What if Joe louis had not come along?

[Ambling Alp II]

Thought this might be fin. What would have happened if Joe Louis had never came a long? He was the champion for a very long time. Would some other guy have been the same for a really long time?

Hard to imagine Braddock keep the title for too long. But then what? would Schmeling get it back? Would someone like Buddy Baer win the title at some point? Would there have been several different champions having the title for a short amount of time?

[oogiebe]

Walcott would've been champion sooner if given the shot.
Several guys hanging around would've alternated holding the best including: Baer; Schmeling; Braddock; maybe even Conn.
Might be that a black man wouldn't get a shot for longer as Louis was perfectly groomed to erase the bitterness of Jack Johnson holding the belt.
Certainly all us boxing die-hards would've missed out on such a boxing machine as Joe.

[goose 5]

Very interesting question. If given a shot, Jimmy Bivins would have been a great champ. I suspect the title would have bounced around a lot in the late 30's and early 40's. Lots of guys were on a par.

[Caractacus]

what if Gene Tunney at not retired in 1929 at age 31 yrs ?
( but had fought for at least 3 more years)

[Ambling Alp II]

Not what I was asking.

[Caractacus]

well shheeeyat,
I would say Max Baer would make a comeback ,knocks out Joe Louis (with a good hand and dropping his partying)
and fought up to 1944 (at age 35)
Joe Louis may never had recieved a shot at the title possibly.

[HomicideHenry]

Max Schmeling would have most likely become heavyweight champion of the world again since he was scheduled to face Jim Braddock but for political reasons was pushed aside for Braddock to defend the title against Joe Louis.

This in effect would have made the heavyweight championship of the world become a propaganda tool for Nazi Germany, and one could only hope that Max Baer would have gotten a rematch against Schmeling and became 2x heavyweight champion too.

Baer would have most likely lost the title to someone like Tommy Loughran who would have been the first light heavyweight champion to have become heavyweight champion instead of Roy Jones--- and he would have probably lost it to Billy Conn, who ultimately would have lost it to either Ezzard Charles or Jersey Joe Walcott.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

[oogiebe]

Max Schmeling would have most likely become heavyweight champion of the world again since he was scheduled to face Jim Braddock but for political reasons was pushed aside for Braddock to defend the title against Joe Louis.

This in effect would have made the heavyweight championship of the world become a propaganda tool for Nazi Germany, and one could only hope that Max Baer would have gotten a rematch against Schmeling and became 2x heavyweight champion too.

Baer would have most likely lost the title to someone like Tommy Loughran who would have been the first light heavyweight champion to have become heavyweight champion instead of Roy Jones--- and he would have probably lost it to Billy Conn, who ultimately would have lost it to either Ezzard Charles or Jersey Joe Walcott.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

Schmeling was never going to get another shot no matter what.

[Caractacus]

Jersey Joe Wallcott would probably have become HW Champ in 1940.

[HomicideHenry]

Max Schmeling would have most likely become heavyweight champion of the world again since he was scheduled to face Jim Braddock but for political reasons was pushed aside for Braddock to defend the title against Joe Louis.

This in effect would have made the heavyweight championship of the world become a propaganda tool for Nazi Germany, and one could only hope that Max Baer would have gotten a rematch against Schmeling and became 2x heavyweight champion too.

Baer would have most likely lost the title to someone like Tommy Loughran who would have been the first light heavyweight champion to have become heavyweight champion instead of Roy Jones--- and he would have probably lost it to Billy Conn, who ultimately would have lost it to either Ezzard Charles or Jersey Joe Walcott.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

Schmeling was never going to get another shot no matter what.

Because of what was going on in Europe, he most definitely wasn't going to get a title shot. However there is a famous cartoon of Schmeling standing in an empty arena for a championship match that would never happen.



But as we all know it did not happen because of political reasons. This was an issue that was bigger than boxing itself and Braddock was forced into facing Louis instead, and the Cinderella Man got a cut of Louis's purses for the rest of the Brown Bomber's career for doing the sidestep of Schmeling.

Much as everybody loved Braddock it was one thing beating the inconsistent, wildly sloppy Baer it was a whole other kettle of fish believing that he could beat Schmeling fair and square especially when the German had already beaten Joe Louis. It was a gamble, in the hopes, that if the title was in Louis's hands he might learn enough in the interim to be able to defeat Schmeling if they were to fight again.

And ultimately Louis's own words came to fruition when he said, "He (Schmeling) is 3 years older and I am 3 years smarter," because Louis absolutely annihilated him in the return bout. Although one can make a serious argument that the referee allowed Louis to get away with repeated fouls. Nevertheless, it's quite obvious that Louis was not going to be denied victory he simply improved way too much since 1936 when he lost to the German.

But yes, Schmeling was never going to get a shot at the championship. However since this is a hypothetical question about what would have happened if Joe Louis never existed, it's quite possible that the German would have fought Jim Braddock for the title.

Or they could have forced a rematch between Braddock and Baer, in the hopes that Madcap Maxie would have regained the crown, and since the German lost to Baer previously it might have been a deadlock to keep the title in America. Or, they could have had Schmeling rematch Baer, with the winner to get a shot at Braddock.

[oogiebe]

Braddock wasn't forced into anything. It was an incredibly lucrative deal for him.

[bwu]

Two scenarios: 1. Schmeling’s people make Joe Gould an offer he can’t refuse. Braddock drops the title to Max. The Germans immediately order Schmeling back home and keep him there. He proceeds to defend against third-rate Europeans for the duration of the war.

After WW2, he comes back to the U.S. and, beyond shot, he loses the championship to Walcott or Charles. The timeline re-sets to what we know in the present day.

2. Refusing Schmeling, Braddock’s only money match is Baer again. Max trains for a change and wins the championship back by knockout. He defends once or twice a year against names we know: Schmeling, Farr, maybe Galento. He drops it in ‘41 to Billy Conn. The belt is mothballed for the war. Conn loses it in the late ‘40s to Charles or Walcott and again the timeline re-sets to what we know in the present day.

[HomicideHenry]

Braddock wasn't forced into anything. It was an incredibly lucrative deal for him.

A lot of incentives were given to him, yes, but he was basically forced into going with Louis, instead of facing the #1 contender Schmeling.

They (the media & boxing pundits) would have portrayed him as basically being a traitor to America had he gone through with the match with Schmeling. Especially if he lost the contest, which was pretty likely.

But to sidestep Schmeling, who was being branded as a Nazi, was seen as a patriotic duty and to face Louis instead who most everybody liked was seen as the patriotic thing to do because win or lose it kept the title in America.

To act like Braddock had a choice in the matter is not necessarily true because his back was against a wall politically and socially. Now, had Schmeling publicly renounced Germany and became an American citizen the optics of the whole thing would have been okay, but he didn't do that.

From a sports perspective, it was the wrong thing to have done by not giving Schmeling the title shot he earned. However, from a moral and ethical standpoint, it was the right decision to have been made by not giving him the title shot he earned because the consequences would have been absolutely disastrous.

I think, in a way, it wounded Braddock personally because he was afraid of nobody. Win or lose he gave everything he could. To sidestep anybody was not in his nature to do. Which is why I think the incentives was so steep. Then again, I think he knew down deep that he wasn't long for the game and most likely would have lost to either man so he had to make the decision that was best for boxing as a whole.

It was simply better to pass the torch to Louis than to Schmeling --- and I think that sacrifice that he made was the reason why Joe Louis said Jim Braddock was the bravest man he ever fought.

[Cholo_cws]

Max Schmeling would have most likely become heavyweight champion of the world again since he was scheduled to face Jim Braddock but for political reasons was pushed aside for Braddock to defend the title against Joe Louis.

This in effect would have made the heavyweight championship of the world become a propaganda tool for Nazi Germany, and one could only hope that Max Baer would have gotten a rematch against Schmeling and became 2x heavyweight champion too.

Baer would have most likely lost the title to someone like Tommy Loughran who would have been the first light heavyweight champion to have become heavyweight champion instead of Roy Jones--- and he would have probably lost it to Billy Conn, who ultimately would have lost it to either Ezzard Charles or Jersey Joe Walcott.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

You mean Michael Spinks

[HomicideHenry]

Max Schmeling would have most likely become heavyweight champion of the world again since he was scheduled to face Jim Braddock but for political reasons was pushed aside for Braddock to defend the title against Joe Louis.

This in effect would have made the heavyweight championship of the world become a propaganda tool for Nazi Germany, and one could only hope that Max Baer would have gotten a rematch against Schmeling and became 2x heavyweight champion too.

Baer would have most likely lost the title to someone like Tommy Loughran who would have been the first light heavyweight champion to have become heavyweight champion instead of Roy Jones--- and he would have probably lost it to Billy Conn, who ultimately would have lost it to either Ezzard Charles or Jersey Joe Walcott.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

You mean Michael Spinks

Yes, you're right. Spinks not Jones did it first.

Jones was the first man since Fitzsimmons to have been a middleweight champion to become heavyweight champion, and the second light heavyweight to have become heavyweight champion since Spinks.

[oogiebe]

Braddock wasn't forced into anything. It was an incredibly lucrative deal for him.

A lot of incentives were given to him, yes, but he was basically forced into going with Louis, instead of facing the #1 contender Schmeling.

They (the media & boxing pundits) would have portrayed him as basically being a traitor to America had he gone through with the match with Schmeling. Especially if he lost the contest, which was pretty likely.

But to sidestep Schmeling, who was being branded as a Nazi, was seen as a patriotic duty and to face Louis instead who most everybody liked was seen as the patriotic thing to do because win or lose it kept the title in America.

To act like Braddock had a choice in the matter is not necessarily true because his back was against a wall politically and socially. Now, had Schmeling publicly renounced Germany and became an American citizen the optics of the whole thing would have been okay, but he didn't do that.

From a sports perspective, it was the wrong thing to have done by not giving Schmeling the title shot he earned. However, from a moral and ethical standpoint, it was the right decision to have been made by not giving him the title shot he earned because the consequences would have been absolutely disastrous.

I think, in a way, it wounded Braddock personally because he was afraid of nobody. Win or lose he gave everything he could. To sidestep anybody was not in his nature to do. Which is why I think the incentives was so steep. Then again, I think he knew down deep that he wasn't long for the game and most likely would have lost to either man so he had to make the decision that was best for boxing as a whole.

It was simply better to pass the torch to Louis than to Schmeling --- and I think that sacrifice that he made was the reason why Joe Louis said Jim Braddock was the bravest man he ever fought.

he wasn't "forced" at all. Stop the BS.

[HomicideHenry]

If political pressure isn't force to your mind then you are a moron, period. Full stop.

[oogiebe]

If political pressure isn't force to your mind then you are a moron, period. Full stop.

If a piece of your opponent's future wages isn't the better deal to you, then you've proved who the moron is!

[oogiebe]

Braddock was given a huge incentive to defend his title against Joe Louis, with a contract guaranteeing him 10% of all Louis's earnings from future title fights. Braddock lost but Louis went on to make 25 title defenses and the Cinderella Man was made for life.

[Ambling Alp II]

With no joe Louis in the picture, Braddock probably would have fought either Schmeling or Baer.

Normally I would pick Schmeling to beat Braddock, but Braddock was fighting at the highest level of his career. would have been interesting.

There is a chance that Schmeling would have won the title back. Or Baer. Maybe Baer fights Schmeling again after won of them wins the title back.
WWII sort of throws a monkey wrench into everything. The title have been on ice for a few years.
After WWII, Walcott probably would have won the title.

[Ambling Alp II]

Very interesting question. If given a shot, Jimmy Bivins would have been a great champ. I suspect the title would have bounced around a lot in the late 30's and early 40's. Lots of guys were on a par.

Bivins was capable of beating of these guys. Other black fighters like Turkey Thompson and Elmer Ray would have had a serious chance of given a shot.

Assuming that Schmeling didn't win and not defend it, there could have been several champs until WWII. Then whoever had it by 1941 would have it until at least 1945. Then probably loses to Walcott.

We would have thought about a guy in an entirely different light had they won the title, even if he lost it right away.

[Caractacus]

Braddock was given a huge incentive to defend his title against Joe Louis, with a contract guaranteeing him 10% of all Louis's earnings from future title fights. Braddock lost but Louis went on to make 25 title defenses and the Cinderella Man was made for life.

I had read where Braddock never received anything afterwards.
That Louis's promoter (who also promoted the fights at Madison Square Garden) had welched on Braddock.

[Jaywheel]

We wouldn't have these small cakes:

[oogiebe]

Braddock was given a huge incentive to defend his title against Joe Louis, with a contract guaranteeing him 10% of all Louis's earnings from future title fights. Braddock lost but Louis went on to make 25 title defenses and the Cinderella Man was made for life.

I had read where Braddock never received anything afterwards.
That Louis's promoter (who also promoted the fights at Madison Square Garden) had welched on Braddock.

Not true. He used all the money's he made off that deal to found and grow a very lucrative marine equipment surplus business.

[DrDuke]

What's interesting about Joe Louis, he cleaned up the division very quickly and the vast remaining part of his reign was filled with the lesser opoossition. The late 30s and the early 40s were comparably weak. Baer and Schmeling could bounce back for a while even despite being well past prime. There could be few short reigns of the lesser guys like Buddy Baer or even Tony Galento. Billy Conn could make a decent reign in the early 40s. Walcott would become a champion earlier.