margaret thatcher wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 16:23
these guys who make light heavy today at 190 on fight night are absolutely shredded and in good shape too
by current standards, rocky was the size of a very stubby light heavy. that's a factor facing legit sized world class heavies
X2
Canelo is coming in the ring at 180-183 and is shredded like crazy. Far better definition than Marciano
Not a stretch of the imagination that Rock could do the same
Marciano starved himself to get 185. No way he was going to get down to super middleweight or light heavyweight. There was no fat on him.
What cruiserweight or heavyweight fought fights at the pace that Marciano did round after round, fight after fight ?
Again, we have to get past looking at the tale of the tape. Actually watch his fights.
a dude starving himself is par for the course in making weight my man, although as someone who doesnt really follow boxing these days maybe that's been lost on you
it's pretty simple, marciano wasnt any bigger than modern light heavys. its not the only factor, but its one of them, one that triggers you a lot
tyson fury vs roman gonzalez -- look past the tale of the tape everybody!! roman's a better combo puncher, has endless stamina, an awesome inside game, and more!
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑26 Apr 2022, 15:44
a dude starving himself is par for the course in making weight my man, although as someone who doesnt really follow boxing these days maybe that's been lost on you
it's pretty simple, marciano wasnt any bigger than modern light heavys. its not the only factor, but its one of them, one that triggers you a lot
tyson fury vs roman gonzalez -- look past the tale of the tape everybody!! roman's a better combo puncher, has endless stamina, an awesome inside game, and more!
Marciano starved himself to get down to 185.
Maybe some day you will actually watch an old Marciano fight and get the idea.
Why don't you start a list of all the times that a great fighter who weighed less than 200 lost to someone that weighed more than 220. Should be a really long list, you would think. Go for it.
and how many heavyweight champs in the last 50 years have weighed under 200? or 185 on fight night like rock? if only they knew that weighing in the 180s would give them the real size advantage lol
where are all these little 6 foot sub 200 guys who should be cleaning out the division ?? bizarre that they just aren't coming around when they have so much to gain ---money, fame, legacy
artur beterbiev's actually the ideal heavyweight size isnt he, 5'11, rock hard 190 on fight night,,, make the move man!
What happened the last guy who weighed under 200 and fought for the title? He won.
I don't think 250 plus is ideal either. Ever wonder why the biggest heavyweight is never the best heavyweight? Ever?
I don't think under 200 is ideal either.
But if a particular guy can do it, he can do it. 6'1 isn't the ideal height for the NBA. But if a guy is good enough, he can do it.
Again I challenge. Go through history. Look at what actually happens in real life (not make believe mytical fights) when a great fighter 200 or below takes on a guy over 220. Make a list how many times the bigger guy won. Come on. It's not like you have nothing better to do.
lol 1 guy in decades, beating a cherry picked alphabet souper who wasnt nearly the best hw in the world
the fact that it was only 1 says it all - why aren't all these other guys that size doing big things at heavyweight, when they have so much to gain by doing so? its been years and years and years since the recognized top heavyweight was some little sub 200 pounder, let alone a 5'10/68 inch reach/ 185 on fight night bloke. kind of seems like being that small makes a difference at heavyweight doesnt it
And that's one of my points. There are guys over 220 that should be under 220. Guys that are over 250 that should be the 220s-230s.
Why should we assume since that most of the heavyweights currently weigh a lot, that they should weight a lot?
The only real way to know is to go by real life examples of what happens when a heavyweight who weighs a lot fights one who is smaller. Why? Because it actually happened.
The Fighter A would have had a 50 pound weight "advantage" and therefore would automatically win easily narrative, is just make believe.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022, 11:12
And that's one of my points. There are guys over 220 that should be under 220. Guys that are over 250 that should be the 220s-230s.
Why should we assume since that most of the heavyweights currently weigh a lot, that they should weight a lot?
The only real way to know is to go by real life examples of what happens when a heavyweight who weighs a lot fights one who is smaller. Why? Because it actually happened.
The Fighter A would have had a 50 pound weight "advantage" and therefore would automatically win easily narrative, is just make believe.
Ok please show me one example in this century where a 185 pound 5'10" fighter beat a top rated 6'6 250 pound man.
ONE FUGGING EXAMPLE
There has not been one. Case closed
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022, 10:45
It's not cherry picking when you pick the last time the situation occurred.
How is the list coming a long? How many fights have you found where a great fighter 200 or under lost to someone over 220?
how many fights where someone over 220 beat someone who weighed 120? omg none !!! those big silly bois!
hows that list of all these little guys who are storming though the division? how about even one 185 pounder who was a top 10 heavy over the last few decades? how about 1 fighter under 200 who was the top man? they'd have every incentive to move to heavy and have that success there if they could, so why are none of them doing it? surely at the gym at some point they've realized they've actually got the advantage over the bigger guys
for all the advantages they'd have, utterly bizarre it's not happening at all innit
How did the last cruiserweight who moved up and got a title shot do? Did he win?
How did the last light heavyweight who fought for the heavyweight title do? Did he win?
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022, 11:12
And that's one of my points. There are guys over 220 that should be under 220. Guys that are over 250 that should be the 220s-230s.
Why should we assume since that most of the heavyweights currently weigh a lot, that they should weight a lot?
The only real way to know is to go by real life examples of what happens when a heavyweight who weighs a lot fights one who is smaller. Why? Because it actually happened.
The Fighter A would have had a 50 pound weight "advantage" and therefore would automatically win easily narrative, is just make believe.
Ok please show me one example in this century where a 185 pound 5'10" fighter beat a top rated 6'6 250 pound man.
ONE FUGGING EXAMPLE
There has not been one. Case closed
pound
OK please show one example in this century (when boxing apparently began) where a 6'6 250 pound man beat a top 185 pound man. ONE FUGGING EXAMPLE.
Give one example when the biggest heavyweight in the world was the best heavyweight in the world. ONE FUGGING EXAMPLE.
Case closed.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022, 11:12
And that's one of my points. There are guys over 220 that should be under 220. Guys that are over 250 that should be the 220s-230s.
Why should we assume since that most of the heavyweights currently weigh a lot, that they should weight a lot?
The only real way to know is to go by real life examples of what happens when a heavyweight who weighs a lot fights one who is smaller. Why? Because it actually happened.
The Fighter A would have had a 50 pound weight "advantage" and therefore would automatically win easily narrative, is just make believe.
Ok please show me one example in this century where a 185 pound 5'10" fighter beat a top rated 6'6 250 pound man.
ONE FUGGING EXAMPLE
There has not been one. Case closed
pound
OK please show one example in this century (when boxing apparently began) where a 6'6 250 pound man beat a top 185 pound man. ONE FUGGING EXAMPLE.
Give one example when the biggest heavyweight in the world was the best heavyweight in the world. ONE FUGGING EXAMPLE.
Case closed.
One example where the biggest heavyweight was the best?
Tyson Fury
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022, 13:50
How did the last cruiserweight who moved up and got a title shot do? Did he win?
How did the last light heavyweight who fought for the heavyweight title do? Did he win?
by the way there have been lots of light heavies to fight at hw since jones, adamek challenged vit for a title and didnt win a round. the success tends to drop off as they move up in weight, most dont even get to a title shot. cruisers too .....the list of cruiser champs who failed to win a title at hw is far greater than the list of those who did. if you just list the guys who won you ignore all those who didnt.
using alp logic, we should be seeing light heavys and cruisers be at least as succesful at hw, if not more, but the overwhelming majority do less at the weight
by the way there have been lots of light heavies to fight at hw since jones, adamek challenged vit for a title and didnt win a round. the success tends to drop off as they move up in weight, most dont even get to a title shot. cruisers too .....the list of cruiser champs who failed to win a title at hw is far greater than the list of those who did. if you just list the guys who won you ignore all those who didnt.
using alp logic, we should be seeing light heavys and cruisers be at least as succesful at hw, if not more, but the overwhelming majority do less at the weight
The only logic that can be in debate is when a smaller very skilled fighter would face a very non skilled fighter. A good big man beats a good little man. It is simple.
Rocky would not be a heavyweight and if he was he would not compete at the higher level successfully
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022, 13:50
How did the last cruiserweight who moved up and got a title shot do? Did he win?
How did the last light heavyweight who fought for the heavyweight title do? Did he win?
Was he 5'10" and 185?
Not even close 6'3" 224
Usyk beat a guy that was 6'6 and 240.
Jones was 5'11 and 193; not much bigger than Marciano.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022, 13:50
How did the last cruiserweight who moved up and got a title shot do? Did he win?
How did the last light heavyweight who fought for the heavyweight title do? Did he win?
Was he 5'10" and 185?
Not even close 6'3" 224
Usyk beat a guy that was 6'6 and 240.
Jones was 5'11 and 193; not much bigger than Marciano.
And John Ruiz was far from the best heavyweight in the world
Do you think he would of beat Lennox Lewis on that night?
There still has not been a great heavyweight over 250. Lewis is the closest. even he looked bad when he weighed over 250.
Some real life examples of a far smaller guy winning:
Tommy Loughran (188) def Ray Impellitere (254)
Bob Fitzsimmons (170) def Ed Dunkhorst (260)
Johnny Risko (190) def George Godfrey (255)
Jim Maloney (195) def Primo Carnera (260)
I can give many more examples where the smaller fighter one.
Come on. Lets see some real life examples where a guy over 220 beat a great fighter 200 or below.
I can give many more examples where the smaller fighter one.
Lets stop with the Mythical fights crap.
How about in the real world?
Amazing how light heavys and cruisers overwhelmingly accomplish less upon moving to heavyweight isn't it, the list of former cruiser and light heavy champs to not win a hw title is far far bigger than the list of those who became hw champs, and most of those who did have success never became the top guy in the division.
Guys between 170-190 havent seriously campaigned at heavyweight in decades and decades, since larger guys took over. we dont even get these fights anymore. it makes 0 sense why the guys in this weight range wouldnt compete as heavies if it really wasnt a big deal for them to make the jump vs vastly bigger opposition. there is far bigger money and fame at heavyweight
we should be seeing these little guys pop up and doing great things at hw all the time, but they are nowhere. and 'small' usyk is a giant compared to marciano.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022, 16:51
Amazing how light heavys and cruisers overwhelmingly accomplish less upon moving to heavyweight isn't it, the list of former cruiser and light heavy champs to not win a hw title is far far bigger than the list of those who became hw champs, and most of those who did have success never became the top guy in the division.
Guys between 170-190 havent seriously campaigned at heavyweight in decades and decades. it makes 0 sense why they wouldnt if it really wasnt a big deal for them to make the jump vs vastly bigger opposition. there is far bigger money and fame at heavyweight
we should be seeing these little guys pop up and doing great things at hw, but they are nowhere
Of course most of them don't. Under 200 is not ideal. (Neither is 250)
But if a individual fighter than was 200 or below could do, lets stop pretending that he couldn't.
Dempsey weighed under 200 also. Could he have defeated someone that weighed a lot more than him?
