sonny liston and the wba box offs

[nobleart1978]

How would sonny have done if he had been included in the wba tournament ?

[goose 5]

I suspect he would have gone to the finals-unless he fought Ellis in an early bracket. Liston-Ellis, at that point in time, is a very close fight.

[oogiebe]

I suspect he would have gone to the finals-unless he fought Ellis in an early bracket. Liston-Ellis, at that point in time, is a very close fight.

He'd have trounced Ellis.

[klompton]

He would have lost to most in the tournament.

[Ambling Alp II]

It is an interesting question. Liston had been fighting journeyman since he lost to Ali the 2nd time. Hard to say how much he left at that point.

[oogiebe]

Take 'em one at a time:

Leotis Martin - 50/50 at the time
Oscar Bonevena - Liston
Jerry Quarry - Liston
Floyd Patterson - Liston
Jimmy Ellis - Liston
Karl Mildenberger - Liston
Thad Spencer - Liston
Ernie Terrell - Terrell

Couple more could go either way I guess as it's 1966/67 and Sonny didn't exactly fight any tests after second Ali loss


I think that's all.

[klompton]

Take 'em one at a time:

Leotis Martin - 50/50 at the time
Oscar Bonevena - Liston
Jerry Quarry - Liston
Floyd Patterson - Liston
Jimmy Ellis - Liston
Karl Mildenberger - Liston
Thad Spencer - Liston
Ernie Terrell - Terrell

Couple more could go either way I guess as it's 1966/67 and Sonny didn't exactly fight any tests after second Ali loss


I think that's all.

Considering Liston turned down big offers to fight Quarry and Ellis in favor of D level opposition he clearly didnt fancy his chances as much as you.

[Caractacus]

Liston ( an undisputed former HW Champ)would have beatin them all.
BTW I think Henry Cooper was also supposed to be in that tournament.

[oogiebe]

Take 'em one at a time:

Leotis Martin - 50/50 at the time
Oscar Bonevena - Liston
Jerry Quarry - Liston
Floyd Patterson - Liston
Jimmy Ellis - Liston
Karl Mildenberger - Liston
Thad Spencer - Liston
Ernie Terrell - Terrell

Couple more could go either way I guess as it's 1966/67 and Sonny didn't exactly fight any tests after second Ali loss


I think that's all.

Considering Liston turned down big offers to fight Quarry and Ellis in favor of D level opposition he clearly didnt fancy his chances as much as you.

What is clear is that no one knows what Sonny was thinking. Never read Sonny turned down offers from them, BTW.

[klompton]

Look it up. You can draw your own conclusions but he wasnt making more money or getting closer to a totle fight by fighting the likes of Sonny Moore and Billy Joiner. In reality Liston was just trying to earn as much money as possible by fighting the least threatening opposition he could while talking big about wanting a title fight but turning down any fight that could get him close. He had been exposed, lacked confidence, and was one step from retirement. He was viewed as a stepping stone by the young guys who eyed him hungrily and invariably it was always Liston who killed those fights. Its easy enough to research.

[oogiebe]

Look it up. You can draw your own conclusions but he wasnt making more money or getting closer to a totle fight by fighting the likes of Sonny Moore and Billy Joiner. In reality Liston was just trying to earn as much money as possible by fighting the least threatening opposition he could while talking big about wanting a title fight but turning down any fight that could get him close. He had been exposed, lacked confidence, and was one step from retirement. He was viewed as a stepping stone by the young guys who eyed him hungrily and invariably it was always Liston who killed those fights. Its easy enough to research.

So research it and provide the link backing up your statement that Liston turned down Ellis and Quarry please. I'm really
curious to read it for myself. I googled it, but couldn't find anything at all. Since you are so certain, maybe you can find it?

More believable is that he was blackballed after the Lewiston affair.

[Caractacus]

shheeyat, I dont think he was able to get any big fights in the USA because his Boxing license was suspended ithere after the Lewiston
'debacle"
what was Liston's biggest 'payday" there in Sweden ?
sounds like he was forced to make only 'Chump Change" whilst there.

[klompton]

Why is it my responsibility to educate you two?? Liston turned down offers to fight Quarry in LA, Las Vegas, and Houston. He was licensed and fought in all of those places. The only significant venue he was banned from was New York. Liston had never fought in New York, it didnt stop him from getting big fights or winning a title. He turned down a $50,000 offer to fight Ellis in Miami for the WBA title in 69. That would have been his highest post title payday and a championship but he turned it down. Turned down offers to fight Cleroux and Chuvalo as well. The “poor me I cant get a big fight” story is horseshit. If he was so blackballed why was he fighting in LA, Vegas, Baltimore, St. Louis, Houston, San Francisco, Reno, Pittsburgh… give me a break he was blackballed lol! He turned down Quarry as an opponent in a bout Bill Miller was promoting Las Vegas that would have been televised, both fighters appeared on an exhibition card together to promote it and then Liston bailed and went and fought Sonny Moore and Willis Earls in which both fights combined earned Liston only a fraction of what he would have gotten against Quarry and zero exposure. Liston was trying to avoid exactly what happened when he faced Leotis Martin, a very public loss that put the final nail in his career and his mystique.

[Caractacus]

My understanding is that Liston went back to Las Vegas immediatly after the Chuck Wepner (June 1970)
fight to train for his up-coming fight with Jerry Quarry.

[klompton]

My understanding is that Liston went back to Las Vegas immediatly after the Chuck Wepner (June 1970)
fight to train for his up-coming fight with Jerry Quarry.

He had already killed the Quarry fight. Besides, who trains on heroin?

[oogiebe]

Why is it my responsibility to educate you two?? Liston turned down offers to fight Quarry in LA, Las Vegas, and Houston. He was licensed and fought in all of those places. The only significant venue he was banned from was New York. Liston had never fought in New York, it didnt stop him from getting big fights or winning a title. He turned down a $50,000 offer to fight Ellis in Miami for the WBA title in 69. That would have been his highest post title payday and a championship but he turned it down. Turned down offers to fight Cleroux and Chuvalo as well. The “poor me I cant get a big fight” story is horseshit. If he was so blackballed why was he fighting in LA, Vegas, Baltimore, St. Louis, Houston, San Francisco, Reno, Pittsburgh… give me a break he was blackballed lol! He turned down Quarry as an opponent in a bout Bill Miller was promoting Las Vegas that would have been televised, both fighters appeared on an exhibition card together to promote it and then Liston bailed and went and fought Sonny Moore and Willis Earls in which both fights combined earned Liston only a fraction of what he would have gotten against Quarry and zero exposure. Liston was trying to avoid exactly what happened when he faced Leotis Martin, a very public loss that put the final nail in his career and his mystique.

Ok Klompton. We'll take your word for it.

[klompton]

Why is it my responsibility to educate you two?? Liston turned down offers to fight Quarry in LA, Las Vegas, and Houston. He was licensed and fought in all of those places. The only significant venue he was banned from was New York. Liston had never fought in New York, it didnt stop him from getting big fights or winning a title. He turned down a $50,000 offer to fight Ellis in Miami for the WBA title in 69. That would have been his highest post title payday and a championship but he turned it down. Turned down offers to fight Cleroux and Chuvalo as well. The “poor me I cant get a big fight” story is horseshit. If he was so blackballed why was he fighting in LA, Vegas, Baltimore, St. Louis, Houston, San Francisco, Reno, Pittsburgh… give me a break he was blackballed lol! He turned down Quarry as an opponent in a bout Bill Miller was promoting Las Vegas that would have been televised, both fighters appeared on an exhibition card together to promote it and then Liston bailed and went and fought Sonny Moore and Willis Earls in which both fights combined earned Liston only a fraction of what he would have gotten against Quarry and zero exposure. Liston was trying to avoid exactly what happened when he faced Leotis Martin, a very public loss that put the final nail in his career and his mystique.

Ok Klompton. We'll take your word for it.

You wouldnt have to if you got off your ass and looked instead of assuming google is the answer to every question you might have. You have to love the willfully ignorant who act like theyve won a contest by being less educated on the subject they choose to pontificate on…

[oogiebe]

Why is it my responsibility to educate you two?? Liston turned down offers to fight Quarry in LA, Las Vegas, and Houston. He was licensed and fought in all of those places. The only significant venue he was banned from was New York. Liston had never fought in New York, it didnt stop him from getting big fights or winning a title. He turned down a $50,000 offer to fight Ellis in Miami for the WBA title in 69. That would have been his highest post title payday and a championship but he turned it down. Turned down offers to fight Cleroux and Chuvalo as well. The “poor me I cant get a big fight” story is horseshit. If he was so blackballed why was he fighting in LA, Vegas, Baltimore, St. Louis, Houston, San Francisco, Reno, Pittsburgh… give me a break he was blackballed lol! He turned down Quarry as an opponent in a bout Bill Miller was promoting Las Vegas that would have been televised, both fighters appeared on an exhibition card together to promote it and then Liston bailed and went and fought Sonny Moore and Willis Earls in which both fights combined earned Liston only a fraction of what he would have gotten against Quarry and zero exposure. Liston was trying to avoid exactly what happened when he faced Leotis Martin, a very public loss that put the final nail in his career and his mystique.

Ok Klompton. We'll take your word for it.

You wouldnt have to if you got off your ass and looked instead of assuming google is the answer to every question you might have. You have to love the willfully ignorant who act like theyve won a contest by being less educated on the subject they choose to pontificate on…

Ok Klompton. Don't stress over it.

[oogiebe]

Liston was supposed to fight Chuvalo had he beaten Ali was my understanding, but of course he didn't.

Mostly one reads about being blackballed so to speak. That after Lewiston and his mob connections, boxing wanted no part of Liston again. So no big fights. Certainly can't duck what's not offered.

[klompton]

You can stick your fingers in your ears and pretend not to hear but the fights were offered. Liston didnt take them. When Chris Dundee, Bill Miller, and Aileen Eaton are offering you big fights and when you are fighting in some of the biggest cities in the USA or being offered fights in them only to turn them down to fight in places like phoenix and jaurez against nobodies, then you cant claim you are blackballed. But again, this would hinge on you actually going out and researching this subject and thats not something Liston apologists will do. Its much more convenient to argue the guy was ducked for years before he got a title shot, won the title when he was 87 years old, was forced to lose the title by the greatest conspiracy since the kennedy assassination, and then was blackballed before getting murdered by the mob or the black muslims or aliens. Rather than the more pedestrian story that the facts flesh out but which also makes Liston look less the invincible he-man and sad victim than his deluded fans would rather believe.

[oogiebe]

You can stick your fingers in your ears and pretend not to hear but the fights were offered. Liston didnt take them. When Chris Dundee, Bill Miller, and Aileen Eaton are offering you big fights and when you are fighting in some of the biggest cities in the USA or being offered fights in them only to turn them down to fight in places like phoenix and jaurez against nobodies, then you cant claim you are blackballed. But again, this would hinge on you actually going out and researching this subject and thats not something Liston apologists will do. Its much more convenient to argue the guy was ducked for years before he got a title shot, won the title when he was 87 years old, was forced to lose the title by the greatest conspiracy since the kennedy assassination, and then was blackballed before getting murdered by the mob or the black muslims or aliens. Rather than the more pedestrian story that the facts flesh out but which also makes Liston look less the invincible he-man and sad victim than his deluded fans would rather believe.

Of course you could provide some backup, but you don't. I looked up info up to the importance of it to me. You made statements and I asked to provide links. You didn't. So go on ranting and raving and posturing. I'm merely here answering the OP and we've gone another direction, so I'll say again...OK KLOMPTON!

[Tony1244]

Liston wanted to fight Quarry badly. He never turned Jerry down.

Really hard to predict how he would have done against those guys because if I was to be honest, I would have favored him over Leotis Martin.

[oogiebe]

Liston wanted to fight Quarry badly. He never turned Jerry down.

Really hard to predict how he would have done against those guys because if I was to be honest, I would have favored him over Leotis Martin.

He was beating Martin and some say on his way in for the kill when he got tagged.

[Tony1244]

Liston wanted to fight Quarry badly. He never turned Jerry down.

Really hard to predict how he would have done against those guys because if I was to be honest, I would have favored him over Leotis Martin.

He was beating Martin and some say on his way in for the kill when he got tagged.

True, same thing could certainly have happened with some of the others or visa versa.

[margaret thatcher]

leo layed sonny da f@ck out, brutal ko wasnt it