sam langford vs vitali klitscshko

[Sweet P]

Regardless of the shoulder injury Vitali was not dominating Byrd in any sense. I had him leading on the scorecards after 9 but the fight was much close than Lederman and the official judges had it.

If feather-fisted Byrd can be competetive with Vitali P4P all time great and knockout puncher Langford sure can beat big brother

Langford is an alltime great but at what weight, He aint a heavyweight and at 185 i couldnt see him KOin Klitshko, He may take him on points but he might also be KOd himself.

[pound per pound]

I love how Tyson gets a special pass for some reason in these debates. He was a small HW, 5'10, 71'' reach, 215ish at his best. But then the people who sing Tyson's praises to high heaven and say he KO's every fighter who ever lived, say a 6'2, 205 lb Joe Louis was too small!!!! And people forget that Ali was his best was 210-214. But I never hear people saying he wouldn't be undisputed today.

Makes absolutely no sense.

You are the same people who were claiming Toney faked his achilles injury prior to his fight with McCline b/c he was scared to fight the big man!!! I remember!!

Yes Vitali is a big man but with all that size comes drawbacks. In ridiculously slow fights with Sanders and Williams, both fighters who were woefully out of condition, he was breathing hard with his mouth open by the 5th round and even minutes after the stoppage Vitali couldn't even talk straight after the Sanders fight he looked like he was about to have an asthma attack. Even an old fat Lennox was coming on top in the 6th round as Vitali was tiring out from the pace even though as the younger trimmer man he should've been dominating under those circumstances.

Langford was a guy with a great chin, fantastic ring skills which enabled him as a blind man to knockout big young Heavyweights, knockout power in both hands, and could fight at a fast pace for 20 rounds.

He was short . .anyone see how it might be difficult for a 6'8 guy to land clean heads shots on a man so much shorter who was a master at rolling and slipping shots??? On the contrary Vitali's body would right there for Sam.

I'll match Vitali punch stats vs just about anyone. Don't confuse breathing techniques with being tired as they are different things. In truth, Vitlai's punch out put is more than Ali's, Foreman’s or Frazier’s.

Sometimes Marciano threw more punches. I did see him arm weary vs Archie Moore late in the fight.

Tyson wasn’t small. He was extremely compact and at 215 pounds weighed about 40 pounds more than Langford. Tyson also hit much harder than Langford. Do you really think Tyson takes journeyman the distance like Langford did?

Punch-stats don't mean jack . . .they count paws and pit-pats as full punches. Here's Vitali http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOCavvbMY2A

Here's Ali-Frazier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPBYhXBBYwg

If you can't tell the difference, http://www.ispectacle.com/

A few things Dempsey fire.

1 ) If you watch Vitlai early in the Williams fight, he floors him and cuts him, which is something Tyson could not do despite landing some heavy bombs. So much for pit-pat punches junk.

2 )Vitali's defense looks pretty good. See how the 6'1" Williams with a much longer reach than Langford has a hard time hitting a 6'8" target who fights tall, has good punch anticipation, and moves his feet. If not watch the clip again. In fact watch any of Vitali's fights. He makes lost of guys miss. Do you really think a much smaller guy could land any easier?

3 ) Vitlai won the fight with sore hands. So much for the quitter label.

4 ) Tired fighters don't throw a lot of punches. Vitlai averaged 71 punches a round in the Williams fight. This is more than Ali or Frazier threw on average in their fights. So much for Vitali did not have good stamina.

[dempseyfire]

I'll match Vitali punch stats vs just about anyone. Don't confuse breathing techniques with being tired as they are different things. In truth, Vitlai's punch out put is more than Ali's, Foreman’s or Frazier’s.

Sometimes Marciano threw more punches. I did see him arm weary vs Archie Moore late in the fight.

Tyson wasn’t small. He was extremely compact and at 215 pounds weighed about 40 pounds more than Langford. Tyson also hit much harder than Langford. Do you really think Tyson takes journeyman the distance like Langford did?

Punch-stats don't mean jack . . .they count paws and pit-pats as full punches. Here's Vitali http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOCavvbMY2A

Here's Ali-Frazier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPBYhXBBYwg

If you can't tell the difference, http://www.ispectacle.com/

A few things Dempsey fire.

1 ) If you watch Vitlai early in the Williams fight, he floors him and cuts him, which is something Tyson could not do despite landing some heavy bombs. So much for pit-pat punches junk.

2 )Vitali's defense looks pretty good. See how the 6'1" Williams with a much longer reach than Langford has a hard time hitting a 6'8" target who fights tall, has good punch anticipation, and moves his feet. If not watch the clip again. In fact watch any of Vitali's fights. He makes lost of guys miss. Do you really think a much smaller guy could land any easier?

3 ) Vitlai won the fight with sore hands. So much for the quitter label.

4 ) Tired fighters don't throw a lot of punches. Vitlai averaged 71 punches a round in the Williams fight. This is more than Ali or Frazier threw on average in their fights. So much for Vitali did not have good stamina.

You didn't fully understand what I was saying. Many of Vitali's punches are more defensive jabs/deflection shots to keep the other fighter occupied. Yet they count the same as the usually much harder shots Ali and Frazier threw at their best in the punch-counts, which is why punch-count is NOT an accurate measure of a fighter's true work-rate during a fight. Yes, Klitschko also threw some hard punches . . .this is a boxing match after-all.

The 6'1 Williams weighed 270 lbs. His footspeed was that of a beached whale. Not that hard to evade with decent boxing skills and side-stepping, which is what Vitali employed (who I have said was a decent boxer) Langford would be MUCH quicker of hand and foot, and not simply plod forward eating punches. Langford as the much shorter man also wouldn't stand straight up like Williams did. Williams' skill-level demonstrated in that fight didn't match what you'll see at some Jr. Golden Gloves . . .

Won the fight with sore hands? Wow, he did what 95% of other boxers do routinely. I never said Vitali was a big pussy but I don't think he was as tough as Langford or Sam's contemps.

[Cojimar 1945]

Langford was better in his era than Vitali was in his.

[BoxBuzz]

Langford was better in his era than Vitali was in his.

I can not faithfully express how long I have been waiting for someone to capture this thought and express it here. It is profound and captures the most important aspect of this discussion. IMHO.

Until you frame the conversation in this manner it is comparing apples and oranges. I also agree with the premise wholeheartedly.

[JCS]

Sam Langford being almost as big as Chris Byrd has nothing to do with anything. (Which is bullshit anyways, 5'7" 180lbs is not 6' 210lbs)

His style is nothing like Chris Byrd's.

I don't care about artificial weight gain. Anyone can blow themselves up 20 lbs through Creatine and eating. Byrd naturally is a light HW. Natural bone and tendon strength is much more important than just adding mass onto a frame. I would bet my car Langford not only hit 10 times as hard as Byrd but was also much stronger.

Can creatine and eating make an adult male grow 5 inches as well?

[Collins2000]

Langford was better in his era than Vitali was in his.

I can not faithfully express how long I have been waiting for someone to capture this thought and express it here. It is profound and captures the most important aspect of this discussion. IMHO.

Until you frame the conversation in this manner it is comparing apples and oranges. I also agree with the premise wholeheartedly.

This thread didn't specify that you had to consider their respective eras in the making of your choice (not that it would matter anyway), so I don't know what the eff you're going on about.

To be honest, this thread is great comedy. If anyone posted something like it at any other boxing forum in the world, they'd be ridiculed.

What about the one at ESB by Nick Wells Jnr about how his old man was ducked by Larry Holmes during Holmes' title reign?

That ran for pages and pages. There were threats and challenges to meet to sort things out man to man. It was hilarious. Old man Wells even came on and formed a tag team with Jnr. I thought I was reading a fekkin WWE script. Hilarious and pathetic at the same time.

The moderators here are not without fault, but at least they keep most of the total nutters out.

[margaret thatcher]

the best part was that sam actually has the height advantage

To be honest, this thread is great comedy. If anyone posted something like it at any other boxing forum in the world, they'd be ridiculed.

but that's what makes it such a fun read lol

[Crease]

Sam was a great fighter, but HW was not his best weight. There is a massive physical difference here. Vitali is/was the best Klitchsko brother in my book - I think you have to give it to Vitali...

[Ambling Alp II]

Langford was a great heavyweight. Vitaly wasn't remotely close to being one. We don't know what he weighed for many of his fights. But we know that Langford beat great heavyweights. Some even heavier and/or taller than the legendary Chris Byrd. Whom Vitali was unable to beat.

[Wee Tommy]

Langford was a great heavyweight. Vitaly wasn't remotely close to being one. We don't know what he weighed for many of his fights. But we know that Langford beat great heavyweights. Some even heavier and/or taller than the legendary Chris Byrd. Whom Vitali was unable to beat.

Jack Dempsey admitted to being afraid to fight Sam because he felt he would get knocked out. Any man he could hit he could finish.

Langford for me.

[DrDuke]

Dempsey ducked Sam "The Weight Bully" Langford, because he saw how scared Vitali was running from Sammy.

[tiny_acres]

No one has a softer spot for the older fighters than me but I have a hard time with the size differential to let my pining for the olden days get the better of my good senses. I suppose if your going to bet on Langford over a Klitschko you'd have to call him over Valuev too.

Wouldnt this be similar to a Buster Douglas Roberto Duran Matchup? You really gonna take Duran? Hmm well maybe ...but it sure is a mind stretch. If you were forced to put your house up as a bet...you still going to bet on Langford? I'm strugglin with it.

This sums up my opinion. Buzz has good points on this topic

[margaret thatcher]

Langford was a great heavyweight. Vitaly wasn't remotely close to being one. We don't know what he weighed for many of his fights. But we know that Langford beat great heavyweights. Some even heavier and/or taller than the legendary Chris Byrd. Whom Vitali was unable to beat.

Jack Dempsey admitted to being afraid to fight Sam because he felt he would get knocked out. Any man he could hit he could finish.

Langford for me.

whatever he hits, he destroys!

[tiny_acres]

Langford was a great heavyweight. Vitaly wasn't remotely close to being one. We don't know what he weighed for many of his fights. But we know that Langford beat great heavyweights. Some even heavier and/or taller than the legendary Chris Byrd. Whom Vitali was unable to beat.

Jack Dempsey admitted to being afraid to fight Sam because he felt he would get knocked out. Any man he could hit he could finish.

Langford for me.

whatever he hits, he destroys!

Yes he was the midget Ivan Drago

[margaret thatcher]

lol, pretty much

[Wee Tommy]

[Cap]

I don't know about old Sam (my favourite old timer) but Vitali Klitschko (now mayor of Kyiv) would, in his prime definitely knockout Tyson "Flabby Fury" in two or three rounds. Unless, of course, Fury hugged or ran in every round. I still recall watching Neven Pajkic put Fury on his backside. If that had been Vitali instead of Neven, it would have been all over.

[pound per pound]

Langford was a great heavyweight. Vitaly wasn't remotely close to being one. We don't know what he weighed for many of his fights. But we know that Langford beat great heavyweights. Some even heavier and/or taller than the legendary Chris Byrd. Whom Vitali was unable to beat.

Vitali was a great heavyweight and heavyweight champion which Langford was unable to attain. He lost the Byrd fight due to injury. That's all, he was in the lead and tore up his shoulder. Everyone knows that fact. Byrd was shocked he retired. A re-match would heavily favor Vitali, but the powers in boxing did not want to give up Byrd's belt so quickly. Byrd was at his best back then, Vitali not close to his prime at 27-0, 27 KO's. I love Sam but come on, he 's not winning here.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't know about old Sam (my favourite old timer) but Vitali Klitschko (now mayor of Kyiv) would, in his prime definitely knockout Tyson "Flabby Fury" in two or three rounds. Unless, of course, Fury hugged or ran in every round. I still recall watching Neven Pajkic put Fury on his backside. If that had been Vitali instead of Neven, it would have been all over.

So the basis of your assessment of Tyson Fury (overall) is his 17th outing as a pro? How deluded. No offense, but what are the qualifications of being a journalist or historian or editor in this business of boxing?

What kind of logic is it saying Vitali Klitschko at the peak of his powers would defeat Tyson Fury (right now as world champion) on the basis of a fight that happened eleven years ago when Fury was still relatively green?

Anyways, back to Langford. I consider him to be the greatest boxer of all time regardless of weight class but there comes a point when all the skills in the world, all the willingness in the world, comes to a dead end. Much as I respect Harry Wills, he's got to be one of the more overrated heavyweights of all time--- but Langford could do nothing with him. And as far as I'm concerned Klitschko was better in virtually every respect than Wills.

[Cap]

As for Flabby Fury, it was Neven Pajkic's 17th fight too when he came close to putting Fury away. Fury is a "champion" in the absolute worst era in heavyweight history, even worse than the 80's. The only reason so many Brits are considered contenders now is the lack of another outlet for giant athletes in England and the shift to basketball, football and baseball for American athletes.

Sam Langford P4P best of all time, but he couldn't overcome a skilled big man like Vitali Klitschko. Even no talent mountains-of-flesh like Valuev and Fury would be too much.

[Controversial]

The problem I have with a lot of these really old timers is there is a lot of myth and hearsay about them. The era was corrupt in many ways, medical checks didn't happen, accurate record keeping was non-existent and lots of the 'professional' fighters were guys just fighting to feed their families, many weren't very good. Langford fought for 5+ years pretty much blind in one eye and still had success. How many guys are going to be in great physical condition after 24 years and over 250 fights? These guys were great in their era but to suggest he would beat up someone a foot taller, 70 odd pounds heavier is nonsense.

[Ambling Alp II]

That Langford was blind in one eye and had well over 250 fights is something that are holding against him? Wow.

Boxing was in many ways corrupt back then? Like it's much better not now?
What does it matter if one state commission says a guy can't fight because of a medical condition? He can fight someone else.
If you are worried about record keeping, you can always go go the Boxrec Database. Sure there are occasionally fights missing, but pretty sure you can an idea.
Of course there were guys who weren't very good. That had always been the case and always will be. There has to tomato cans to be spoofed to puff up people's records.

Almost anyone in their 20s can get a boxing license. That's the way it has been.

Look at heavyweight boxing in recent times. A prospect spends his first three-four years against complete stiffs that he can't possibly lose to. No fights against tough veterans or other prospects. Got have that pretty record
He is now 15-0 or 20-0 or whatever. How much has he really learned?
Then he goes for a WBS title against a title holder that did the same thing. How often does he fight after that?

Fighters reach their potential when they fight several fights against tough opponents. When that are challenged both coming up and after they have been fighting for a while.

Sam Lanford had more fights against Hall of Famers than some top recent heavyweights have fights.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't know about old Sam (my favourite old timer) but Vitali Klitschko (now mayor of Kyiv) would, in his prime definitely knockout Tyson "Flabby Fury" in two or three rounds. Unless, of course, Fury hugged or ran in every round. I still recall watching Neven Pajkic put Fury on his backside. If that had been Vitali instead of Neven, it would have been all over.

So the basis of your assessment of Tyson Fury (overall) is his 17th outing as a pro? How deluded. No offense, but what are the qualifications of being a journalist or historian or editor in this business of boxing?

What kind of logic is it saying Vitali Klitschko at the peak of his powers would defeat Tyson Fury (right now as world champion) on the basis of a fight that happened eleven years ago when Fury was still relatively green?

Anyways, back to Langford. I consider him to be the greatest boxer of all time regardless of weight class but there comes a point when all the skills in the world, all the willingness in the world, comes to a dead end. Much as I respect Harry Wills, he's got to be one of the more overrated heavyweights of all time--- but Langford could do nothing with him. And as far as I'm concerned Klitschko was better in virtually every respect than Wills.

"Much as I respect Harry Wills, he's got to be one of the more overrated heavyweights of all time--- but Langford could do nothing with him. And as far as I'm concerned Klitschko was better in virtually every respect than Wills."

Well Langford did knock Wills out twice, so there is that.

Klitschko better in every respect than Wills?
Wills was better at just about everything that Quitsko.

Harry Wills overrated? wtf.

[Controversial]

That Langford was blind in one eye and had well over 250 fights is something that are holding against him? Wow.

Boxing was in many ways corrupt back then? Like it's much better not now?
What does it matter if one state commission says a guy can't fight because of a medical condition? He can fight someone else.
If you are worried about record keeping, you can always go go the Boxrec Database. Sure there are occasionally fights missing, but pretty sure you can an idea.
Of course there were guys who weren't very good. That had always been the case and always will be. There has to tomato cans to be spoofed to puff up people's records.

Almost anyone in their 20s can get a boxing license. That's the way it has been.

Look at heavyweight boxing in recent times. A prospect spends his first three-four years against complete stiffs that he can't possibly lose to. No fights against tough veterans or other prospects. Got have that pretty record
He is now 15-0 or 20-0 or whatever. How much has he really learned?
Then he goes for a WBS title against a title holder that did the same thing. How often does he fight after that?

Fighters reach their potential when they fight several fights against tough opponents. When that are challenged both coming up and after they have been fighting for a while.

Sam Lanford had more fights against Hall of Famers than some top recent heavyweights have fights.

Yes because it just begs the question why was someone half blind and still boxing after decades still able to have success? That says more about the level of opposition to me. Boxing is the hardest sport in the world, most top fighters in recent times are pretty much done after 30-50 fights. Or once they hit their mid 30s. Their bodies start breaking down or they start to decline. There are exceptions of course but boxing on the whole is a young mans sport. I just don't believe a lot of these old timers who had hundreds of fights were in as great physical or mental condition as many would like to believe. Especially when that era living and health conditions were pretty bad to start with.

I meant record keeping in those times wasn’t a thing, it was easier to lie about your record. There was no internet, video etc to check. Guys could pretty much claim what they liked. Boxing still is the most corrupt sport in the world but again I think it was a lot more common back then because people were more desperate for money and there were a lot more people boxing than there are today.



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