MY TOP TEN OF MOST OVERRATED FIGHTERS....

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Aug 2006, 14:51

I'm not saying that these guys aint no good, but they arent the Gods some would have us believe....

1. Roy Jones
2. Fernandoe Vargas
3. Naz Hamed
4. Rocky Marcinao
5. Jack Dempsey
6. James Toney
7. Mike Tyson
8. Hector Comatcho
9. Oscar Delahoya
10. Miguel Cotto

Views anyone!...

8)

...lets keep it clean!...

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 05 Aug 2006, 14:52

I can't see how DLH is overrated, but to each their own.

~A.W.F~

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Aug 2006, 14:56

AndreWardFan2006 wrote:I can't see how DLH is overrated, but to each their own.

~A.W.F~

Well how many divisions has he actually dominated in?.... how many times has he unified the titles?.... his claims of being a multiple world champion are in reality a sham to be honest imo...

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 05 Aug 2006, 14:59

silkov wrote:
AndreWardFan2006 wrote:I can't see how DLH is overrated, but to each their own.

~A.W.F~
Well how many divisions has he actually dominated in?.... how many times has he unified the titles?.... his claims of being a multiple world champion are in reality a sham to be honest imo...

Understandable, but how many times did he fight guys that he wasn't supposed to beat and and he did? I'm not saying he is underrated by any means, but I just have never viewed him as overrated.

~A.W.F~

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Aug 2006, 15:14

AndreWardFan2006 wrote:
silkov wrote:
AndreWardFan2006 wrote:I can't see how DLH is overrated, but to each their own.

~A.W.F~
Well how many divisions has he actually dominated in?.... how many times has he unified the titles?.... his claims of being a multiple world champion are in reality a sham to be honest imo...
Understandable, but how many times did he fight guys that he wasn't supposed to beat and and he did? I'm not saying he is underrated by any means, but I just have never viewed him as overrated.

~A.W.F~

Not often really, he's been very well managed... he beat Whitaker but I though he'd lost that fight, everyone was impressed with his win over Mayaorga but Ricardo was made for him. To be fair I think Oscar was robbed against Mosely in their 2nd fight... Mosely is another one who is rated higher than he should be imo...

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 05 Aug 2006, 15:19

silkov wrote:
AndreWardFan2006 wrote:
silkov wrote: Well how many divisions has he actually dominated in?.... how many times has he unified the titles?.... his claims of being a multiple world champion are in reality a sham to be honest imo...
Understandable, but how many times did he fight guys that he wasn't supposed to beat and and he did? I'm not saying he is underrated by any means, but I just have never viewed him as overrated.

~A.W.F~
Not often really, he's been very well managed... he beat Whitaker but I though he'd lost that fight, everyone was impressed with his win over Mayaorga but Ricardo was made for him. To be fair I think Oscar was robbed against Mosely in their 2nd fight... Mosely is another one who is rated higher than he should be imo...

I think he edged Whitaker. Mayorga was most definately made for Oscar, and i'm happy he beat Mayorga because Mayorga disrespected him badly. I agree that Mosely is slightly overrated, and I don't think he actually wants to fight Mayweather. Seems like he's stalling right now.

~A.W.F~

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Aug 2006, 15:29

AndreWardFan2006 wrote:
silkov wrote:
AndreWardFan2006 wrote: Understandable, but how many times did he fight guys that he wasn't supposed to beat and and he did? I'm not saying he is underrated by any means, but I just have never viewed him as overrated.

~A.W.F~
Not often really, he's been very well managed... he beat Whitaker but I though he'd lost that fight, everyone was impressed with his win over Mayaorga but Ricardo was made for him. To be fair I think Oscar was robbed against Mosely in their 2nd fight... Mosely is another one who is rated higher than he should be imo...
I think he edged Whitaker. Mayorga was most definately made for Oscar, and i'm happy he beat Mayorga because Mayorga disrespected him badly. I agree that Mosely is slightly overrated, and I don't think he actually wants to fight Mayweather. Seems like he's stalling right now.

~A.W.F~

Persoanally I dont see Oscar gaining much if he beat Mayweather, he's naturally the bigger man and people will just say its a big man beating a smaller man... if I was Oscar I would go for Taylor at 160... if he wins it would be a great victory, if he lost he'd be losing to a bigger younger guy so wouldnt really lose much... Taylor dont really impress me either...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 05 Aug 2006, 16:17

4. Rocky Marcinao
5. Jack Dempsey

i think this is outrageous. they certainly arnt overated enough to be put in ur top 5 list. i mean how could u put marciano at # 4 and not have vitali klit in ur list?

marciano beat the 3 best fighters of his era(how many other HW champs can say that?) won all his fights clearly and uncontroversialy, beat 4 hall of famers who were all still top dangerous contenders, knocked out 3 great fighters(charles, walcott, moore), beat a top 20 heavyweight of all time at/near his prime(walcott), knocked out every top 10 contender he ever faced, firmly established himself the # 1 contender pre title, ducked no one, only undefeated HW champion in history, has all time great punching skills and one punch power, incredible strength and stamina, very effective style, great infighter, carried his power into later rounds, underated unpredictable defense, very durable, off the charts toughness and heart.........

wut more do u want? marciano did everything he had to do, and NO EXUSES!

is the only reason u think dempsey is overated cause of wills? well then why dont u critisize tunney too for never taking on black fighters and ducking george godfrey. at least dempsey fought 4 black fighters and showed willingness to meet wills. tunney showed no willingness to meet godfrey or any other top black fighter for that matter.

dempsey cleaned out his division pre title, dominated his top opposition easily(fulton, miske, willard, morris, brennan 1st), never lost in his prime(other than a controversial 4 round fight to meedhan), beat great range of depth and wide variety of styles, dominated master boxer top contender tommy gibbons winning 12 out of 15 rounds, when far past his prime knocked out top 25 heavyweight of all time jack sharkey and nearly knocked out gene tunney, had ATG all around punching skills and one punch power, very fast and mobile, great starter, excellent footwork, excellent defense, tiger like aggressivenes, great body attack, very durable and tough, loads of heart, very strong, great infighter......

tunney did not fight the 3 best heavyweights of his era........prime jack sharkey, george godfrey, larry gains. tunney did not beat any worthy heavyweights besides a far past his prime rusty jack dempsey. (risko was very green, gibbons was washed up, and heeney was no world beater).

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 05 Aug 2006, 16:19

I like 70% of the list. DLH, Dempsey and Toney don't belong there for my money. But the others seem very at home on that list.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 05 Aug 2006, 18:01

I always like to look at the factors that lead to an athlete being overated. I think in James Toney's case who I agree is overated is simply his longevity. In the case of Tyson one of the factors that stands out is a signiture win. That would be his knockout over Michael Spinks where he looked invincible, at that point everyone had him in the hall of fame. Another thing that leads to a fighter being overated is fans fall in love with the winning streak. Never mind what he does before or after that but if he strings alot of wins together as was the case with Jack Dempsey people tend to view mainly his winning streak while ignoring the rest of his career. That also was the case with Max Baer who does not apear on the list but falls into the same category. The flashy fighter is another example of a guy who receives undue recognition such as Naz Hamed.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 05 Aug 2006, 21:33

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
4. Rocky Marcinao
5. Jack Dempsey

i think this is outrageous.

this was VERY predicatable...

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 05 Aug 2006, 21:36

I'm glad to see Fernando Vargas is in there. I just dislike him....a lot.

~A.W.F~

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 05 Aug 2006, 21:42

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
4. Rocky Marcinao
5. Jack Dempsey
marciano beat the 3 best fighters of his era

..... but there are sever edoubts (I know, not in your mind) how good his era was compared to others. The best wins where all agasint old, small men.

is the only reason u think dempsey is overated cause of wills?

What about Harry Greb. Or Kid Norfolk. They were begging for shots at Dempsey, and were much better than any fighters against who Dempsey fought title defenses.

well then why dont u critisize tunney too for never taking on black fighters

Because none of them had the stature of Harry Wills. Not even remotely.

and ducking george godfrey.

He did not duck Godfrey.

at least dempsey fought 4 black fighters

All before he became champ.

and showed willingness to meet wills.

What is this worth if his manager and promoter didn't show wilingness? Nothing.

tunney showed no willingness to meet godfrey or any other top black fighter for that matter.

He would have fought Wills (and really, in contrast to Dempsey), and there was not the slightest reason to fight Godfrey.

dempsey cleaned out his division pre title, dominated his top opposition easily(fulton, miske, willard, morris, brennan 1st), never lost in his prime(other than a controversial 4 round fight to meedhan), beat great range of depth and wide variety of styles,

All second- or third-rate.

dominated master boxer top contender tommy gibbons winning 12 out of 15 rounds,

A blown-up l-h. Strangely though Gibbons was in his "prime" when losing a close decision to the much heavier Dempsey; while he was "washed up" when he was knocked out by same-weight gene Tunney less than 2 years later -- with 11 fights 11-0-0 (10 ko), two HOFers included (Norfolk, Carpentier), between the two bouts...

when far past his prime knocked out top 25 heavyweight of all time jack sharkey

... with a dirty trick in a fight where he was otherwise licked like a schloolboy.

and nearly knocked out gene tunney,

Hahaha.

Short summary of Brockton's Dempsey view:
Dempsey was FAR past his prime whenever he lost (at age 31/32!!), and the rather dreadful opposition when he was in his prime is excused by the fact that he was allegedly prepared to take on better on the very best, but tragically never got the chance.

((In contrast, Marciano's best opponents were all in their prime even though they were nearly 40.))

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Aug 2006, 00:40

Decagon wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marciano beat the 3 best fighters of his era
Oscar de la Hoya beat 7 of the 10 best fighters of his era.

yea and oscar IS NOT OVERATED

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Aug 2006, 00:43

pundit im srunk drunk out of my mind right now and i can still puint out tlall the flaws in ur argfuments, wait till topmm when im soiber and ill pick u apapert

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Aug 2006, 06:06

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:pundit im srunk drunk out of my mind right now and i can still puint out tlall the flaws in ur argfuments, wait till topmm when im soiber and ill pick u apapert

A word of advise, Kid you'll never get anywhere in life if youre pissed all the time... regarding my rating of Marciano and Dempsey I knew some of you would blow a gasket or two but my rating is because there are many who insist that Dempsey and Marcinao are the best ever and can never be criticised in any way... people can say what they like about Holmes, Johnson or even Ali but criticise the Rock or Dempsey and you risk being kidnapped and taken into the hills... as Brocktons little retort illustrates only too well... it seems that Dempsey and Marcinao occupy a 'do not touch' place in boxing history for some people and this is my main line of contention... so there!.
As for Oscar, yeh, he's fought some of the best of his era but he's also made some notable exceptions... for instance I dont see him ever banging down the door to fight Mr Wright... also many of the guys Oscar has fought have been well overrated themselves... Trinidad, Mosely, Vargas!!!.... pah!... in the 80s and 70s these guys would have been struggling to make it as contenders!....

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Aug 2006, 10:21

Roberto Duran ABOVE WELTERWEIGHT. I'd rate him pretty good at JMW-MW, and his achievements here in relation to his career beginning at 118 are quite impressive. However when judging him purely on his abilities at these higher weight classes, Duran's legend is often pushed to the heights of absurdity. He is nowhere near the top of either weight class alltime. I'm sure someone will disagree though.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Aug 2006, 10:39

Seamus wrote:Roberto Duran ABOVE WELTERWEIGHT. I'd rate him pretty good at JMW-MW, and his achievements here in relation to his career beginning at 118 are quite impressive. However when judging him purely on his abilities at these higher weight classes, Duran's legend is often pushed to the heights of absurdity. He is nowhere near the top of either weight class alltime. I'm sure someone will disagree though.

Well you can't knock his wins over Moore and Barkley and he took a peak Hagler 15 rounds which is more than all the other top 160 contenders of the time managed... not bad for a fighter who is considered by some as just 'average' at 160... if anything I think Duran is underrated at 160...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Aug 2006, 17:12

Decagon wrote:Exactly. Duran is EASILY one of the 70 or 80 greatest middleweights of all time.

Very droll.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 06 Aug 2006, 18:53

Marvin Hagler.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Aug 2006, 19:27

Decagon wrote:Oh, please. Give me THREE good reasons why Roberto Duran was better than Joe Carter:

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=10001

How about you give me two reasons why Carter is better than Duran...

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 06 Aug 2006, 20:04

Add Vitali Klitschko to that list and I would agree except for the prince.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 06 Aug 2006, 20:21

silkov wrote:...it seems that Dempsey and Marcinao occupy a 'do not touch' place in boxing history for some people and this is my main line of contention...

Yeah kinda the way I feel about Liston. All I have to do is say he shouldn't be top 10 ATG HW and everyone jumps all over me.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 06 Aug 2006, 22:00

There must be a place there for Lennox Lewis...

After all, several on here claim he is a top 5 heavy of all time when he didn't beat any great fighter who were near their prime AND got KO'd by 2 very moderate contenders.

JAHamilton77 · Post by **JAHamilton77** » 06 Aug 2006, 22:12

AndreWardFan2006 wrote:I can't see how DLH is overrated, but to each their own.

~A.W.F~

Oscar De La Hoya is one of those fighters that is overated and underated at the same time.