Thoughts now on size of HWs compared to other eras?

[Seamus]

Carnera, Simon, Baer might be fringe contenders if they were around today. Course they could end up like Tye Fields, who got annihilated by puny 6-3 220 Monte Barrett.

[Ambling Alp II]

There's a reason why Andre Ward didn't challenge Tyson Fury. If we keep talking I think we'll get there.

Is there a reason that you picked Ezzard Charles to beat David Tua?

[Ambling Alp II]

Carnera, Simon, Baer might be fringe contenders if they were around today. Course they could end up like Tye Fields, who got annihilated by puny 6-3 220 Monte Barrett.

"Might be fringe contenders"? Carnera, Simon, Baer have the size and more than the minimal talent required.
Wouldn't they be clearly in the top 10 or not?
Want to hear what people think.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

It can in your mind. Pretty sparse evidence. But if you want to call Jones a HW champion sort of shows how little proof there is.

Umm, you have Ezzard Charles beating David Tua.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=253835

Let me know when we have a 400 pound champ.

Not sure why you've sent this to me?

- Ez, take it as a compliment.

Poor Ambles thinks Ezzard Charles being mentioned favorably in a potential matchup against Tua means that he thinks you would think the same thing, perhaps even being Ezzard Charles himself beating up poor helpless Tua.

He's mentioned it again today.

Perhaps you could tell us weaklings how you accomplished that so we also might try our hand out in the Tua Come One, Come All Sweepstakes Tourney

[Controversial]

There's a reason why Andre Ward didn't challenge Tyson Fury. If we keep talking I think we'll get there.

Exactly. Ward spoke about sparring HWs a few years ago, he said he boxed better against bigger men but said even the smaller HWs were dangerous, even the cuffing shots that landed on the arms and shoulders would hurt, it would drain you quickly and it only took one punch for it to be lights out. And that's just sparring. The proof is in the pudding, Ward never fought outside the LHW division. I'm sure if he did he wouldn't be fighting them weighing just 175.

[Ezzard]

Umm, you have Ezzard Charles beating David Tua.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=253835

Let me know when we have a 400 pound champ.

Not sure why you've sent this to me?

- Ez, take it as a compliment.

Poor Ambles thinks Ezzard Charles being mentioned favorably in a potential matchup against Tua means that he thinks you would think the same thing, perhaps even being Ezzard Charles himself beating up poor helpless Tua.

He's mentioned it again today.

Perhaps you could tell us weaklings how you accomplished that so we also might try our hand out in the Tua Come One, Come All Sweepstakes Tourney

Hope you're doing well.

[Seamus]

Archie Moore was once asked what the biggest difference between fighting at LHW and HW was. He said "Heavyweight's jab feels like a Light Heavyweight's knock out punch".

[Ambling Alp II]

There's a reason why Andre Ward didn't challenge Tyson Fury. If we keep talking I think we'll get there.

Exactly. Ward spoke about sparring HWs a few years ago, he said he boxed better against bigger men but said even the smaller HWs were dangerous, even the cuffing shots that landed on the arms and shoulders would hurt, it would drain you quickly and it only took one punch for it to be lights out. And that's just sparring. The proof is in the pudding, Ward never fought outside the LHW division. I'm sure if he did he wouldn't be fighting them weighing just 175.

And I have said about a million times now that under 200 isn't ideal. All I have said is that a smaller guy has actually proven in the real world that he can do it, than we should admit that it happened.

If Billy Conn had never fought Joe Louis, almost everyone would be saying that he would have been blown out early by Louis. Because after all, Louis was much bigger than Conn.

If Louis had never fought Baer, Simon, and Carnera, people would be saying that he would have lost badly to them. Because after all, they were all much bigger than Louis.

Same with Dempsey.

[Controversial]

There's a reason why Andre Ward didn't challenge Tyson Fury. If we keep talking I think we'll get there.

Exactly. Ward spoke about sparring HWs a few years ago, he said he boxed better against bigger men but said even the smaller HWs were dangerous, even the cuffing shots that landed on the arms and shoulders would hurt, it would drain you quickly and it only took one punch for it to be lights out. And that's just sparring. The proof is in the pudding, Ward never fought outside the LHW division. I'm sure if he did he wouldn't be fighting them weighing just 175.

And I have said about a million times now that Under 200 isn't ideal. All I have said is that a guy has actually proven that he can do it, than we should admit that it happened.

Eh. You said earlier Conn at 169 could give anyone today trouble?

[Ambling Alp II]

Of course not. He was too small. Nothing more to consider.

How about it? Would Carnera, Simon and Baer be in the top 10 today? Yes or no?

[Controversial]

You are still avoiding the question. Can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.

I could see Conn giving anyone fighting today trouble.

And I have said about a million times now that under 200 isn't ideal.

Eh. You said earlier Conn at 169 could give anyone today trouble?

Of course not. He was too small. Nothing more to consider.

How about it? Would Carnera, Simon and Buddy Baer be in the top 10 today? Yes or no?

You said it. Well at least you're not taking your reasoning to silly levels anymore.

No I can't see them in the top 10 today but like any HW they have a punchers chance, especially if they are fighting average skilled opponents, which less face it lots of HWs over the decades have been average. Shavers had a big punch and that was about it yet he gave Ali and Holmes fits and would be capable of knocking pretty much anyone out if he connected but that doesn't make him a great fighter.


.

[Seamus]

I think Baer could crack the top 10 if he had management similar to Cooney or Morrison. Put him in with some names who are past it so he could score early impressive KO's, but I don't think he'd go much further.

[Ezzard]

From what I've seen of those guys, then no. Joe Joyce is currently ranked about number 10 on Boxrec and I don't see any of them having any success with him.

That's not to say in the 4 belt era, with good management and generous matchmaking, they couldn't break into the top top of the WBO, at least until they met a decent contender.

[Seamus]

How about just answering when we'll have a dominant 205 or thereabouts, champion, and what's his name ?

[Ambling Alp II]

Since there is hardly anyone that is 205, it isn't likely is it? When are we going to get one that is 405?

[Ambling Alp II]

Umm, you have Ezzard Charles beating David Tua.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=253835

Let me know when we have a 400 pound champ.

Not sure why you've sent this to me?

- Ez, take it as a compliment.

Poor Ambles thinks Ezzard Charles being mentioned favorably in a potential matchup against Tua means that he thinks you would think the same thing, perhaps even being Ezzard Charles himself beating up poor helpless Tua.

He's mentioned it again today.

Perhaps you could tell us weaklings how you accomplished that so we also might try our hand out in the Tua Come One, Come All Sweepstakes Tourney

Ezzard himself (not me) picked Ezzard Charles to beat Tua in the Mythical Fights Section.
Yet he seems to think a guy under 200 fighting in the heavyweight division is a joke.
That really makes no sense so I called him on it.
He did not respond.

[Controversial]

Not sure why you've sent this to me?

- Ez, take it as a compliment.

Poor Ambles thinks Ezzard Charles being mentioned favorably in a potential matchup against Tua means that he thinks you would think the same thing, perhaps even being Ezzard Charles himself beating up poor helpless Tua.

He's mentioned it again today.

Perhaps you could tell us weaklings how you accomplished that so we also might try our hand out in the Tua Come One, Come All Sweepstakes Tourney

Ezzard himself (not me) picked Ezzard Charles to beat Tua in the Mythical Fights Section.
Yet he seems to think a guy under 200 fighting in the heavyweight division is a joke.
That really makes no sense so I called him on it.
He did not respond.

I can’t see Ezzard commenting on the Charles and Tua thread you posted? I think you misread it

[Ambling Alp II]

You are still avoiding the question. Can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.

I could see Conn giving anyone fighting today trouble.

And I have said about a million times now that under 200 isn't ideal.

Eh. You said earlier Conn at 169 could give anyone today trouble?

Of course not. He was too small. Nothing more to consider.

How about it? Would Carnera, Simon and Buddy Baer be in the top 10 today? Yes or no?

You said it. Well at least you're not taking your reasoning to silly levels anymore.

No I can't see them in the top 10 today but like any HW they have a punchers chance, especially if they are fighting average skilled opponents, which less face it lots of HWs over the decades have been average. Shavers had a big punch and that was about it yet he gave Ali and Holmes fits and would be capable of knocking pretty much anyone out if he connected but that doesn't make him a great fighter.


.

Carnera Baer and Simon had some ability. They certainly had a higher work rate than most current heavyweights.
Which is something is overlooked. Earnie Shavers wasn't just a hard puncher. He threw a lot punchers. Therefore he was much more likely land a big one, unlike say Wilder. That makes him a lot more dangerous than Wilder, and better.

Yes lots eras the heavyweight division has been average or worse. It has never been this bad for this long.

That Carnera, Baer and Simon would not be in the Top 10 today says a lot.
Keep hearing about size. They have the size.
Now we have to pretend that there are tons of current big heavyweights with wonderful skills?

There are really two reasons why current fans can't say that would be in the Top 10.

1. For some it is that simply that they fought well before there time. They have no use for fighters way before their time.
2. For others, if they admit that they would have been in the top 10 and Joe Louis destroyed them, the obvious conclusion that follows is (which they don't to get into) that Joe Louis would have beaten the crap of the recent heavyweights as well.
And Joe Louis was not that big.

[Ambling Alp II]

- Ez, take it as a compliment.

Poor Ambles thinks Ezzard Charles being mentioned favorably in a potential matchup against Tua means that he thinks you would think the same thing, perhaps even being Ezzard Charles himself beating up poor helpless Tua.

He's mentioned it again today.

Perhaps you could tell us weaklings how you accomplished that so we also might try our hand out in the Tua Come One, Come All Sweepstakes Tourney

Ezzard himself (not me) picked Ezzard Charles to beat Tua in the Mythical Fights Section.
Yet he seems to think a guy under 200 fighting in the heavyweight division is a joke.
That really makes no sense so I called him on it.
He did not respond.

I can’t see Ezzard commenting on the Charles and Tua thread you posted? I think you misread it

My apologies. That was someoene else that was commenting earlier on this thread and the Charles-Tua thread; not Ezzard. Sorry Ezzard.

[oogiebe]

Ezzard himself (not me) picked Ezzard Charles to beat Tua in the Mythical Fights Section.
Yet he seems to think a guy under 200 fighting in the heavyweight division is a joke.
That really makes no sense so I called him on it.
He did not respond.

I can’t see Ezzard commenting on the Charles and Tua thread you posted? I think you misread it

My apologies. That was someoene else that was commenting earlier on this thread and the Charles-Tua thread; not Ezzard. Sorry Ezzard.

LMAO! All that for nothing.

[Ezzard]

Since there is hardly anyone that is 205, it isn't likely is it? When are we going to get one that is 405?

Our argument is that there are plenty of fighters at 205. They are Cruisers.

Thanks for the message. I tried t reply but it's stuck in my outbox. You are a gent. And, in the nicest possible way, it's a pleasure disagreeing with you.

[Controversial]

Carnera Baer and Simon had some ability. They certainly had a higher work rate than most current heavyweights.
Which is something is overlooked. Earnie Shavers wasn't just a hard puncher. He threw a lot punchers. Therefore he was much more likely land a big one, unlike say Wilder. That makes him a lot more dangerous than Wilder, and better.

Yes lots eras the heavyweight division has been average or worse. It has never been this bad for this long.

That Carnera, Baer and Simon would not be in the Top 10 today says a lot.
Keep hearing about size. They have the size.
Now we have to pretend that there are tons of current big heavyweights with wonderful skills?

There are really two reasons why current fans can't say that would be in the Top 10.

1. For some it is that simply that they fought well before there time. They have no use for fighters way before their time.
2. For others, if they admit that they would have been in the top 10 and Joe Louis destroyed them, the obvious conclusion that follows is (which they don't to get into) that Joe Louis would have beaten the crap of the recent heavyweights as well.
And Joe Louis was not that big.

Whether people think they could be top 10 ranked today or not doesn't really matter. They weren't particularly skilled so it's not surprising a smaller ATG would beat them. I could see David Price beating Carnera, Buddy Baer and Abe Simon too. But I can't see a 169 fighter outboxing the best HWs of the division now, you even admitted they would be too small.

[Ambling Alp II]

If they wouldn't have fought, I would not have thought thought that Conn would have fought so well against the 2nd best heavyweight of all time either. But he did. It didn't seem like a fluke. If he could do that, it's not out of the question that he could compete against people not nearly as good as Louis.

But it's very revealing that people don't think Carnera, Simon and Baer would be in the top 10. Weight is just a convenient excuse for many people. They just want to talk about the recent heavyweights and dismiss those that came before their time.

The heavyweight division has be bad for a really long time. About 20 years. 12 rounds of stare downs and clinchfests. This is a major reason why so many people gave up on the sport.

But anyway, we might as well get to the big question. Would a prime Joe Louis be the best heavyweight today?

[margaret thatcher]

agreed, and if tony galento could drop the atg #2, and hurt him multiple times, he must've been a serious serious fighter. perhaps a heavyweight champ in several eras. doesnt get enough credit does he

[Wee Tommy]

agreed, and if tony galento could drop the atg #2, and hurt him multiple times, he must've been a serious serious fighter. perhaps a heavyweight champ in several eras. doesnt get enough credit does he

Yet he was a renowned fighter in his day, very tough and strong and a monster puncher. Rocky Marciano said he he was the most dangerous street fighter in America. Didn’t you see a man built like him destroy your boi AJ?