FantasyMatchup 1: Roy Jones Jr. vs. Rocky Marciano

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

im pretty sure people were calling dokes washed up after he took a long layoff from the coetzee loss......

Not sure he was being called washed up, but he wasn’t generally regarded as one of the very top HWs at that time. I live in Akron so am pretty familiar with Dokes, and he was a truly wasted talent. I would agree that he was very much on the decline when he fought Holyfield although he still had a lot left. Of course at no time was he in the same class as Charles. Even in his prime I don’t think he was quite as good as the faded Charles that fought Rocky in their first encounter.

i agree.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

barry wuts ur opinion on marciano vs holyfield and lennox?

[evndrbsn]

evsrbn, holys biggest fan claims holyfields prime was 89-93. i agree.... u will see holy looks a lot faster, sharper, his reflexes are better in these years. so were taking the 205lb holyfield of these years. not the slower, bulked up holyfield.

As much as I repect evndrbsn's opinion I dont agree with him on this point. It was the second lightest he ever weighed as a heavyweight and lost his only fight. Holyifled best preformances were around the 215 range so that for me is his best fighting weight.

I meant his heavyweight prime was '89 to '93. Holyfield is a very difficult fighter to gauge for his prime years, though. I have always maintained that Holyfield's prime years were from 1986/1987 to 1992. I feel that when Holyfield added unnecessary weight after the Bowe loss, effectively ending his prime. He looked for the first time truly dreadful for the rematch against Alex Stewart, which he came into the ring bone dry. With the added weight, Holyfield's speed and stamina were never the same again. He started having off nights more frequently after bulking up.

I include '93 for the rematch with Bowe, where he looked terrific. In his next fight against Moorer, he looked dreadful again, rarely stringing together his trademark combinations. I still feel that Holyfield won that fight, and it should have been ruled a draw by the judges. I'm pretty sure I read in Sports Illustrated after the fight that one of the judges scored round 2 (when Moorer was dropped) 10-10 and another scored it 10-9. The decision should have been overturned based on the 10-10 score which should not be possible on the 10 point must system with a knockdown.

I think Holyfield's best post-1993 performances were: W 10 Ray Mercer (209lbs), TKO 11 Mike Tyson (215lbs), WDQ 3 Mike Tyson (218lbs), and TKO 8 Michael Moorer (214lbs). Those were between 1995 and 1997. After that Holyfield never looked "great" again. He mustered up some good post-prime performances, notably against Lennox Lewis in the rematch (217lbs) and Hasim Rahman (216lbs). That is six fights I thought he looked impressive in since the second Bowe fight. He looked bad in the other eleven fights after 1993, where he weighed anywhere from 211 to 221. The three John Ruiz fights COULD be argued to be decent performances, given how bad John Ruiz makes people look, but I think Holyfield of a couple years earlier makes RUIZ look bad. Still, I had all three fights for Holyfield (the second fight I had 113-112 for Holyfield, even with the ridicilous point deduction. I hold stern that Holyfield KO'd Ruiz in round 10 with a body shot, not a low blow).

After clearing that up, I say that the 185 version, the 205 version, AND the 215 version of Holyfield are each too much for the best of Marciano. Holyfield at his best was simply better in every regard: he was faster, a better boxer, bigger, better stamina, better combination punching, less cut prone, and the physically stronger heavyweight. Remember that in the late 1990s and early 2000s, Holyfield was considered the most physically powerful heavyweight. Don't confuse that with the hardest hitting. I also think Holyfield had a chin on par with and probably better than Marciano.

What was the topic of this thread again? I forget.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i agree evrsbn...after taking a more careful look at evanders films and career i believe his heavyweight prime was late 80s- very early 1990s.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

After clearing that up, I say that the 185 version, the 205 version, AND the 215 version of Holyfield are each too much for the best of Marciano.

185lb version of holyfield? u mean the green holyfield who struggled incredibly with qawi who was like a smaller less powerful version of marciano?? any cruiserweight version of holyfield would defintley be knocked out by marciano IMO. especially marcianos style. qawi showed short pressure fighters give him trouble. holyfield would not be able to keep marciano off of him. marciano was defintley stronger than cruiserweight holyfield too.


even at heavyweight holy still loses to marciano.....

holyfield is tailor made for a 1951 slugger marciano. holy was easy to be drawn into a brawl. he would be drawn into a brawl by marciano and the much hard hitting, greater all around puncher, better inside fighting marciano would batter holyfield into submission. marciano would use all his leverage on the inside and his volume of hard punches would be too much for evander to handle.

Holyfield at his best was simply better in every regard: he was faster, a better boxer, bigger, better stamina, better combination punching, less cut prone, and the physically stronger heavyweight.

better stamina? :x :x :x jesus no he wasnt.


holyfield was completley dead in the late rounds of the bowe I fight.....he nearly went down from exhaustion. marciano showed far more energy in the late rounds than holy did. marciano threw 95 punches in the charles I 15th round after 14 gruelling rounds and most of them were power punches! marciano in his prime never got tired. even after 12 gruelling rounds of the walcott fight he had enough stamina to unleash possibly the greatest right hand of all time.

in comparison in holys only 15 rounder he had to go to the hospital and collasped after the qawi fight. holy made it seem like it was life and death going 15 rounds. in marciano-charles I every bit as gruelling as qawi-holy marciano still could have kept going after the final bell.


holy may have matched marciano in conditioning but he did not have better stamina than marciano. no heavyweight had better stamina than the rock. holy has shown hes gotten badly tired in many fights.........he got extremeley tired in the moorer fight too and lost cause of it. wheres this legendery stamina holy is supposed to have? honestly i seen him get badly tired in fights all the time and lose rounds because of it. this never happened to marciano






bottom line: marciano was more effective with his style than evander was. holy is the king of inconsistency. even in his prime. he was full of exuses for his bad preformances....marciano didnt make exuses

[The Great John L]

185lb version of holyfield? u mean the green holyfield who struggled incredibly with qawi who was like a smaller less powerful version of marciano??

Smaller? Marciano was also a 185 lber.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

185lb version of holyfield? u mean the green holyfield who struggled incredibly with qawi who was like a smaller less powerful version of marciano??

Smaller? Marciano was also a 185 lber.

qawi was 5'7 and a blown up light-h. marciano was 5'11 cutting from well over 200lb to make 185lb. marciano was taller, and had the thicker build.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

u can make a strong case a heavyweight holy would beat marciano. but i cant possibly see how a cruiserweight holyfield beats marciano.





barry wuts ur opinion on marciano vs holy and lennox??

[evndrbsn]

After clearing that up, I say that the 185 version, the 205 version, AND the 215 version of Holyfield are each too much for the best of Marciano.

185lb version of holyfield? u mean the green holyfield who struggled incredibly with qawi who was like a smaller less powerful version of marciano?? any cruiserweight version of holyfield would defintley be knocked out by marciano IMO. especially marcianos style. qawi showed short pressure fighters give him trouble. holyfield would not be able to keep marciano off of him. marciano was defintley stronger than cruiserweight holyfield too.


even at heavyweight holy still loses to marciano.....

holyfield is tailor made for a 1951 slugger marciano. holy was easy to be drawn into a brawl. he would be drawn into a brawl by marciano and the much hard hitting, greater all around puncher, better inside fighting marciano would batter holyfield into submission. marciano would use all his leverage on the inside and his volume of hard punches would be too much for evander to handle.

Holyfield at his best was simply better in every regard: he was faster, a better boxer, bigger, better stamina, better combination punching, less cut prone, and the physically stronger heavyweight.

better stamina? :x :x :x jesus no he wasnt.


holyfield was completley dead in the late rounds of the bowe I fight.....he nearly went down from exhaustion. marciano showed far more energy in the late rounds than holy did. marciano threw 95 punches in the charles I 15th round after 14 gruelling rounds and most of them were power punches! marciano in his prime never got tired. even after 12 gruelling rounds of the walcott fight he had enough stamina to unleash possibly the greatest right hand of all time.

in comparison in holys only 15 rounder he had to go to the hospital and collasped after the qawi fight. holy made it seem like it was life and death going 15 rounds. in marciano-charles I every bit as gruelling as qawi-holy marciano still could have kept going after the final bell.


holy may have matched marciano in conditioning but he did not have better stamina than marciano. no heavyweight had better stamina than the rock. holy has shown hes gotten badly tired in many fights.........he got extremeley tired in the moorer fight too and lost cause of it. wheres this legendery stamina holy is supposed to have? honestly i seen him get badly tired in fights all the time and lose rounds because of it. this never happened to marciano






bottom line: marciano was more effective with his style than evander was. holy is the king of inconsistency. even in his prime. he was full of exuses for his bad preformances....marciano didnt make exuses

Correction: Marciano threw 82 punches in round 15 against Charles, who threw relatively nothing in return. Most of the fight, Marciano was throwing 40 or less punches, with Charles usually throwing less. It was a good fight still, but not this non stop, back and forth fight like you remember. I suggest you watch the film again with a pen and paper and manually count the punches like I did.

Also, I don't see Marciano going toe-to-toe with the best version of Riddick Bowe like Holyfield did. Holyfield fought a stupid fight because of the media lambasting him as a weak puncher who couldn't knock anybody out. This was apparent in the first round, Holyfield was trying to take Bowe's head off. Nobody knew Bowe could take it like he did, and look what shape Bowe is in now.

How many fights did Holyfield look dreadful in before 1993? Not many. Yeah, he looked bad against Moorer in 1994. It was pretty well documented that he was ill and he even retired when it was suspected that he had a hole in his heart. Holyfield says that God cured the hole in his heart while I believe medical doctors say it was a misdiagnosis. Either way, something was very wrong with Holyfield physically and it showed in the Moorer fight. Look what happened in the rematch. It was one long continuation of Holyfield's best moment in the second round of the first fight.

Stamina is defined as:

• the strength or vigor of bodily constitution : capacity for standing fatigue
  
  Physical or moral strength to resist or withstand fatigue or hardship; endurance

Condition is defined as:

• A state of readiness or physical fitness
  
  To accustom (oneself or another) to; adapt: had to condition herself to long hours of hard work; conditioned the troops to marches at high altitudes.

How many heavyweights had greater moral strength than Evander? How many heavies had a better state of physical fitiness? Holyfield conditioned himself for the hardships of the ring and therefore had tremendous stamina to physically and mentally resist fatigue in his prime.

End point: if Marciano had taken the shots Holyfield had against Bowe in 1992, he would not have made it to round 12. Stamina and conditioning got Holyfield there.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Also, I don't see Marciano going toe-to-toe with the best version of Riddick Bowe like Holyfield did.

why not? holyfield landed a lot of punches on bowe. if he had the power marciano did he would have knocked out bowe. marciano was a greater puncher than bowe and holyfield.


even in bowes peak fight round 10 he swarmed all over holy trying to put him away and he found he punched himself out and for the 1 30 min left he was dead tired and totally ready to be taken out. holy didnt have the firepowe to do it. had that been marciano in there instead of holy, he would have stopped bowe in round 10 cause bowe was dead tired and couldnt defend himself. bowe would wear himself out trying to punch with marciano whos punches would take the life out of bowe and bowe himself will get tired from the punch rate.


bowes best best for marciano is too box. if he tries to go toe to toe with a 1951-52 marciano, he will get knocked out. that version of marciano had his full power and that marciano put guys lights out with 1 punch.

End point: if Marciano had taken the shots Holyfield had against Bowe in 1992, he would not have made it to round 12. Stamina and conditioning got Holyfield there.

NO chin and heart got holyfield there. holy was dead tired. his stamina was gone in the late rounds. he went down in the 11th more from exhaustion than anything else. only cause evander had such a good chin and had so much heart.


we can only speculate marciano would not have made it to round 12. we really dont know how good marcianos chin was.....it was never fully tested.


but IMO holys stamina does not rank among the most elite in history. it was his heart and chin that made him special. not stamina

[evndrbsn]

u can make a strong case a heavyweight holy would beat marciano. but i cant possibly see how a cruiserweight holyfield beats marciano.





barry wuts ur opinion on marciano vs holy and lennox??

Holyfield's peak at cruiserweight was not his first fight against Qawi. He learned a lot in that fight, especially to hydrate himself better before and during the fight! A peak cruiserweight Holyfield destroyed Qawi in the rematch. In 53 fights, only two people stopped Qawi. Holyfield was the first, he kept Qawi down for the ten count in round 4. George Foreman was the second, it took him seven rounds before Qawi quit mid-round. Qawi was also 32 pounds heavier and fighting one of the hardest hitters in heavyweight history.

Have you seen Holyfield's other cruiserweight title fights? He looked nearly unbeatable. I would favor this version of Holyfield over Marciano without a second thought. I'd bet everything I owned on this version of "The Real Deal," he was that good.

[evndrbsn]

Also, I don't see Marciano going toe-to-toe with the best version of Riddick Bowe like Holyfield did.

why not? holyfield landed a lot of punches on bowe. if he had the power marciano did he would have knocked out bowe. marciano was a greater puncher than bowe and holyfield.


even in bowes peak fight round 10 he swarmed all over holy trying to put him away and he found he punched himself out and for the 1 30 min left he was dead tired and totally ready to be taken out. holy didnt have the firepowe to do it. had that been marciano in there instead of holy, he would have stopped bowe in round 10 cause bowe was dead tired and couldnt defend himself. bowe would wear himself out trying to punch with marciano whos punches would take the life out of bowe and bowe himself will get tired from the punch rate.


bowes best best for marciano is too box. if he tries to go toe to toe with a 1951-52 marciano, he will get knocked out. that version of marciano had his full power and that marciano put guys lights out with 1 punch.

End point: if Marciano had taken the shots Holyfield had against Bowe in 1992, he would not have made it to round 12. Stamina and conditioning got Holyfield there.

NO chin and heart got holyfield there. holy was dead tired. his stamina was gone in the late rounds. he went down in the 11th more from exhaustion than anything else. only cause evander had such a good chin and had so much heart.


we can only speculate marciano would not have made it to round 12. we really dont know how good marcianos chin was.....it was never fully tested.


but IMO holys stamina does not rank among the most elite in history. it was his heart and chin that made him special. not stamina

What? Holyfield went down from a rabbit punch! Holyfield was holding the back of his head and drooling after he went down. That kind of punch is highly illegal and very dangerous. Joe Cortez blew that call. For those of you that don't believe me, watch it again.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

qawi was done by the rematch. that first holy-qawi fight took the life out of qawi. he was never the same again. it ruined him. foreman in 1990s was not one of the hardest hitters in heavyweight history. he had lost some of his power and lost snap on his punch. he was still heavy handed, but nowhere near the 1970s foreman power.


i have seen holyfield at cruiser. sure he looks good at beating guys like sugar deleon and henry tillman but do these guys compare to archie moore, jersey joe walcott, ezzard charles or even roland lastarza?


to tell u the truth i think dempsey and marciano are the two clear best 185lbers in history and i cant see holyfield being able to deal with either one of them at cruiserweight. both would knockout a cruiserweight evander.

[evndrbsn]

qawi was done by the rematch. that first holy-qawi fight took the life out of qawi. he was never the same again. it ruined him. foreman in 1990s was not one of the hardest hitters in heavyweight history. he had lost some of his power and lost snap on his punch. he was still heavy handed, but nowhere near the 1970s foreman power.


i have seen holyfield at cruiser. sure he looks good at beating guys like sugar deleon and henry tillman but do these guys compare to archie moore, jersey joe walcott, ezzard charles or even roland lastarza?


to tell u the truth i think dempsey and marciano are the two clear best 185lbers in history and i cant see holyfield being able to deal with either one of them at cruiserweight. both would knockout a cruiserweight evander.

Holyfield proved his mettle against Qawi in 1986 and then over the course of his entire career at heavyweight. Holyfield was most skilled as a cruiserweight and a small heavyweight. 185lb Holyfield was better schooled and more gifted than Marciano and Dempsey and just as tough. Holyfield beats them both.

I see fighters like Moore, Walcott, and Charles giving Holyfield more problems than Marciano and Dempsey. Holyfield KOs Moore in a good fight and probably Walcott, too. Charles stands the best chance at beating Holyfield, although he wasn't nearly as great when he went to the heavyweight division.

A 175lb version of Charles against a 182lb Holyfield is a tough fight to pick. Charles was THE greatest at light heavyweight so I'd favor a prime Charles over a lighter cruiserweight Holyfield probably, though it could go either way. When it comes down to the wire, Holyfield had the more durable chin in both divisions he fought in. At heavyweight, the naturally bigger Holyfield beats Charles by decision or late TKO. Its a case of a great bigger man against a great smaller man.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i think walcott would beat evander. evander defintley doesnt knockout walcott. in walcotts prime only the elite ATG punchers were able to knock him out.

[evndrbsn]

i think walcott would beat evander. evander defintley doesnt knockout walcott. in walcotts prime only the elite ATG punchers were able to knock him out.

Holyfield was an elite puncher at 185. He lost a lot of his power when he moved up to heavyweight, although he still had quite a lot of snap to his shots. He still had a good punch at heavyweight, but he was devastating at cruiserweight.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

185lb Holyfield was better schooled and more gifted than Marciano and Dempsey and just as tough. Holyfield beats them both.

yes we know there better technical boxers. but thats only one area of the fighting game. i think ur underating the value of swarmers and overating the skill of boxers. swarmers are very effective and skillfull and decieving.
marciano and dempsey would swarm all over evander and knock him out. holy loved to brawl....he will get drawn into a brawl and these guys will flatten him.

marciano and dempsey were more gifted than holy. holy didnt have any special atrributes......dempsey and marciano did(incredible god gifted power). holy was not nearly as strong at 185lb and marciano would bull him around the ring. dempsey was faster than evander and would swarm all over him in a hurry.


holy DID NOT match up well vs these type of fighters. cause holy was easy to be drawn into a brawl and he cant brawl with rock and jack and come out alive.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i think walcott would beat evander. evander defintley doesnt knockout walcott. in walcotts prime only the elite ATG punchers were able to knock him out.

Holyfield was an elite puncher at 185. He lost a lot of his power when he moved up to heavyweight, although he still had quite a lot of snap to his shots. He still had a good punch at heavyweight, but he was devastating at cruiserweight.

the only reason holy had to bulk up to face heavyweights cause he didnt have the power dempsey or marciano had. if he did he never would have had to bulk up like he did. he bulked up to 215lb to give him more strength and power to keep big guys like tyson bowe and lennox off him

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

evander was perhaps the most complete heavyweight of all time outside of joe louis. evander could do everything well and all his qualities were good. problem is he didnt have any qualities that were great which prevented him from being in the class of a muhammad ali or joe louis. he lacked that great physical attribute

[evndrbsn]

evander was perhaps the most complete heavyweight of all time outside of joe louis. evander could do everything well and all his qualities were good. problem is he didnt have any qualities that were great which prevented him from being in the class of a muhammad ali or joe louis. he lacked that great physical attribute

That's why he is my number four heavyweight behind Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, and Larry Holmes respectively.

You are right in that Holyfield was held back with his love to brawl. It made great fights but it caused him his only loss in his prime against Bowe and to take more punishment than needed.

[Love Nozzle]

Jones wont be doing what don mogard and ted lowry did..last the distance

yes he does. jr is unstoppbale

[theone]

dokes hadnt done anything in about 8 years since he last held the title and was getting heavily involved in drugs. dokes fought a helluva fight vs holyfield and showed he was still dangerous.... but he was still past his prime.

I dont get you Brock. In the post above you claim Dokes was still a dangerous opponent but ealier you stated:

also those were toe toe toe slugouts. it was charles displaying his trendous infighting skills. didnt drugged up michael dokes go toe to toe with evander holyfield and have a lot of success?

So if you acknowledge that Dokes was still a dangerous opponent why hold it against Holyfield that Dokes put up a good fight? Why the contradiction?

the only reason holy had to bulk up to face heavyweights cause he didnt have the power dempsey or marciano had. if he did he never would have had to bulk up like he did. he bulked up to 215lb to give him more strength and power to keep big guys like tyson bowe and lennox off him

How do you know he didnt have the power of either of those two? At a glance it appears that way, but look at the opponents they fought. i cant imagine Holyfield having any problems knocking out people like Willard,Brennan,Fulton,Firpo or Walcott,Cockell,Mathews or even Moore.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i cant imagine Holyfield having any problems knocking out people like Willard,Brennan,Fulton,Firpo or Walcott,Cockell,Mathews or even Moore.

DO NOT COMPARE WALCOTT AND MOORE TO THE OTHERS. THEY WERE IN A FAR HIGHER CLASS! walcott is a top 20 heavyweight of all time for crying out loud! walcott was just as good a heavyweight as ezzard charles(IMO walcott was better)


joe louis said walcott was better than charles

[evndrbsn]

i cant imagine Holyfield having any problems knocking out people like Willard,Brennan,Fulton,Firpo or Walcott,Cockell,Mathews or even Moore.

DO NOT COMPARE WALCOTT AND MOORE TO THE OTHERS. THEY WERE IN A FAR HIGHER CLASS! walcott is a top 20 heavyweight of all time for crying out loud! walcott was just as good a heavyweight as ezzard charles(IMO walcott was better)


joe louis said walcott was better than charles

Of course Louis would say Walcott was better than Charles. Louis held two wins over Walcott while Charles beat him with relative ease. Fighters say crap like that all the time. Watch the films yourself. Charles was a better overall fighter and a better heavyweight. He certainly had the better heavyweight career, unless you want to hold all the losses at the tail end of it against him when he was fighting for the money.