Welterweights: Carmen Basilio vs Felix "Tito" Tri

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 11 Aug 2006, 16:08

If the answer was so obvious why did you started this thread?
Is like asking can prime Ricardo Lopez defeat George Foreman?
Answer this; are Saxton and DeMarco in Tito's leage? Please keep it real.
Is DLH a class C fighter?
So let me get this straight. According to some in here Basilio is a leage above Tito because he defeated Robinson. With the same reasoning Paul Pender, Denny Moyer, Phil Moyer, Terry Downes, Mick Leahy, Memo Ayon, and Stan Harrington should be in the HOF. Great and extraordinary fighters that also defeated Robinson.
Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 11 Aug 2006, 16:17

Here's something to ponder for all comparisons of fighters from different era's. If Felix Trinidad fought in Basilio's era, would he have had such a high KO percentage ? Probably not, because fights weren't stopped as quickly then as they are now. Would Carmen Basilio have suffered a couple more losses by TKO if he fought today ? Probably, because fights are stopped alot sooner now than they were then.

theone · Post by **theone** » 12 Aug 2006, 08:46

Robinson was a lot older when he lost to those guys.

He was around the same age when he lost to Basillo. They all benefited from fighting a way past his prime Robinson. So that victory is meaningless when assessing how well Basillio would do against Trinidad.

I'd say that Saxton was about as good as Trinidad. Saxton was definitely a more skilled fighter, and had a better chin. Trinidad had an edge in power, but he never beat anyone as good as Kid Gavilan.

Trinidad was clearly a level above Saxton. Saxton was probably on par with someone like Oba Carr. Carr was a fantastic boxer, with good power and speed, but he couldnt overcome Trinidads relentlessness and crippling power. Saxton wouldnt either.
Also, Saxton was probably down as many time as Trinidad in his career and was ko'd mutilple times. Trinidad was only ko by Hopkins. Why do you feel he had a better chin?

Kid Gavilan was done by the time Saxton fought him, and you could argue the same when he beat Basillio. After the Saxton fight Gavilan lost like 15 out of 26 fights. Mostly to fighters who as Holmes so eloquently stated couldnt carry his jock strap in his prime. They definitely were not facing the man who gave Sugar Ray fits years earlier.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 12 Aug 2006, 10:18

Decagon wrote:
borinken25 wrote:If the answer was so obvious why did you started this thread?
Is like asking can prime Ricardo Lopez defeat George Foreman?
Answer this; are Saxton and DeMarco in Tito's leage? Please keep it real.
Is DLH a class C fighter?
So let me get this straight. According to some in here Basilio is a leage above Tito because he defeated Robinson. With the same reasoning Paul Pender, Denny Moyer, Phil Moyer, Terry Downes, Mick Leahy, Memo Ayon, and Stan Harrington should be in the HOF. Great and extraordinary fighters that also defeated Robinson.
Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.
Robinson was a lot older when he lost to those guys. I'd say that Saxton was about as good as Trinidad. Saxton was definitely a more skilled fighter, and had a better chin. Trinidad had an edge in power, but he never beat anyone as good as Kid Gavilan.

Decagon you are losing your credibility with that statement. He defeated Gavilan in a very controversial fight. I know you hate Tito but you are taking it to the insane level now. How can you compare Saxton to Trinidad? Common sense should prevail. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 12 Aug 2006, 14:30

Decagon wrote:Don't ignore the Boxers of the Past. Saxton was a tough guy, and if it came to a decision, his mafia connections would probably take care of that. They were even tougher than Don King. I'd say that Saxton would win by decision over 15 rounds over the plodding and chinny Trinidad.

With all due respect to boxers of the past.
At Welter:
Saxton in title fights 2W and 3L and NO KO’s and his biggest win probably was fixed.
Basilo in title fights 4W and 2L with 4 KO’s (2x DeMarco and 2x Saxton)
Trinidad in title fights 17-0 with 14 KO’s
Trinidad would KO Saxton and Basilio on the same night.
I do have a couple of questions.
When did you ever saw Trinidad hurt at 147lb?
If he was so chinny how come he was never stop at 147?
He went down, but what happen after that?
Like I said before Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 14 Aug 2006, 10:35

Decagon wrote:Trinidad was never a champion. He just held a couple of meaningless alphabet titles. In championship bouts, he's 0-1; the only championship fight he had was against Bernard Hopkins, and he got exposed as the one-dimensional banger he was. Saxton would have a good chance at doing the same.

Nice way to avoid answering the questions. So now Saxton is as good as Bernard Hopkins?

Tito didn’t need the belt, the belt needed Tito and that don’t change the fact the he would’ve KO Basilio and Saxton on the same night in a handicap match. Two KO’s for the price of one. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 14 Aug 2006, 11:44

Seamus wrote: If Felix Trinidad fought in Basilio's era, would he have had such a high KO percentage ?

I would say that he would have more Ko's because the gloves were much smaller, and even if they didn't stop fights so quick, you can only get knocked down so much.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Aug 2006, 17:28

Like I had said before: "Tito was NEVER in Carmen Basilio's class"...TITO WAS 2 NOTCHES BELOW this great fighter from Canastota.

Comparing Johnny Saxton and Tony DeMarco with Tito might be in their same level. And I do not doubt that Saxton and DeMarco beat this guy silly too. Now they want to compare Saxton with the likes of Oba Carr???

There is no doubt the QUALITY OF OPPOSITION that Carmen faced was at least 2 levels above the quality of opposition Tito faced.

Carmen Basilio opposition just at 147 pounds: Billy Graham, Kid Gavilan, Tony DeMarco, Johnny Saxton and Gil Turner. All of them would have beat Oscar DeLaHoya.

Felix "Tito" Trinidad at 147 pounds: Maurice Blocker??? Yory Boy Campas??? Oba Carr??? Luis Garcia??? Oscar DeLahoya is the ONLY WORTHY OPPONENT in his resume, and in the EYES OF MANY, HE LOST THAT FIGHT BY FAR.

And please, Tito defenders, do not add a DRUGGED AND WASHED UP Pernell Whitaker in his resume. This was not the dominant fighter that ruled the 90s decade when he faced Tito. And if you do, then I may have to add Ike Williams, Chuck Davey, Eddie Giosa and Lew Jenkins in Basilio's resume @ welter.

Still a washed up Williams, and a washed up Jenkins to that point were BETTER than the Blockers, Garcias, Campas and Carrs

Now if we add the competition at 160, I see Basilio fighting at least , at least 5 or 6 HALL OF FAMERS IN THEIR PRIMES BETWEEN 1950 AND 1960.

How can a ONE DIMENSIONAL FIGHTER like Tito beat Basilio??

I JUST CANNOT SEE IT.

That is pretty hard to phantom.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 14 Aug 2006, 18:06

elmersalsa wrote:Like I had said before: "Tito was NEVER in Carmen Basilio's class"...TITO WAS 2 NOTCHES BELOW this great fighter from Canastota.

Comparing Johnny Saxton and Tony DeMarco with Tito might be in their same level. And I do not doubt that Saxton and DeMarco beat this guy silly too. Now they want to compare Saxton with the likes of Oba Carr???

There is no doubt the QUALITY OF OPPOSITION that Carmen faced was at least 2 levels above the quality of opposition Tito faced.

Carmen Basilio opposition just at 147 pounds: Billy Graham, Kid Gavilan, Tony DeMarco, Johnny Saxton and Gil Turner. All of them would have beat Oscar DeLaHoya.

Felix "Tito" Trinidad at 147 pounds: Maurice Blocker??? Yory Boy Campas??? Oba Carr??? Luis Garcia??? Oscar DeLahoya is the ONLY WORTHY OPPONENT in his resume, and in the EYES OF MANY, HE LOST THAT FIGHT BY FAR.

And please, Tito defenders, do not add a DRUGGED AND WASHED UP Pernell Whitaker in his resume. This was not the dominant fighter that ruled the 90s decade when he faced Tito. And if you do, then I may have to add Ike Williams, Chuck Davey, Eddie Giosa and Lew Jenkins in Basilio's resume @ welter.

Still a washed up Williams, and a washed up Jenkins to that point were BETTER than the Blockers, Garcias, Campas and Carrs

Now if we add the competition at 160, I see Basilio fighting at least , at least 5 or 6 HALL OF FAMERS IN THEIR PRIMES BETWEEN 1950 AND 1960.

How can a ONE DIMENSIONAL FIGHTER like Tito beat Basilio??

I JUST CANNOT SEE IT.

That is pretty hard to phantom.

Everything you say is spot on Elmser, you know your boxing... Basilo was a formidable fighter at both 147 and 160 against much better opposition than Tito ever faced... to suggest Tito could have beaten Basilo much less stopped him is really a crime in my opinion!... some people need to revise their fight collections I think!

theone · Post by **theone** » 14 Aug 2006, 18:14

You could write it as big and bold as you want, its still nonsense.

Picking Saxton and Demarco to beat Trinidad silly is even sillier. Graham, Gavilan, would have lost to Delahoya and Demarco, Turner and Saxton would have gotten destroyed by him.

Basillio went 1-1-1 to an old Billy Graham and LOST to a Gavilan who was done. Ike Williams? Former great lightweight WAY past his prime.Lew Jenkins? Jenkins fought Basillio in his second to last fight andhadnt had a good win in almost a DECADE! Eddie Giosa? Eddie Giosa?! This is a big deal?You should be embarressed as a Basillio fan to bring this guy up, who happen to split a pair with Basillio.

To say that a the washed up Williams and Jenkins were better than Blocker,Garcia,Campas and Carr, is an extremely silly argument that your probably making just to get a rise out of someone.

How can a one dimensional fighter like Tito beat a fighter like Basillio. Easy, since Basillios style suits Tito's one dimension style to a tee.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 15 Aug 2006, 11:02

theone wrote:You could write it as big and bold as you want, its still nonsense.

Picking Saxton and Demarco to beat Trinidad silly is even sillier. Graham, Gavilan, would have lost to Delahoya and Demarco, Turner and Saxton would have gotten destroyed by him.

Basillio went 1-1-1 to an old Billy Graham and LOST to a Gavilan who was done. Ike Williams? Former great lightweight WAY past his prime.Lew Jenkins? Jenkins fought Basillio in his second to last fight andhadnt had a good win in almost a DECADE! Eddie Giosa? Eddie Giosa?! This is a big deal?You should be embarressed as a Basillio fan to bring this guy up, who happen to split a pair with Basillio.

To say that a the washed up Williams and Jenkins were better than Blocker,Garcia,Campas and Carr, is an extremely silly argument that your probably making just to get a rise out of someone.

How can a one dimensional fighter like Tito beat a fighter like Basillio. Easy, since Basillios style suits Tito's one dimension style to a tee.

I’m glad someone in here knows his boxing.

Suggesting that Saxton and Demarco would’ve beat Trinidad or that they were in his league really shows the lack of knowledge of the sweet science. Basilio style was taylor made for Trinidad and Tito feasted on those types of fighters. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds. And Trinidad would’ve KO both Demarco and Saxton on the same night in a handicap match.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 15 Aug 2006, 11:10

Decagon wrote:Yeah, and Trinidad beat an ancient, coked-out lightweight in Whitaker, lost to another lightweight in De la Hoya, beat a super featherweight in Camacho, and a mediocre fighter in Campas. The only solid win on his resume at 147 is Oba Carr. He has nowhere near as good a record of fighting the best as Basilio did. Trinidad was a scared, little bitch who hid behind the IBF title and made meaningless defenses, usually getting knocked on his ass in the process. Billy Graham would box circles around him.

Shows your true knowledge of the sweet science. That little bitch did accomplish a lot more than you ever dream and he would’ve KO you and Basilio on the same night in a handicap match.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 15 Aug 2006, 17:08

Under this theory, Basilio would only be able to accomplish roughly what Vargas accomplished vs Tito. Something competitive but ultimately coming up short.

I kept running this over in my mind and it didn't seem right so I submitted it to the mighty Univac computer....but when I put in the data that "theone" indicates would be the likely outcome, it began sputtering and sparking and stalled and then simply shut down. But as strange as it sounds it seemed to let out with a sound that was remarkably similar to a laugh right before it konked out. I could have sworn the lights almost seemed to do a "roll" like one of our famous smilies we use here.

It's all very spooky. I'm sort of afraid to approach it until it completely cools off at this point.

theone · Post by **theone** » 15 Aug 2006, 17:36

Under this theory, Basilio would only be able to accomplish roughly what Vargas accomplished vs Tito. Something competitive but ultimately coming up short.

Absolutely. But the stoppage would most likely come on cuts or swelling.

I kept running this over in my mind and it didn't seem right so I submitted it to the mighty Univac computer....but when I put in the data that "theone" indicates would be the likely outcome, it began sputtering and sparking and stalled and then simply shut down. But as strange as it sounds it seemed to let out with a sound that was remarkably similar to a laugh right before it konked out. I could have sworn the lights almost seemed to do a "roll" like one of our famous smilies we use here.

Wel looks like your Univac needs to be set on on the "realistic" outcome setting; not on the "romantized version" setting. Try it again and let me know what happens.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 15 Aug 2006, 17:39

Will Do! I'll get right on it as soon as it cools down a bit. Ooops I may have made a strategic error. I assumed the time of the fight would take place in the era where men were men and they didnt' stop fights just because your eye was hanging out on your cheekbone or some other insignificant scrape was evident.

theone · Post by **theone** » 15 Aug 2006, 17:55

Will Do! I'll get right on it as soon as it cools down a bit. Ooops I may have made a strategic error. I assumed the time of the fight would take place in the era where men were men and they didnt' stop fights just because your eye was hanging out on your cheekbone or some other insignificant scrape was evident.

Jesus, we dont want the fight to happen in that era! Basillio might bleed to death from the shredding his face would receive!

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 16 Aug 2006, 09:02

theone wrote:
Will Do! I'll get right on it as soon as it cools down a bit. Ooops I may have made a strategic error. I assumed the time of the fight would take place in the era where men were men and they didnt' stop fights just because your eye was hanging out on your cheekbone or some other insignificant scrape was evident.
Jesus, we dont want the fight to happen in that era! Basillio might bleed to death from the shredding his face would receive!

oh contrare' theone......Basilio would not bleed to death though bleed he would....well before this titan ran out of championship blood his opponent would have drowned in same. Based on no apparent defense and near lack of heartbeat the ref would finally intervene calling a halt to the action raising Carmen's hand in victory. Could go down as the first defeat by drowning recorded in boxing history.

Carmen would not look handsome in his victory but he would be smiling though whether it was recognizable as a smile could be a point of debate.

In those days substance often trumped style.

theone · Post by **theone** » 16 Aug 2006, 09:32

Well, Boxbuzz I believe we have reached the point in this topic were we have to agree to disagree. We both are obviously resolute in our respected opinions and could go on like this forever.
Also, being no match for you in the eloquency department, I think its irrelavant for me to continue this debate.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 16 Aug 2006, 09:56

maybe the more important question here is ...is it a good thing that matches are stopped well before the "basilio type" victories can be obtained? I'm all for safety and at the same time I am sort of nostalgic for the days that guys could take bigger risks.

I'ts probably all for the best but I miss that level of fighting that is pretty much no longer allowed.

theone...honestly this fight would be competitive and I would hedge my bets to some degree. The problem for me on some of these theoreticals is that I happen to agree with some of your basic assumptions.

For example I detect in your overall viewpoint that you sense that boxing itself for the most part is producing greater fighters (though there are some periods that are exceptions to the rule) and I tend to agree...so I had to really take that into account in this one. Also you make a good point that Carmen would not allowed to be hurt as badly as what it takes to typically get his attention. So in a modern day matchup Tito would have an advantage and I might bet on him in todays climate. So I was serious about the old days Carmen would have a better than even chance.

By the way was there a preferred catchweight in this theoretical? And who do you think would gain the most advantage at middle vs welter. I'm not asking for an outcome, just who gains advantage relatively speaking in the two weight catagories.

theone · Post by **theone** » 16 Aug 2006, 10:14

For example I detect in your overall viewpoint that you sense that boxing itself for the most part is producing greater fighters (though there are some periods that are exceptions to the rule) and I tend to agree...

Acutually Buzz, I was judging this fight based on styles more than anything. I can picture a prime Galivan frustrating Tito and maybe taking a very busy decision over him, but I cant picture Basillio overcoming Trinidads murderous pinpoint punching with his style of fighting. Add to that the fact that Basillio was only a fairly good puncher at best and would have to land alot of punches to ko Trinidad. I dont see him being able to stand in there and taking the amount of punches Trinidad would surely land for him to score a knockout.

There wouldnt be a need for a catchweight I believe. 147lbs. would be the perfect weight limit for this match.

theone · Post by **theone** » 16 Aug 2006, 10:17

And who do you think would gain the most advantage at middle vs welter. I'm not asking for an outcome, just who gains advantage relatively speaking in the two weight catagories.

I see the fight going much the same way, middleweight or Welter.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 16 Aug 2006, 11:38

so as you look over carmens record you see no pinpoint heavy hitters that he ultimately perservered over? At least none that can compare to Tito? I'm not settin you up here it's a serious question.

theone · Post by **theone** » 16 Aug 2006, 11:50

With Titos type fire power? No, I dont believe he did. If you know of any please let me know.
I believe the closes he came to fighting someone anywhere near as powerful was Robinson, and Ray didnt have the hands speed nor did he fight with the same fury as he did as a welterweight. If Basillio hadnt beaten a past his prime Robinson his name would hardly come up in these discussions.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 16 Aug 2006, 12:30

Decagon wrote:
borinken25 wrote:
Shows your true knowledge of the sweet science. That little bitch did accomplish a lot more than you ever dream and he would’ve KO you and Basilio on the same night in a handicap match.
Well, I have a high school education, and I can talk without slurring my words, so I've already accomplished more than Felix Trinidad.

That still don’t change the fact that he would’ve KO you and Basilio on the same night in a handicap match and then he would’ve go back home to swim in the money that you could only dream about.

The fact of the matter is that Trinidad’s power makes the difference. Basilio at not even 5’7 in order to connect would’ve needed to come inside in the range of Trinidad’s power and I don’t think I have to say what would’ve happen. Basilio is an all-time great but his style was taylor made for Trinidad and facts don’t lye. Again Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

jsmoke · Post by **jsmoke** » 16 Aug 2006, 13:14

tito trinidad has a suspect chin to me....i've seen basillio against robinson i think and beat him right? i pick basilio early...