was talk of Calzaghe sticking around and trying to break Rocky Marciano’s 49-0 record, yet Joe sensibly walked away on top, on his own terms. Today, Calzaghe is ranked by many as THE greatest super-middleweight in history, while he is ranked as one of the greatest British fighters of all-time; with some experts going as far as to say Joe deserves to be ranked as THE greatest British fighter ever.

Calzaghe was super-special. Of that there is zero doubt. As far as how he said he would like to be remembered, Calzaghe has got what he wanted.

[stujones]

Joe had an iron chin, but I would say he was quite badly hurt when he went down va RJJ. RJJ did not have any ambition to win that fight

[Wales]

I’ve not read all of this thread

The first post doesn’t allow us to answer the question.

Joe calzaghe - underrated or overrated?
To answer that you need to define where you rate him.
If you have him p4p #1 of all time - overrated
If you have him as a lucky welsh plant-pot - underrated

I’m surprised at some of the comments here about calzaghe.

Firstly he never ducked anyone - calzaghe never turned down a deal for a fight agains someone superior. calzaghe came into the scene when promotional politics went from bit of a problem between two suites wideboys to global TV networks, PPV, commissioning bodies getting heavy etc… sky were really finding their feet and getting experiential growth around that time

Sky knew they had a superstar that had to keep on winning to make them money
Warren had sky who made him money

[Wales]

Calzaghe held the SMW title for 11 years

He went in as underdog against Lacy. Put on one of the best boxing performances of all time and a beating that ended his career.

Beat the undefeated Kessler handily .

He went to vegas and beat Hopkins .
6 months after losing to calzaghe Hopkins produced one of his best performances ever against Pavlik (basically ended his career). Hopkins continued to win world titles for another 6 years .

He never fought Ottke at SMW … who else did he miss at SMW? And ottke was a f0cking plant pot

[Riddick Bowie]

I’ve not read all of this thread

The first post doesn’t allow us to answer the question.

Joe calzaghe - underrated or overrated?
To answer that you need to define where you rate him.
If you have him p4p #1 of all time - overrated
If you have him as a lucky welsh plant-pot - underrated

I’m surprised at some of the comments here about calzaghe.

Firstly he never ducked anyone - calzaghe never turned down a deal for a fight agains someone superior. calzaghe came into the scene when promotional politics went from bit of a problem between two suites wideboys to global TV networks, PPV, commissioning bodies getting heavy etc… sky were really finding their feet and getting experiential growth around that time

Sky knew they had a superstar that had to keep on winning to make them money
Warren had sky who made him money

Never ducked anyone? 'Sick Note' pulled out of tons of fights over the years. He was content to stay at home with his paper title slapping around cans for years.

Can anyone imagine greats like Robinson, Ali or Leonard being satisfied doing that?

Beating Kessler and two 40 year old Names at the end of that dismal decade doesn't validate all the awful opponents and years of low ambition.

[Ruthless-RKO]

I’ve not read all of this thread

The first post doesn’t allow us to answer the question.

Joe calzaghe - underrated or overrated?
To answer that you need to define where you rate him.
If you have him p4p #1 of all time - overrated
If you have him as a lucky welsh plant-pot - underrated

I’m surprised at some of the comments here about calzaghe.

Firstly he never ducked anyone - calzaghe never turned down a deal for a fight agains someone superior. calzaghe came into the scene when promotional politics went from bit of a problem between two suites wideboys to global TV networks, PPV, commissioning bodies getting heavy etc… sky were really finding their feet and getting experiential growth around that time

Sky knew they had a superstar that had to keep on winning to make them money
Warren had sky who made him money

Never ducked anyone? 'Sick Note' pulled out of tons of fights over the years. He was content to stay at home with his paper title slapping around cans for years.

Can anyone imagine greats like Robinson, Ali or Leonard being satisfied doing that?

Beating Kessler and two 40 year old Names at the end of that dismal decade doesn't validate all the awful opponents and years of low ambition.

Yeh. Crease hit the nail with his post..

It's difficult to say.

Calzaghe had a reputation as "stay at home Joe" from the Americans because he didn't travel to the states for any of his defenses. As such, he did struggle to attract top talent over to the UK. So for many years, even though he was a World Champion - he was something of a quiet man when it came to boxing circles.

Calzaghe's legacy (if we are being honest) only started getting considered as strong when he systematically outboxed Jeff Lacy. It was then massively strengthened when he chose to risk his WBO title and unify against Mikkel Kessler - the most dangerous man in the division. Calzaghe did well to win that fight, a prime Kessler would have been bad news for anyone.

And it's often pointed out that Joe actually defeated Hopkins and RJJ (the 2 biggest names in boxing during Joe's time in the sport) but whilst those 2 victories to count for something, no-one in their right mind could say that Joe fought a better caliber of opponent that the 2 world-class fighters who BHop and RJJ were.

[JamesPhilips]

I always find yanks a bit hypocritical when they criticise fightersfor not leaving their own country. How many times has Mayweather fought abroad?

Joe was genuinely scared of flying also.

I think Calzaghe underperformed in many ways due to his dad's ancient training methods and the fact he never had proper nutritional or supplement advice. He's the one fighter im 100 % confident never juiced as well. His body compared to modern fighters is testament to lack of sports nutrition advice. He barely looked like an athlete. I wonder whether his injuries and hand problems were also related to a lack of professional advice.

Calzaghe wqs a real banger as an amateur.

[emallini]

Why do people mention the Jones win like it means anything? Jones was completely shot. Glen Johnson did a better job on shot Roy 4 years earlier.

[stujones]

I’ve not read all of this thread

The first post doesn’t allow us to answer the question.

Joe calzaghe - underrated or overrated?
To answer that you need to define where you rate him.
If you have him p4p #1 of all time - overrated
If you have him as a lucky welsh plant-pot - underrated

I’m surprised at some of the comments here about calzaghe.

Firstly he never ducked anyone - calzaghe never turned down a deal for a fight agains someone superior. calzaghe came into the scene when promotional politics went from bit of a problem between two suites wideboys to global TV networks, PPV, commissioning bodies getting heavy etc… sky were really finding their feet and getting experiential growth around that time

Sky knew they had a superstar that had to keep on winning to make them money
Warren had sky who made him money

Never ducked anyone? 'Sick Note' pulled out of tons of fights over the years. He was content to stay at home with his paper title slapping around cans for years.

Can anyone imagine greats like Robinson, Ali or Leonard being satisfied doing that?

Beating Kessler and two 40 year old Names at the end of that dismal decade doesn't validate all the awful opponents and years of low ambition.

Yes - and I hate bringing it up all the time. Joe and Sven Ottke won their belts are around the same time and Sven retired as a champion 10 freaking years after he won it (or close to that).

I do think it would have been a far trickier fight than people give credit (although Joe would have been favourite) but they should have fought.

Ottke gets a lot of justified ridicule for some of the more controversial elements of his career - but he also held legitimate wins against very very credible fighters. I think some people never watched his fights and thought "oh it went the distance he must have got a gift" but some of his fights I do think "how the hell does anyone think he lost this" - he did a clinic on Byron Mitchell as an example. Aside from Kessler and Hopkins - Ottke's resume is actually superior to Joe's in terms of better wins.

And there was another guy who was a reigning world champion for 5 of Joe's ten year reign (in two spells) - Markus Beyer.

[Lenny Cravats]

Overrated, I think. It's difficult to rank Joe anywhere as his opponent list is woeful.

[Riddick Bowie]

I always find yanks a bit hypocritical when they criticise fightersfor not leaving their own country. How many times has Mayweather fought abroad?

Joe was genuinely scared of flying also.

Mayweather was fighting in the US, where the top class fighters were. Calzaghe was staying at home, where there was a dearth of quality fighters and he was slapping round cans year after year.

Why did Joe's fear of flying suddenly disappear once Hopkins and Jones were old? I doubt it was a plane that was scaring Joe when Roy offered to come down to super middle to accommodate him in 2001.