Modern Day "All-Time Heavyweight" Tournament

HomicideHenry
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Post by HomicideHenry »

Thanks Ezzard! :TU:

Btw, can you run a computer fight between OLEG MASKAEV and HASIM RAHMAN? Just for fun to compare to the actual fight that is coming up?

Collins wants to see it run ONE time, and I also want you to run it THREE times, seeing who wins two out of three----and see which is more accurate to the truth.

If that is ok with you? I been asked to do it, but with people questioning my motives and all, I figured I would have someone else do it.
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Post by JC »

From the screen shot the game seems to somewhat overestimate Vitali's hitting power.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

I think it's just as a "demo" of what it looks like, not really so much that Klitschko has that great of power. Course, the computer can be just looking at his major strengths and weaknesses, which implied that his punching power was his main strength.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

Btw, here is a picture from the 1969 SUPERFIGHT between Marciano and Ali, this is one of the few pics that were taken, so it is kind of rare. I am still searching for one picture that has Marciano throwing a punch and Ali's head being knocked back, but no dice. Considering this tournament's main event is Marciano vs Ali, I thought maybe a picture could help those, who haven't seen the actual staged bout between the two men, could give them an idea of what it was like.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/Pr ... iRocky.jpg

As you can see Ali, as usual, used his long jab to try and keep Marciano at bay, while Marciano used his crouching and bobbing and weaving techniques to try and get inside to the body---he (Marciano) also pulled his head back quite a few times like Jake LaMotta used to do, as to not get hit effectively.
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Post by Expug »

Both fightin southpaw there.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

I think what is so remarkable is that this computer-fight was so huge an event, that many people thought that this was the real deal, that Ali and Marciano had actually fought one another in secret.

There were write-ups in the newspapers that Marciano was getting back into physical condition, that he was looking good, and that Ali was looking good, and there was even people and critics betting who would win this fight. It is amazing that the interest in an Ali-Marciano bout was so huge, two undefeated champions, one of whom won the "All-Time" title in a computer series and the other disliked it. What maybe all the more amazing is, considering how old Marciano was, and people were thinking this was a legit fight, there were people who actually gave Marciano a great chance at beating Ali, who was 27, before he ever faced Frazier and Foreman and Norton.

Looking back on it all, I do think it could have been highly possible to of had an actual bout staged; if only people would have realised that the state of Georgia had no Athletic Commission at the time (that's how Ali was able to fight Jerry Quarry in 1970, as Ali was banned from fighting anywhere that had an athletic commision).

If Ali had knocked Marciano's wig off one more time :lol: I am dead certain that Marciano would have swore revenge and would have tried to have made it happen. Though I don't think Marciano at 46 would of had a great chance to have beaten Ali---though if there ever was a time to have done it, it would have been during Ali's exile.

Watching the SUPERFIGHT, even though the two men were more or less sparring, you could tell that Ali was having problems keeping Marciano off, and there were moments that both men were really throwing hard and fast punches at their bodies and heads---and it does make you wonder, that if Marciano at 46 could get close enough to Ali to have hit him with several body punches and that Ali had trouble trying to hit him cleanly, what could a prime Marciano do?

To Ali's own statements he couldn't imagine how strong Marciano could have been in his prime, as the 46 year old man before him bruised and battered his elbows, chest and arms so badly---and they were just sparring for a computer fight.

Then of course there is the wig story, as to where Woroner and Pacheco claim that Ali was dropped to the floor by a real body shot, while others say that Marciano just doubled Ali over---irregardless it is a testament to Marciano's power, that even at 46, he could hurt someone badly if he could get close enough to them.

But that's what really surprises me, is that in 1969, people thought that this was the real thing, and that many people betted on Marciano to win an actual fight with Ali, irregardless of the great age difference.

It's an amazing story.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

IRM

Will do...

I'll do it Saturday but then I'm off on holiday for 2 weeks. Just so you know. I think my version dates from 2002/2003 so the ratings for rahman and maskaev will be from then.

Thanks for your touney. see you on the boards...

Ezzard says he will do it...but I want EVERYONE to realise that on his computer Rahman and Maskaev are being judged by their ranking in the 2002-2003 census, not by the present rankings---so if the result does not turn out like the real result, then don't blame Ezzard or Me, blame the computer version that is being used, because it isn't up to date.

So, relatively we will just have to look at these two men's progress since 2003, and judge for ourselves who has had the better opponents and wins.

Rahman has went 6-0-1 (4) since 2003, his best win being a 12 round decision over Monte Barrett and a draw with James Toney. His KO wins were against questionable opposition in Rob Calloway, Mario Cawley and Kali Meehan.

Maskaev has went 5-0-0 (3) since 2003, his best win being a 12 round decision over Sinan Samil Sam and a 12 round decision over David Defiagbon. His KO's have been against questionable opposition in Quinn Navarre, Craig Tomlinson and Livin Castillo.

Rahman is now the WBC champion for the 2nd time, though he did not win it from Klitschko, but rather by default. Statitically Maskaev has the edge in KO power, though he has not faced the same kind of opposition as Rahman has.
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Post by Ezzard »

IRM

I will post result tommorrow but I'm pretty sure that Maskaev's ratings are quite low...

Of course the best simulation would have ratings compiled by a ballot of boxrec members.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

Well, taking into consideration in 2002-2003 Rahman was ranked #1 in the WBC, #1 in the IBF in 2002. In 2003 he was ranked #3 by the WBA, #2 by the WBC and #4 in the IBF. Oleg Maskaev was not ranked in the top 30 in the WBC, top 12 in the WBA and top 12 in the IBF in both 2002 and 2003. So it hasn't been until this year that Maskaev has really blossomed as a fighter---though in 2000 he was highly considered to be a potential contender as he defeated Rahman by upset KO and had some good wins until he was derailed by fringe contender Corey Sanders.

Ironically Rahman before he upset Lewis was not known as a real threat to the title, but became a name player as he defeated Lewis, and after a few years of winning and losing some, Rahman has become champion by default and has had one successful defense, though rather disappointing.

My own prediction is, that Maskaev has a 75-25 chance in doing what he did in 2000 all over again, I believe he could win, as Rahman is quite inconsistant and he's been known to falter in high pressure fights, his chin is questionable, at least to me---as he failed to take punishment from Lewis, Maskaev and was felled by Ruiz, whose not known for his power.

Maskaev on the other hand ever since he lost to Sanders, he had to rebuild himself and try to get back the approval of the fans and critics, and has had some good wins, and beat highly considered Sam and prospect Defiagbon, the question now is if those are enough to put him in with Rahman---but figuring that the first time they fought and it was both on short notice, and Maskaev blew him away then---now they more prepared, so it will be more competitive, but I think the outcome will be the same again.

Maskaev wants it more, I believe, and Rahman is now under more pressure than he has ever been, and as we all know, he didn't ahndle pressure well with the Lewis rematch and build up to that event, but Rahman is a decent enough fighter to make a fight of it---but I don't think he will win.

Hopefully the computer will give a slight insight as to who might win this, though it is based on rankings from 2002-2003, but really looking at who these men have fought since that time, the competition is almost the same in ability and worth; so I think it is even, with maybe a slight edge to Rahman in facing Toney, arguably his best opponent since Lewis, though he didn't do enough to beat the former Middleweight.
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Post by Ezzard »

IRM

Maskaev WKO 2
Rahman WTKO 5
Maskaev WTKO 9 (Something of a premature stoppage, Rahman ahead, both men had been dropped)

Rahman was the favourite in these fights, but didn't come in great shape for 1st.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

Okies, so according to the computer, despite Maskaev's low ranking in 2002-2003, he came out on top in two out of the three method that I have been using for this tournament. But alot has happened since 2003, but in my opinion other than Rahman getting the WBC belt by default, both men's calibre of opposition have been almost identical in worth and ability.

We will see how "accurate" the computer simulation is, compared to the real match. I am hoping that Maskaev does win, because if not, this will be as big a disappointment as when Murray Woroner did a computer prediction on Bob Foster and Joe Frazier

So we have three possible choices: Oleg Maskaev by KO early, Rahman by KO half way through the fight and Maskaev winning by KO late in the fight. Ironically enough the polls at FightNews.com have Maskaev winning by KO at 36% of the votes and Rahman winning by KO at 38% of the votes. So very close on the votes.

I would also like to comment on Murray Woroner's original 1967 computer tournament. I have listened to the majority of the radio broadcasts of these fights (they were also on the SUPERFIGHT dvd) and as interesting as they were, there were some fights I disagreed with, particuarly Louis vs Willard---which by the computer said Louis would win by KO in 14 rounds, myself it would have been much sooner, at least seven rounds or so.

And as much as I like Jim Jefferies, and knowing alot about his career, the fighter he fought the most similar to Ali was Jim Corbett, and Jefferies did chase down Corbett for 23 rounds until he finally knocked him out, but in a 15 round format, with Ali being faster than Corbett, I don't see Jefferies winning. Jefferies was far more athletic than people give him credit for, but I don't see him beating Ali. But according to the computer at the time Ali lost a 15 round decision to Jefferies.

I can't say computers can truly determine the outcome of a fight, but it's better than nothing, and maybe in the next 50 years a computer could be accurate enough to do so---but that's why I do a best two out of three, rather than run it once or twice, because that would be more accurate than doing a test run.

So I guess until the Rahman/Maskaev fight happens we will have to play the waiting game. For the sake of the tournament I hope the computer is right.


I guess we will have to wait 6 days until the RAHMAN/MASKAEV fight to judge how accurate the computer is...but until then I think the votes so far on our tournament are 3-1 Ali over Marciano and 1-1 (I think) between Ali and Joe Louis.

So, keep on the votes people, or at least make comments and predictions on the computer simulator picking Maskaev to win over Rahman, and give YOUR insight as to who do you think will win.
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Post by pundit »

Who would win Marciano vs. Marciano in these computer simulations? Marciano 3:0 or Marciano 2:1, or would there be draws? Would Marciano's granite chin allow him to get up when Marciano hits him with Susie Q?
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Post by HomicideHenry »

Pundit, don't make stupid comments please lol
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Post by pundit »

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Pundit, don't make stupid comments please lol
Try my best, but it's too late to make only thoughtful coms.... :D
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Post by pundit »

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/tb/imag ... screen.jpg


This is a screen of how it looks---the example above is Lennox Lewis vs Vitali Klitschko in a computer match---as each punch is landed it tells how "hurt" a fighter is, how "hard" the punches are thrown, etc. Much like Murry Woroner's NCR-315 computer was in determining who punched where and when.
Lewis has a weird haircut here.
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Post by Collins2000 »

pundit wrote:
IrishRufusMurphy wrote:http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/tb/imag ... screen.jpg


This is a screen of how it looks---the example above is Lennox Lewis vs Vitali Klitschko in a computer match---as each punch is landed it tells how "hurt" a fighter is, how "hard" the punches are thrown, etc. Much like Murry Woroner's NCR-315 computer was in determining who punched where and when.
Lewis has a weird haircut here.
What about the 'commentary'?

"Klitschko retreats into the upper corner."

I've never heard of an upper corner...

Then this nonsense:

"Lewis tries to double up on the jab but neither hit the mark.
He lands a strong jab!.
How is Lewis standing after that?"


Lewis is landing the jab on himself?

Sounds like that program has a few bugs in it to me.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

Like I said before that screen is just merely a demo, not every detail is as it is, just is an example. As far as the "he lands a jab" part, I think it meant Klitschko, but like I said it's a demo, just a screen that shows you what it looks like, not exactly how it is.
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Post by Collins2000 »

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Like I said before that screen is just merely a demo, not every detail is as it is, just is an example. As far as the "he lands a jab" part, I think it meant Klitschko, but like I said it's a demo, just a screen that shows you what it looks like, not exactly how it is.
OK. instead of teasing us with pictures of what it ISN'T and commentary that ISN'T from the game, why not post the pictures and commentary from the simulated result you gave me of Maskaev KO 2 Rahman?
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Post by HomicideHenry »

Ezzard was the one who did the computer simulation for Rahman/Maskaev not me. I asked him to do it because people are accusing me of 'fixing' the tournament and all, I already gace the link to the simulator's site, gave information as to how it works, as did Ezzard, put up a screenshot demo of what it's like---so iono what else you want. Five more days til Rahman/Maskaev, and we'll judge on the best two out of three results from the game to the actual fight, which were:

MASKAEV wins by KO in 2nd
RAHMAN wins by KO in 5th
MASKAEV wins by KO in 9th

So Maskaev by the computer, judging him by the 2002-2003 rankings of both fighters, should win anywhere from the 2nd to the 9th round by KO over Rahman. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. As far as you wanting to see screenshots of the computer simulations that Ezzard did, ask him to post them up, because I wasn't the one who did those.
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Post by Collins2000 »

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Ezzard was the one who did the computer simulation for Rahman/Maskaev not me. I asked him to do it because people are accusing me of 'fixing' the tournament and all, I already gace the link to the simulator's site, gave information as to how it works, as did Ezzard, put up a screenshot demo of what it's like---so iono what else you want. Five more days til Rahman/Maskaev, and we'll judge on the best two out of three results from the game to the actual fight, which were:

MASKAEV wins by KO in 2nd
RAHMAN wins by KO in 5th
MASKAEV wins by KO in 9th

So Maskaev by the computer, judging him by the 2002-2003 rankings of both fighters, should win anywhere from the 2nd to the 9th round by KO over Rahman. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. As far as you wanting to see screenshots of the computer simulations that Ezzard did, ask him to post them up, because I wasn't the one who did those.

No one accused you of rigging the so-called tournament. The most that you were accused of was changing the rules mid-way. Your contest - your rules as far as I am concerned. I couldn't care less who 'wins'. I've even forgot what the contest was about to be honest.

I'm interested in your long-winded 'story' about how a computer program can predict the results of a fight with any degree of certainty. I'm sorry if you are upset by my questions but if you come onto a public forum spouting this sort of nonsense you're gonna be asked to explain, Rupert.

You gave a long spiel as if you actually knew something about the subject but you've been back-peddling ever since. I can see now you have absolutely no idea of how this program works and it's just a 'black box' to you. Therefore, I won't waste my time addressing any more questions about it to you.

:TU:
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Post by HomicideHenry »

No. The rules have never changed through-out the duration of this tournament. I have explained time and time again of the rules, and time and time again you all don't seem to understand. Me and Ezzard have tried to explain how the program works, but nobody can get that either. I have posted up the link of the site so that everybody can judge for themselves----I never said that a computer can predict any fight with certainty, all I have ever said was that if votes are too close, that I would use a computer, like Murray Woroner did, to help even out the votes and whomever had the most votes, computer or not would move on in the tournament.

I have said before, that computera are not always correct, Bob Foster vs Joe Frazier proved that; but at same time, I don't believe Woroner or the programmers even bothered to put into the computer that Foster was making his first real move to HW against an undefeated champion knockout artist. So I don't hold the computer reliable, but the programmers responsible.

So, again, I will say this:

1.) The rules have never been altered in this tournament

2.) If the votes were too close, I used the simulator to help even out the votes to see who would move on in the tournament in a best two out of three method

3.) I have never said that computers are accurate, but I will admit to saying that I have said that I have used the simulator before for upcoming fights and surprisingly well with it, and that using a computer to 'determine' a winner is better than nothing---and that this simulator may not be as great as Murray Woroner's, but it is better than nothing.

4.) I have posted the link of the simulator site, and you can check into it for yourself, rather than raise your post count with mindless dribble

AND....the match(es) at hand were Marciano vs Ali and Ali vs Louis, was originally Marciano vs Ali, but with so many people doubting my methods I threw Louis in as well into the tournament finals.

And of course, the determination of how accurate the simulator is, with the upcoming match-up between Hasim Rahman and Oleg Maskaev; though the computer simulator (Ezzard's simulator anyways) used rankings from 2002-2003, rather than to the present rankings.

NOW...I hope that we can all talk about ALI vs MARCIANO, ALI vs LOUIS and RAHMAN vs MASKAEV, rather than try to belittle me, because I know that is what the intentions are.

So far I think the votes are 3-1 on Marciano vs Ali for Ali to win, and a tie vote between Ali and Louis.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIBAnzlGLTg


Here is a short clip from the SUPERFIGHT Marciano vs Ali, for those who never got to see the computer-fight from 1969 between the two, it's only a minute long clip, so I apologise if it isn't enough for everybody. But enjoy :TU:
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Post by AndreWardFan2006 »

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIBAnzlGLTg


Here is a short clip from the SUPERFIGHT Marciano vs Ali, for those who never got to see the computer-fight from 1969 between the two, it's only a minute long clip, so I apologise if it isn't enough for everybody. But enjoy :TU:
I have that fight on DVD. I heard Ali was upset with the desicion and was getting kind of mouthy with Marciano, so the rock replied something like "in my prime i would knock you out." That's some serious shit.


~A.W.F~
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Post by HomicideHenry »

That's a new story :o never heard that one, considering neither man knew the outcome of the fight until January 20th, 1969. Marciano had already been killed in a plane crash months before the computer fight ever was released, so...dunno how that would have came about.

I do know that Ali had knocked Marciano's wig off two times, after Marciano had told him to quit, and Ali did it again and Marciano hit Ali with a body shot so viscous that Ali doubled over and fell to the canvas. Marciano challenged Ali right then and there to a real fight if Ali was game, but Ali apologised and Marciano needed a while to calm down.

Now I know one of Marciano's brothers said on a SPORTS CENTURY episode about Marciano, that Rocky told them that he thought Ali was a good fighter, but in his prime he would have killed Ali. A few of Marciano's other friends were also quoted that Marciano wasn't really impressed by Ali's skills, that he did feel that Ali was fast, but didn't think that Ali was 'the greatest'.

I know also that Marciano was quoted before the computer fight years before that he never thought he'd see the day that the HW division would have a Sugar Ray Robinson (in reference to Ali), but I guess when Marciano actually got himself into decent shape and sparred those 70 rounds with Ali, his opinion changed.
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Post by HomicideHenry »

It's two days away from RAHMAN vs MASKAEV, I am hoping some people would give their own opinions as to who they think would win this upcoming fight---and when the fight happens we will compare your predictions, the computers predictions to the actual outcome. :TU:
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