Styles Make Fights

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 02 Aug 2006, 09:07

Styles make fights; it isn't over until it is over; and if two competent fighters meet in the ring anything can happen.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 03 Aug 2006, 08:16

I'm going to respond to some of Brockton most outrageous comments.
Saying that Frazier would have quit against if he was in Marciano's position against Charles is absurd. It's hard to imagine many fighters quitting like that, and Joe Frazier certain wasn't one of them.

This whole business about the 3rd Ali-Frazier fighter is ridiculaus as well. This fight was much, much more brutal than the Marciano-Walcott fight. The tempature was well over 100 degrees. Frazier had taken a lot of punishment. In the last two rounds, he couldn't see Ali's punches at all. He was a punching bag. He had no chance of winning that fight. His trainer did the right thing in stopping the fight. Frazier didn't quit himself. This whole business that Marciano would have knocked out his trainer in that sitiuation is just nonsense.

Btw, Marciano wasn't "blind" for 3 rounds against Walcott. He was cut. He could still see his opponent where his opponent was and could see the punches coming much better than if he was blind. Most fighters would have continue when cut. Frazier was almost blind for the last 2 rounds and was being hit with punches before he could react. This is a huge difference.

Also, this whole business about who knocked Frazier down is very interesting. Brockton points out that Frazier was knocked down by Mike Bruce and Oscar Bonavena which is true. He then says that is worse than than being decked by Walcott and Moore.
He didn't mention that the Bruce fight was only 2nd professional fight! Nor did he mention that the Bonavena fight was only Frazier's 12th fight and that Frazier had barely been a pro for year when that happened. Frazier was fighting a ranked contender in his 12th fight, got knocked down and came back to win, and that is used as evidence against him?
Frazier wasn't knocked down by anyone but Foreman for the rest of his career.

He also criticizes Frazier for taking so long to stop "old Eddie Machen". What he doesn't mention is that is that this was only Frazier's 13th pro fight, and that Machen wasn't completely washed up. (He had beaten Quarry just 4 months previously). That is a pretty decent win for a fighter on his way up like Frazier.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 03 Aug 2006, 11:05

Ambling Alp wrote:I'm going to respond to some of Brockton most outrageous comments.
Saying that Frazier would have quit against if he was in Marciano's position against Charles is absurd. It's hard to imagine many fighters quitting like that, and Joe Frazier certain wasn't one of them.

This whole business about the 3rd Ali-Frazier fighter is ridiculaus as well. This fight was much, much more brutal than the Marciano-Walcott fight. The tempature was well over 100 degrees. Frazier had taken a lot of punishment. In the last two rounds, he couldn't see Ali's punches at all. He was a punching bag. He had no chance of winning that fight. His trainer did the right thing in stopping the fight. Frazier didn't quit himself. This whole business that Marciano would have knocked out his trainer in that sitiuation is just nonsense.

Btw, Marciano wasn't "blind" for 3 rounds against Walcott. He was cut. He could still see his opponent where his opponent was and could see the punches coming much better than if he was blind. Most fighters would have continue when cut. Frazier was almost blind for the last 2 rounds and was being hit with punches before he could react. This is a huge difference.

Also, this whole business about who knocked Frazier down is very interesting. Brockton points out that Frazier was knocked down by Mike Bruce and Oscar Bonavena which is true. He then says that is worse than than being decked by Walcott and Moore.
He didn't mention that the Bruce fight was only 2nd professional fight! Nor did he mention that the Bonavena fight was only Frazier's 12th fight and that Frazier had barely been a pro for year when that happened. Frazier was fighting a ranked contender in his 12th fight, got knocked down and came back to win, and that is used as evidence against him?
Frazier wasn't knocked down by anyone but Foreman for the rest of his career.

He also criticizes Frazier for taking so long to stop "old Eddie Machen". What he doesn't mention is that is that this was only Frazier's 13th pro fight, and that Machen wasn't completely washed up. (He had beaten Quarry just 4 months previously). That is a pretty decent win for a fighter on his way up like Frazier.

Nice post Alp.

I'd just like to add that Quarry was only 22 when he fought Machen.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 03 Aug 2006, 11:30

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
theone wrote: Fraizer went 14 hellacious rounds with Ali in excruciating heat throwing nothing but power shots.

Give me an example of Marciano's stamina for comparision.

marciano went 14 gruelling rounds with ezzard charles and in the 15th round marciano threw over 100 punches most of them power shots. did frazier do this in the 15th round? did frazier even come out for the 15th round?

Alright, this is not true. I counted the punches a few months ago and it was about 85-88. While a lot of punches, not quite "over 100 punches." Also it should be noted that Charles did not really throw a lot of shots in the 15th round, which made it easier for Marciano to keep his punch rate up.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 03 Aug 2006, 12:30

It's times like this that I wish CompuBox could be used on the old fights and see how many punches were thrown and landed---I bet it would genuinely surprise alot of people as to how many punches Marciano threw in a fight, because the man never stopped throwing punches.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Aug 2006, 12:36

Btw, Marciano wasn't "blind" for 3 rounds against Walcott. He was cut. He could still see his opponent where his opponent was and could see the punches coming much better than if he was blind. Most fighters would have continue when cut. Frazier was almost blind for the last 2 rounds and was being hit with punches before he could react. This is a huge difference.

marciano was blind for 3 rounds against walcott he couldnt see. like ali was blinded vs liston, this is a fact. why are u denying this? there was stuff in marcianos eyes that made him unable to see for 3 rounds.

marciano said for 3 rounds he only saw a "shadow" of walcott

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 03 Aug 2006, 13:55

I'm denying that he wasn't blind because he wasn't. He could see the target in front of him (Walcott). He still was able to throw and land punches. He wasn't completely defenseless from Walcott's punches. Marciano wasn't a punching bag for 3 rounds. Marciano's situation was hardly unique. This is completely different than the situation that Frazier (or Ali for a few minutes in the Liston fight.) was in.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Aug 2006, 14:54

(or Ali for a few minutes in the Liston fight.) was in.

disagree,

marciano was in the exact same situation ali was in against liston.

marciano even said at the end of the 6th round "I CANT SEE!". why would rocky make this up?

you could see rocky on fdilm squinting his eyes, the poor guy could barely see cause he had shit in his eyes.

marciano couldnt see because like ali, shit got into his eyes

rocky said in rounds 7-9 he only saw a "shadow" of jersey joe walcott.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 03 Aug 2006, 18:49

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marciano couldnt see because like ali, shit got into his eyes

How did he get shit in his eyes?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 04 Aug 2006, 13:49

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
(or Ali for a few minutes in the Liston fight.) was in.

disagree,

marciano was in the exact same situation ali was in against liston.

marciano even said at the end of the 6th round "I CANT SEE!". why would rocky make this up?

you could see rocky on fdilm squinting his eyes, the poor guy could barely see cause he had shit in his eyes.

marciano couldnt see because like ali, shit got into his eyes

rocky said in rounds 7-9 he only saw a "shadow" of jersey joe walcott.

Marciano's situation was nothing like ali against Liston (or Frazier which is what we were orginally talking about).

Ali had to bounce around for a couple of minutes until his eyes cleared up. He didn't know how close Liston was to him.
Frazier was in an even worse predicament. His eyes were both badly swollen and weren't gettting better. He was a sitting duck, and Ali teed off on him in the 13th and 14th round. He had no idea when Ali was going to hit him. Neither Ali against Liston or Frazier against Ali could mount an offense.

Watch the Marciano fight. He is going right after Walcott. He was able to hit Walcott with some shots. The 7th, 8th and 9th rounds were all competitive. If Marciano was "blind" he wouldn't have been able to do this.
He wasn't taking potshots like Frazier was. It's obvious that he can tell where Walcott is and can tell what Walcott is doing.

Was Marciano lying? Well I don't know exactly he said. Perhaps he was misquoted. Or he could have been exagerrating what happened. That's not the issue anyway.
Marciano clearly wasn't "blind" and wasn't in nearly the dangerous situation that Frazier was in.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 05 Aug 2006, 16:31

"theres something in my eyes, there burning"- rocky marciano at end of 6th round.

"my eyes are getting worse, do something. I CAN'T SEE" - rocky marciano at end of the 7th round

MARCIANO DID GET SOME KIND OF OINTMENT IN HIS EYES AND HE WAS BASICALLY BLIND FOR 2-3 ROUNDS.

like ali vs liston. ali got something in his eyes he couldnt see. marciano got something in his eyes he couldnt see. watch the films u can see rocky blinking trying to clear his eyes in round 7-8

marciano says felix bocchicho blinded him intentionally. promoter sam silverman says marcianos handlers blinded rocky with the oitment they used on the cut on his forehead. we will never know.

Watch the Marciano fight. He is going right after Walcott.

wut do u want marciano to do, dance around like ali? marciano wasnt that type of fighter. he simply couldnt do that. he had to stand there and fight. marciano going in on walcott when he couldnt see speaks of marcianos true warrior mentallity. they dont come tougher than rocky marciano.

notice how many punches marciano misses round 7-8, cause he cant see where hes punching. its all one big shadow. the only punches marciano lands is where walcott is on the inside very close to marciano.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 05 Aug 2006, 16:33

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marciano couldnt see because like ali, shit got into his eyes
How did he get shit in his eyes?

either felix bocchicio intellionally blinded rocky rubbing shit on walcotts gloves or shoulders, or marcianos handlers accidentley blinded marciano with the medication they used on his cut on his forehead.

TAKE YOUR PICK

* just remember, boccichio is a very shady character.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 05 Aug 2006, 19:31

The danger to Frazier was the treacherous Eddie Futch in his corner.

Thunder and Lightning · Post by **Thunder and Lightning** » 07 Aug 2006, 05:37

granberry wrote:The danger to Frazier was the treacherous Eddie Futch in his corner.

Eh okay what is that suposed to mean?
Frazier was almost dead in that fight Eddie did the right thing protecting him from more harm, there is no way in hell Frazier could have won that fight.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 07 Aug 2006, 08:15

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:"theres something in my eyes, there burning"- rocky marciano at end of 6th round.

"my eyes are getting worse, do something. I CAN'T SEE" - rocky marciano at end of the 7th round

MARCIANO DID GET SOME KIND OF OINTMENT IN HIS EYES AND HE WAS BASICALLY BLIND FOR 2-3 ROUNDS.

like ali vs liston. ali got something in his eyes he couldnt see. marciano got something in his eyes he couldnt see. watch the films u can see rocky blinking trying to clear his eyes in round 7-8

marciano says felix bocchicho blinded him intentionally. promoter sam silverman says marcianos handlers blinded rocky with the oitment they used on the cut on his forehead. we will never know.

Watch the Marciano fight. He is going right after Walcott.

wut do u want marciano to do, dance around like ali? marciano wasnt that type of fighter. he simply couldnt do that. he had to stand there and fight. marciano going in on walcott when he couldnt see speaks of marcianos true warrior mentallity. they dont come tougher than rocky marciano.

notice how many punches marciano misses round 7-8, cause he cant see where hes punching. its all one big shadow. the only punches marciano lands is where walcott is on the inside very close to marciano.

"Going in" against Walcott simply wasn't a big deal. Very few fighters wouldn't have in that situation.
If he was truly blind, he wouldn't have ran right after Walcott as soon as the bell rang for round 7. For one thing, he would have had trouble finding him since he was more than 20 feet away.
Of course he missed some punches, but he hit Walcott plenty of times. Of course he He had no trouble finding him at all.
If he was "blind" he wouldn't have been able to do this.
He also wasn't a sitting duck taking punches from Walcott.
If he was "blind" Walcott would have been able to tee off on him at will because he would have had no idea the punches were coming.
It was obvious that he could see Walcott.
This isn't rocket science. It's all on film, plain as day.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 07 Aug 2006, 09:01

Ambling Alp wrote:He also wasn't a sitting duck taking punches from Walcott. If he was "blind" Walcott would have been able to tee off on him at will because he would have had no idea the punches were coming.
It was obvious that he could see Walcott.
This isn't rocket science. It's all on film, plain as day.

Good point. If Marciano had really been blinded for 3 rounds, then you have to wonder if Walcott even knew how to fight! Was Walcott THAT far over the hill when he fought Rocky?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Aug 2006, 10:59

marciano himself said he couldnt see. his eyes were burning. his corner said marciano couldnt see. why would they make this up? face it, marciano was just as blind vs walcott as ali was vs liston. difference is marciano wanted to go out and fight and ali wanted to quit.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Aug 2006, 13:30

Decagon wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marciano himself said he couldnt see. his eyes were burning. his corner said marciano couldnt see. why would they make this up? face it, marciano was just as blind vs walcott as ali was vs liston. difference is marciano wanted to go out and fight and ali wanted to quit.
Well, Marciano wasn't in against Sonny Liston. He was fighting an old man.

sonny liston was an old man too. probably 36-37 at the time of the ali fight.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 07 Aug 2006, 18:07

The Great John L wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:He also wasn't a sitting duck taking punches from Walcott. If he was "blind" Walcott would have been able to tee off on him at will because he would have had no idea the punches were coming.
It was obvious that he could see Walcott.
This isn't rocket science. It's all on film, plain as day.
Good point. If Marciano had really been blinded for 3 rounds, then you have to wonder if Walcott even knew how to fight! Was Walcott THAT far over the hill when he fought Rocky?

That's a very good point. Brocky demands that we accept 100% that Walcott was a ATG in his absolute prime in that fight................. yet he couldn't see off a blind man.

Sounds a bit fishy to me...

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 07 Aug 2006, 19:07

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:sonny liston was an old man too. probably 36-37 at the time of the ali fight.

Drinking rather early today?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Aug 2006, 19:13

all i say is marciano was just as blinded vs walcott as ali was vs liston. both got some kind of ointment in there eyes. are marcianos eyes more durable than ali? can he take the burning and stinging feeling in his eyes better than ali can? i think not. both got shit in ther eyes, both couldnt see.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Aug 2006, 19:14

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:sonny liston was an old man too. probably 36-37 at the time of the ali fight.
Drinking rather early today?

tell me wuts wrong with my statement. dec called walcott an old man, but its very well likely liston was about 36-37 by the time he fought ali so that makes liston an old man too!

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 07 Aug 2006, 19:18

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:all i say is marciano was just as blinded vs walcott as ali was vs liston. both got some kind of ointment in there eyes. are marcianos eyes more durable than ali? can he take the burning and stinging feeling in his eyes better than ali can? i think not. both got shit in ther eyes, both couldnt see.

I was just commenting on the Liston was "probably 36-37 at the time of the ali fight" comment. Not only it is a stretch, but it's pretty sad to see just how far people go in trying to make excuses for their favorites loses.

Marciano was a great fighter, but all the posts you've made just don't add up. Just think about it. Rocky was blinded for 3 rounds against Walcott, who you rate as an all time great and in his prime during the Marciano fight. Yet, he couldn't finish off a guy who was blind and charging towards him. Logically, either Marciano wasn't blinded, or Walcott wasn't really very good in that fight. You can't have it both ways.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 07 Aug 2006, 19:21

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tell me wuts wrong with my statement. dec called walcott an old man, but its very well likely liston was about 36-37 by the time he fought ali so that makes liston an old man too!

What evidence do you have that Liston was 36-37? That's way off the usual 2 year diffference that Liston defenders claim, and just seems to be way off base. Do you have any proof? Perhaps a quote from another boxing "historian"?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Aug 2006, 19:33

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:all i say is marciano was just as blinded vs walcott as ali was vs liston. both got some kind of ointment in there eyes. are marcianos eyes more durable than ali? can he take the burning and stinging feeling in his eyes better than ali can? i think not. both got shit in ther eyes, both couldnt see.
I was just commenting on the Liston was "probably 36-37 at the time of the ali fight" comment. Not only it is a stretch, but it's pretty sad to see just how far people go in trying to make excuses for their favorites loses.

Marciano was a great fighter, but all the posts you've made just don't add up. Just think about it. Rocky was blinded for 3 rounds against Walcott, who you rate as an all time great and in his prime during the Marciano fight. Yet, he couldn't finish off a guy who was blind and charging towards him. Logically, either Marciano wasn't blinded, or Walcott wasn't really very good in that fight. You can't have it both ways.

or perhaps marciano had a better chin than u think. also walcott didnt know marciano was blind, had he knew he would have gone in for the kill.i dont mean marciano was completley blind, but his eyes were burning and his vision was clearly affected.

marciano said he couldnt see, he said his eyes were burning. why would marciano lie? are u denying marciano having vision problems rounds 7-9?