Thoughts now on size of HWs compared to other eras?

[pound per pound]

A sharp fast quick-footed skillful boxer will almost always out box a giant one-dimensional heavyweight who is too slow (ie, Usyk vs Joshua) but that is not always the case historically (ie, Loughran vs Carnera).

The thing is Usyk isn't small, he's 6'3" with a 78" reach and around the 220lb mark, the same size as Ali and Foreman in the 1970s, he just seems small compared to guys like AJ and Fury. Foreman looked like a beast in those days. Have you changed your mind on guys like Marciano then? Didn't you always argue in previous years he would beat the modern day HWs?

Right. Usyk isn't small. He's a fit 6-3" 220lbs and a very good boxer. Infact he's be considered a huge fight 50 years ago. Now he's just big enough. Likely unbeatable prior to Liston.

[margaret thatcher]

usyk fought as a super heavyweight in the world series of boxing in his mid 20s, where he weighed over 210. geroge was still 220 in his mid 20s. there wasnt really much difference between them in size, you're talking single digits, along with equal height and reach. usyk is right up there in the general grouping with foreman, ali, holmes, norton , etc...give or take a couple pounds, with foreman at the bigger end

[Ambling Alp II]

I will issue the challenge again. Name a great 200 or under who lost to someone over 220? So far there seems to be one case. Dozens of cases where the smaller guy won.

But similarly name anyone 200 or under that beat a great over 220 in the last 30 odd years. The old time HW division was mainly smaller guys, guys who would be LHWs today or CWs. There just weren’t many big decent HWs around so the fights tend to be skewed in favour of the smaller guys. Being big alone doesn’t mean much if you can’t fight but if weight wasn’t such an issue why aren’t these smaller guys successful today? You only have to listen to fighters and trainers mentioning weight and size when talking about Fury for example to see it obviously makes a huge difference.

How many great fighters have their been in the last 30 years that weighed over 220? Not many. There simply have not been many of these fights lately. Why have smaller heavyweights not been successful? There have not been hardly any. Again one of our points. Many guys should be smaller.
In the "old time hw division" ? Not sure when that was. Guess it was before a person became a fan. Everything before that apparently is "old time" to many people. There used heavyweight of great of varying sizes. There guys under 200. Many 200-225 or so. Some much heavier than that.
Ultimately this is not so much about weight for many people. It's about fighters in their era being labeled the best. Some people have no real interest in boxing before their time. Weight is a convenient excuse to dismiss many fighters before their time.

[Controversial]

I will issue the challenge again. Name a great 200 or under who lost to someone over 220? So far there seems to be one case. Dozens of cases where the smaller guy won.

But similarly name anyone 200 or under that beat a great over 220 in the last 30 odd years. The old time HW division was mainly smaller guys, guys who would be LHWs today or CWs. There just weren’t many big decent HWs around so the fights tend to be skewed in favour of the smaller guys. Being big alone doesn’t mean much if you can’t fight but if weight wasn’t such an issue why aren’t these smaller guys successful today? You only have to listen to fighters and trainers mentioning weight and size when talking about Fury for example to see it obviously makes a huge difference.

How many great fighters have their been in the last 30 years that weighed over 220? Not many. There simply have not been many of these fights lately. Why have smaller heavyweights not been successful? There have not been hardly any. Again one of our points. Many guys should be smaller.
In the "old time hw division" ? Not sure when that was. Guess it was before a person became a fan. Everything before that apparently is "old time" to many people. There used heavyweight of great of varying sizes. There guys under 200. Many 200-225 or so. Some much heavier than that.
Ultimately this is not so much about weight for many people. It's about fighters in their era being labeled the best. Some people have no real interest in boxing before their time. Weight is a convenient excuse to dismiss many fighters before their time.

I was assuming the count you made was for HWs going back 80-100+ years, thats what I meant by the older time HWs. Generally the BIG guys then weren't that good and the good HWs would likely be LHW or CW today. The 60/70s was the real turning point in HWs generally getting bigger than previous generations. Even then Foreman fought lots of guys under 200, as did Liston. But the fact remains how many guys have been successful from moving up from lighter weights as a major force in the HW division in the last 30+ years? Really only Holyfield, Usyk remains to be seen and Holyfield was pretty much the same size as Ali so not really small. Both would’ve been classed as fairly big HWs had they fought in Marcianos era even when they were fighting at CW.

Why did they introduce the CW division in 1979 or do you think they should go back to the 175 limit? Why do you think fighters and trainers mention size and weight so much if it's not relevant?

[funso banjo baby]

Check YouTube
Look at Brian minto v Chris arreola
Then look at Chris arreola v klit

It's an eye opener, and minto is the size of average heavies in the 20th century maybe a few pounds heavier?

[Riddick Bowie]

Check YouTube
Look at Brian minto v Chris arreola
Then look at Chris arreola v klit

It's an eye opener, and minto is the size of average heavies in the 20th century maybe a few pounds heavier?

What will looking at a no skills journeyman and a tough low talent blob teach us?

Minto would have lost to every champ and serious contender in history, and Arreola got flattened by Stiverne, one of the worst champs in history.

Think I'll pass.

[Ambling Alp II]

But similarly name anyone 200 or under that beat a great over 220 in the last 30 odd years. The old time HW division was mainly smaller guys, guys who would be LHWs today or CWs. There just weren’t many big decent HWs around so the fights tend to be skewed in favour of the smaller guys. Being big alone doesn’t mean much if you can’t fight but if weight wasn’t such an issue why aren’t these smaller guys successful today? You only have to listen to fighters and trainers mentioning weight and size when talking about Fury for example to see it obviously makes a huge difference.

How many great fighters have their been in the last 30 years that weighed over 220? Not many. There simply have not been many of these fights lately. Why have smaller heavyweights not been successful? There have not been hardly any. Again one of our points. Many guys should be smaller.
In the "old time hw division" ? Not sure when that was. Guess it was before a person became a fan. Everything before that apparently is "old time" to many people. There used heavyweight of great of varying sizes. There guys under 200. Many 200-225 or so. Some much heavier than that.
Ultimately this is not so much about weight for many people. It's about fighters in their era being labeled the best. Some people have no real interest in boxing before their time. Weight is a convenient excuse to dismiss many fighters before their time.

I was assuming the count you made was for HWs going back 80-100+ years, thats what I meant by the older time HWs. Generally the BIG guys then weren't that good and the good HWs would likely be LHW or CW today. The 60/70s was the real turning point in HWs generally getting bigger than previous generations. Even then Foreman fought lots of guys under 200, as did Liston. But the fact remains how many guys have been successfuls from moving up from lighter weights as a major force in the HW division in the last 30+ years? Really only Holyfield, Usyk remains to be seen and Holyfield was pretty much the same size as Ali so not really small. Both would’ve been classed as fairly big HWs had they fought in Marcianos era even when they were fighting at CW.

Why did they introduce the CW division in 1979 or do you think they should go back to the 175 limit? Why do you think fighters and trainers mention size and weight so much if it's not relevant?

How many were successful that moved up? That is a little different question but OK.

Obviously Holyfield. (He wasn't naturally as big as Ali) Usyk has been. Moorer was successful. Chris Byrd was successful. Jones only had the one fight but he won.

Michael Spinks was the first light heavyweight champion to win the heavyweight title. (Fitzsimmons actually won the heavyweight title first. Tunney and Charles never got a shot at the light heavyweight title. ) Obviously some tried and failed. Well under 200 is not ideal. They were at a disadvantage when fighting an opponent who was at a ideal size.

There really weren't a ton of guys well under 200 from the 1940s-1980s who won the title; if that is the criteria for being successful is the title.
Under 200 not ideal. (Again over 250 is not either) However if a guy well under 200 could do, why do we have to pretend that they couldn't? We know Dempsey could beat medium-big heavyweights. Louis was under 200 or just over it during his prime. We know that he could beat guys 240 pounds plus.

Why did they introduce the cruiserweight title ? The main reason was money. With a another division there is more titles. More titles equals more money. At least in the short run.
There should not be a straw weight, a junior flyweight or junior bantam weight. They exist so that there are more titles. And with it more title fights and more money.

[funso banjo baby]

Check YouTube
Look at Brian minto v Chris arreola
Then look at Chris arreola v klit

It's an eye opener, and minto is the size of average heavies in the 20th century maybe a few pounds heavier?

What will looking at a no skills journeyman and a tough low talent blob teach us?

Minto would have lost to every champ and serious contender in history, and Arreola got flattened by Stiverne, one of the worst champs in history.

Think I'll pass.

Just comparing the size, not skills.
The gap is much wider now and will continue to get wider.

Usyk and Ruiz beat Joshua but neither have fought for the legitimate world title yet

Even the days of the Brewsters have gone.
lamon's success against the giants was based on the fact he got inside regardless of the punishment, face first.

We wait to see if usyk can against Fury, if Fury stays on.
Ruiz wouldn't get anywhere near all night

[oogiebe]

Check YouTube
Look at Brian minto v Chris arreola
Then look at Chris arreola v klit

It's an eye opener, and minto is the size of average heavies in the 20th century maybe a few pounds heavier?

What will looking at a no skills journeyman and a tough low talent blob teach us?

Minto would have lost to every champ and serious contender in history, and Arreola got flattened by Stiverne, one of the worst champs in history.

Think I'll pass.

Just comparing the size, not skills.
The gap is much wider now and will continue to get wider.

Usyk and Ruiz beat Joshua but neither have fought for the legitimate world title yet

Even the days of the Brewsters have gone.
lamon's success against the giants was based on the fact he got inside regardless of the punishment, face first.

We wait to see if usyk can against Fury, if Fury stays on.
Ruiz wouldn't get anywhere near all night

??

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Glass jaw and long term world champion just don’t go together. It’s ridiculous to even suggest it.

Yet it happened. Watch the Sanders fight. Or the Brewster fight. Barely survived the wild swinging Peter. None of these guys were considered much before the fight. Might have been a reason why he never fought Lewis when it was the biggest fight out there for so long. Says a lot about the competition that he faced as a long term champion.

- Was you born yesterday?

Sanders was a 3 sport legend who knocked Rahman as far out of the ring without crashing to the stadium floor as possible. Stretched over the ropes, the ref was spellbound before reacting to pull him off with a total interference that probably lasted 20 secs in total. Credit to Rahman who recovered to rock Sanders to the ropes and launch a flurry that got the fight stopped with Corrie protecting himself. >>>>> a year later and Rahman gives Lewis a breezy South African walking tour before walking him into a one punch 10 count. Yeah, that Rahman!

And yeah, that Sanders who as a lefty and fast starting KO artist and South African was highly avoided, but Wlad gave him a chance while still with his AMA Soviet Trainer in a postage stamp ring that we talked about afterwards. The Ks were poorly managed in a dirty professional sport in the beginning until Manny ditched the US to move to Germany.

Brewster fight had wagering suspended a week before the fight due a massive wad of Brit $$$ put on Brewster who would've be the equivalent then of Christian Hammer. It was the Manny debut with a beatdown such that Roy had been screaming to stop the fight early on. The always regrettable Robert Byrd missed a clear KD that had Brewster diving at Wlad ankles that collapsed him. The pace had been easy and one sided, but Byrd had to help Wlad up. 5th round and he can barely hold his hands up for defense as Brewster goes wild with air swings. Bell rings with a last air swing as Wlad bounces off the rope to collapse, not a KD. He can't get up, so corner rushes in to put him on a stool insensible as Byrd rules TKO.

I shot off my bar stool at the little hotel I was at screaming DRUGGED in my mind, the most blatant case I'd ever seen. HBO and Roy were flummoxed, so replayed the fight that I rewatched with the Hotel manager who years before had been in Sugar Shane's corner. I didn't tell him the result in advance, and being the Hotel manager he could jump off his stool to shout drugged as loud as he wanted.

Can read about it in boxrec wiki that are somewhat off, but enough to see Wlad had been slipped the Mickey that put Manny in a very uncomfortable place for a while.

Peter was a rampaging primordial top ten 250 lb beast clubbing down fighters like bowling pins while calling out Toney who made himself invisibly mute. Mgrs couldn't get credible opponents until Wlad volunteered. It was an easy boxing of crude Peter until one of his wild Rabbit clobbers downed Wlad whereupon he rabbit clubbed Wlad repeatedly that earned Peter a deduction. If Wlad had a glass jaw, that was the time to show it, but instead rose to cooly out box Peter such that he had Peter in trouble at the final bell.

After a K record setting boxing reign never seen before in boxing history, and you still singing in soprano?

Size matters, the reason why they have weight divisions...duh. And the trend to bigger heavies is so compelling that the new Bridgetteweight division was created that has been a joke so far, but certainly one you deserve...snickers...

[Ezzard]

Larry Holmes now saying that US Heavies are too small to compete with British giants.

[Riddick Bowie]

Larry Holmes now saying that US Heavies are too small to compete with British giants.

Tell Andy Ruiz!

[DrDuke]

Larry Holmes now saying that US Heavies are too small to compete with British giants.

Tell Andy Ruiz!

To be fair, it was more of Joshua's loss than Ruiz' win, which has been proved in the rematch. Before Joshua caught Ruiz and decided to go toe-to-toe, which appeared to be his lethal mistake, Joshua was in control of the fight. He boxed from the range behind the jab, used his mobility, height and reach to keep the fat runt away (which is apparently impossible according to some posters of this thread, but somehow Joshua did that). Then he dropped Ruiz and went for the kill, which made him opened, after what he got hurt and was never able to recover. In the rematch Joshua showed the true level of Ruiz and left him no more presents.

[Riddick Bowie]

Larry Holmes now saying that US Heavies are too small to compete with British giants.

Tell Andy Ruiz!

To be fair, it was more of Joshua's loss than Ruiz' win, which has been proved in the rematch. Before Joshua caught Ruiz and decided to go toe-to-toe, which appeared to be his lethal mistake, Joshua was in control of the fight. He boxed from the range behind the jab, used his mobility, height and reach to keep the fat runt away (which is apparently impossible according to some posters of this thread, but somehow Joshua did that). Then he dropped Ruiz and went for the kill, which made him opened, after what he got hurt and was never able to recover. In the rematch Joshua showed the true level of Ruiz and left him no more presents.

Ruiz was fatter than ever for the rematch and obviously hadn't prepared properly. But Joshua is excused his loss for making a mistake and Ruiz isn't excused his loss for making a mistake. Got it.

[DrDuke]

Tell Andy Ruiz!

To be fair, it was more of Joshua's loss than Ruiz' win, which has been proved in the rematch. Before Joshua caught Ruiz and decided to go toe-to-toe, which appeared to be his lethal mistake, Joshua was in control of the fight. He boxed from the range behind the jab, used his mobility, height and reach to keep the fat runt away (which is apparently impossible according to some posters of this thread, but somehow Joshua did that). Then he dropped Ruiz and went for the kill, which made him opened, after what he got hurt and was never able to recover. In the rematch Joshua showed the true level of Ruiz and left him no more presents.

Ruiz was fatter than ever for the rematch and obviously hadn't prepared properly. But Joshua is excused his loss for making a mistake and Ruiz isn't excused his loss for making a mistake. Got it.

For some reason Ruiz looked not so good both before Joshua's mistake in the first bout and after his own mistake in the second bout. What mysterious reason caused that in the first case?

[Seamus]

One of the alltime great "So what have you been smoking" threads from the BOTP subforum

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39397&p=435929&hili ... ko#p435929

[Riddick Bowie]

One of the alltime great "So what have you been smoking" threads from the BOTP subforum

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39397&p=435929&hili ... ko#p435929

What's the big issue there? A 135lb man is a little man. A 185lb man isn't a little man.

A 330lb Valuev cannot move like a 230lb Douglas due to, among other things, gravity. A 130lb Duran is too small to hurt a heavyweight, a 185lb man is strong enough to hurt a heavyweight. Roy Jones rattled John Ruiz. Valuev in 24 rounds couldn't hurt him once. These mathematical statements abouts numbers are only approximate truths because there are so many intangibles in boxing.

[Seamus]

My only point has been the Heavyweights have gotten much bigger in the last couple decades, and it's irrelevant to make hypothetical arguments about what this guy would really weigh if he got in shape or how a sub 200 lber would just pack on some muscle and dominate, because it hasn't been happening. Tyson Fury has already proven a 6-9 guy can move when we wants to. No one's calling the Old Timers bums, just saying that the Heavyweight division is now dominated by big men.

[Ambling Alp II]

That just it, people are calling Old Timers bums, though not always in so many words.

For about 100 years, at just about any given time, you had heavyweights that weighed 175-200 or so. You also had some 200-225 or so. And you them weighed more than 225. Usually it was the guys that weighed that weighed 200-225 that were the very best. Occasionally a small guy or a big guy was.
The small guys often were quick and had good stamina. They also often didn't have the power or the ability to take a good shot. The big guys often hit hard, and could take punishment. They were also often slow, easy to hit and have poor stamina. These of course are generalizations.
However, the medium sized heavyweights are the ideal size. Good enough speed, stamina, power, durability etc.
The small heavyweights actually did better against the big heavyweights than they did the medium sized ones. Which, if you think about it, does makes sense.

[Riddick Bowie]

My only point has been the Heavyweights have gotten much bigger in the last couple decades, and it's irrelevant to make hypothetical arguments about what this guy would really weigh if he got in shape or how a sub 200 lber would just pack on some muscle and dominate, because it hasn't been happening. Tyson Fury has already proven a 6-9 guy can move when we wants to. No one's calling the Old Timers bums, just saying that the Heavyweight division is now dominated by big men.

See I'd argue Tyson Fury has proven himself the exception to the rule, mainly because there are no other examples of a man that size doing it. Vitali was 6'8'' but had two left feet and was too uncoordinated to throw combinations, relying exclusively on the one-two. Vitali's style is atypical of very big men boxing. Fury is not.

[gilgamesh]

My only point has been the Heavyweights have gotten much bigger in the last couple decades, and it's irrelevant to make hypothetical arguments about what this guy would really weigh if he got in shape or how a sub 200 lber would just pack on some muscle and dominate, because it hasn't been happening. Tyson Fury has already proven a 6-9 guy can move when we wants to. No one's calling the Old Timers bums, just saying that the Heavyweight division is now dominated by big men.

See I'd argue Tyson Fury has proven himself the exception to the rule, mainly because there are no other examples of a man that size doing it. Vitali was 6'8'' but had two left feet and was too uncoordinated to throw combinations, relying exclusively on the one-two. Vitali's style is atypical of very big men boxing. Fury is not.

Yes you very seldom see a guy that tall that can move like that. In fact, Tyson Fury is the only guy I've ever seen that fights the way he does at his size. So basically I think if you suddenly see an influx of tall guys trying to fight like Tyson Fury, much like the 80's and all it's Ali imitators, you'll see a lot of tall guys get KO'd.

[margaret thatcher]

One of the alltime great "So what have you been smoking" threads from the BOTP subforum

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39397&p=435929&hili ... ko#p435929

that's great........sam langford has the height advantage over vitali klitschko

little do these 5'7 lightweights know, theyve actually got the height advantage over these towering heavyweights of today . maybe time to make the move

[oogiebe]

My only point has been the Heavyweights have gotten much bigger in the last couple decades, and it's irrelevant to make hypothetical arguments about what this guy would really weigh if he got in shape or how a sub 200 lber would just pack on some muscle and dominate, because it hasn't been happening. Tyson Fury has already proven a 6-9 guy can move when we wants to. No one's calling the Old Timers bums, just saying that the Heavyweight division is now dominated by big men.

See I'd argue Tyson Fury has proven himself the exception to the rule, mainly because there are no other examples of a man that size doing it. Vitali was 6'8'' but had two left feet and was too uncoordinated to throw combinations, relying exclusively on the one-two. Vitali's style is atypical of very big men boxing. Fury is not.

I don't disagree, but just a minor correction (sorry, couldn't help myself). Atypical means NOT typical. I knew what you meant though.

[Controversial]

How many great fighters have their been in the last 30 years that weighed over 220? Not many. There simply have not been many of these fights lately. Why have smaller heavyweights not been successful? There have not been hardly any. Again one of our points. Many guys should be smaller.
In the "old time hw division" ? Not sure when that was. Guess it was before a person became a fan. Everything before that apparently is "old time" to many people. There used heavyweight of great of varying sizes. There guys under 200. Many 200-225 or so. Some much heavier than that.
Ultimately this is not so much about weight for many people. It's about fighters in their era being labeled the best. Some people have no real interest in boxing before their time. Weight is a convenient excuse to dismiss many fighters before their time.

I was assuming the count you made was for HWs going back 80-100+ years, thats what I meant by the older time HWs. Generally the BIG guys then weren't that good and the good HWs would likely be LHW or CW today. The 60/70s was the real turning point in HWs generally getting bigger than previous generations. Even then Foreman fought lots of guys under 200, as did Liston. But the fact remains how many guys have been successfuls from moving up from lighter weights as a major force in the HW division in the last 30+ years? Really only Holyfield, Usyk remains to be seen and Holyfield was pretty much the same size as Ali so not really small. Both would’ve been classed as fairly big HWs had they fought in Marcianos era even when they were fighting at CW.

Why did they introduce the CW division in 1979 or do you think they should go back to the 175 limit? Why do you think fighters and trainers mention size and weight so much if it's not relevant?

Obviously Holyfield. (He wasn't naturally as big as Ali) Usyk has been. Moorer was successful. Chris Byrd was successful. Jones only had the one fight but he won.

Michael Spinks was the first light heavyweight champion to win the heavyweight title. (Fitzsimmons actually won the heavyweight title first. Tunney and Charles never got a shot at the light heavyweight title. ) Obviously some tried and failed. Well under 200 is not ideal. They were at a disadvantage when fighting an opponent who was at a ideal size.

Why did they introduce the cruiserweight title ? The main reason was money. With a another division there is more titles. More titles equals more money. At least in the short run.
There should not be a straw weight, a junior flyweight or junior bantam weight. They exist so that there are more titles. And with it more title fights and more money.

A few smaller fighters winning the odd fight at HW doesn't even the playing field as it's more of a one off than a regular occurrence. Moorer, Spinks, Byrd and Jones had varying levels of success but I wouldn't say the dominated the HW division or were a major force to be reckoned with over a long period of time and none would be considered HW greats. How long ago was this now, no one in the last 30 odd years that springs to mind, maybe David Haye but again limited success. Canelo could probably beat a HW the same way Charley Burley did. A smaller skilful fighter can have success over a much bigger less skilled fighter. You are kind of contradicting yourself though as you say the CW was only introduced for money, which kind of suggests you think it should be scrapped and it goes back to the 175 limit. But then you say under 200 is not ideal. It's not ideal as its too small, thats the point. If they removed the CW division no one today weighing 175-200 would have success at HW which wasn't the case decades ago.

[Ezzard]

I'm trying to understand the thesis for the other way of thinking?

Are you saying that size is irrelevant?

Are you saying that being smaller is better? Or that there is an optimum size?

I know for sure that a bigger clone of myself would beat me in a fight. I'm pretty sure a bigger clone of any fighter would beat the original.